Porcupine Freedom Festival - Now Accepting BTC for Registration

[hazek]

Against my better judgment..  

We don't need economic calculation when we have actual physical and scientific based calculation. Economists will tell you that the world is several quadrillion dollars in debt. Science will show empirically that we can provide for the basic needs of all people. Which ideology do you want to be dominant in your life, or your children's life?

How about neither?

A vote for theocracy then?

Again: No.

Alien overlords?

I'm glad you recognize how silly you sound.

You're the one uncontributing to the conversation.

Why? Because I'm not willing to be constrained by your ignorance?

Look, I know it causes too much cognitive dissonance to you when I show you what the reality really is and when this reality is conflicting with your beliefs neuroscience teaches us it's simply too much pain for you to be rational and change your belief and you're going to irrationally defend it instead. So I'm not going to engage with you beyond this post because it's pointless and I know you'll stick with your beliefs no matter what I say or what evidence I show to you.

But when you present as our only options a "resource based economy" regulated by scientific calculations vs a market economy regulated by a central authority I'm not willing to ignore the fact that there's more options, one of them being a market economy regulated exclusively by consumers in this economy (usually called a free market). But of course that's a pipe dream whereas your resource based economy is not, right?  

Anyway I know you are unable to listen and swallow this right now so I'll give you some more cognitive dissonance just for shits and giggles and I'll ask you again: If you can come up with a valid example of how the world could get into such huge debt using only bitcoins as money, an example that will make sense to at least 10people on this forum, I'll send you all my BTC.

The in-elasticity of bitcoin disallows such gross debt creation.

WOW progress.

You seem to ignore the reality that our society started on gold, with similar characteristics, and has devolved into the systems and mechanisms we have today. That's the reality I recognize, which you seem unwilling or unable to.

I see the same reality! But.. I investigated this reality and tried to understand the fundamental driving force of everything: cause and effect.

Now let's see if you can develop a hot streak here.. Can you answer me: Why or more precisely what was the reason for this reality, although it's starting point being on gold, for this reality to end up, where it ended up?

[LightRider]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society. Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another, and will perpetuate the problems we have today.

[hazek]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society.

What exactly is this "system" you're talking about?

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

Can you prove this mere statement with evidence?

[LightRider]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society.

What exactly is this "system" you're talking about?

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

Can you prove this mere statement with evidence?

A monetary system.

Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none. Bitcoin favors those with computing resources, network connectivity and electricity over those who have none. Dollars favor those with printing presses and guns over those who have none. Seashells favor those who live near the coast over those who live elsewhere. Leaves favor those who live in deciduous forests over those who live in deserts.

[hazek]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society.

What exactly is this "system" you're talking about?

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

Can you prove this mere statement with evidence?

A monetary system.

Yes! You're doing great! You are very close to understanding the problem now. Just answer one more question: How did this monetary system come to be and how come it still exists? Remember you need to understand cause and effect to really understand our reality.

Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none. Bitcoin favors those with computing resources, network connectivity and electricity over those who have none. Dollars favor those with printing presses and guns over those who have none. Seashells favor those who live near the coast over those who live elsewhere. Leaves favor those who live in deciduous forests over those who live in deserts.

No, no.. I asked for evidence, not more mere statements. For instance when you make a statement "Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none." you have to show evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. For all I know I could have easy access to a gold mine but if I have to dig 5km below earth and nearly die digging it up I don't see how that favors me over someone else who can simply work on a field in no real danger, and sell me their crops for my gold..

The same goes for all the other forms of money you listed. You need to show me evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. Merely saying it is not evidence.

[LightRider]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society.

What exactly is this "system" you're talking about?

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

Can you prove this mere statement with evidence?

A monetary system.

Yes! You're doing great! You are very close to understanding the problem now. Just answer one more question: How did this monetary system come to be and how come it still exists? Remember you need to understand cause and effect to really understand our reality.

Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none. Bitcoin favors those with computing resources, network connectivity and electricity over those who have none. Dollars favor those with printing presses and guns over those who have none. Seashells favor those who live near the coast over those who live elsewhere. Leaves favor those who live in deciduous forests over those who live in deserts.

No, no.. I asked for evidence, not more mere statements. For instance when you make a statement "Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none." you have to show evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. For all I know I could have easy access to a gold mine but if I have to dig 5km below earth and nearly die digging it up I don't see how that favors me over someone else who can simply work on a field in no real danger, and sell me their crops for my gold..

The same goes for all the other forms of money you listed. You need to show me evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. Merely saying it is not evidence.

In a world filled with more ignorance than information, simple commodities began to hold higher significance due to the properties that made them useful as measures of value and/or labor. The human capacity for neurosis allowed for the more acquisitive, dominant and influential to formalize various systems of such value measure, and the intellectuals of the time supported such established power bases. Those who disagreed where either slaughtered or marginalized. This continues throughout history, with each new iteration of the basic premise, until today, with the major variable of technical and scientific information becoming ever more significant than it has ever been in human history, and as such, we can recognize the diminishing utility and in fact major harm that continuing the use of such systems are exhibiting.

To be more succinct, information favors those who have it over those who do not. Your demands for "evidence" on this assertion indicates either a lack of intellectual honesty or a fundamental misunderstanding of currency.

[hazek]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society.

What exactly is this "system" you're talking about?

A monetary system.

Yes! You're doing great! You are very close to understanding the problem now. Just answer one more question: How did this monetary system come to be and how come it still exists? Remember you need to understand cause and effect to really understand our reality.

In a world filled with more ignorance than information, simple commodities began to hold higher significance due to the properties that made them useful as measures of value and/or labor. The human capacity for neurosis allowed for the more acquisitive, dominant and influential to formalize various systems of such value measure, and the intellectuals of the time supported such established power bases. Those who disagreed where either slaughtered or marginalized.

YES! Bravo! You have just discovered the major cause for the current monetary system! And I agree with you 100%. Namely: Some people took it upon themselves to rule over everyone else within which they also set up rules about money and used violence to enforce them. This is how the current fraudulent monetary system came to be and this is the real cause and therefor the real problem! I congratulate you for discovering this!

I don't even need to point out how obvious it is some people recognized this system for the fraud that it is since these are the same people you correctly pointed out were "either slaughtered or marginalized".

Also a quick side note: No one forces people to accept bitcoins much like in the beginning no one forced people to accept some weight of precious metals in exchange for some value. And this is how a market regulated by market consumers operates.. as oppose to what you discovered caused today's problems - a market regulated by a violent central authority.

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

Can you prove this mere statement with evidence?

Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none. Bitcoin favors those with computing resources, network connectivity and electricity over those who have none. Dollars favor those with printing presses and guns over those who have none. Seashells favor those who live near the coast over those who live elsewhere. Leaves favor those who live in deciduous forests over those who live in deserts.

No, no.. I asked for evidence, not more mere statements. For instance when you make a statement "Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none." you have to show evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. For all I know I could have easy access to a gold mine but if I have to dig 5km below earth and nearly die digging it up I don't see how that favors me over someone else who can simply work on a field in no real danger, and sell me their crops for my gold..

The same goes for all the other forms of money you listed. You need to show me evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. Merely saying it is not evidence.

To be more succinct, information favors those who have it over those who do not. Your demands for "evidence" on this assertion indicates either a lack of intellectual honesty or a fundamental misunderstanding of currency.

Ahh I knew we were doing too good for your cognitive dissonance not to kick in sooner rather than later. Of course when you, Mr. LightRider, tell little ole me how the world works, I should trust and believe you instead of question and request evidence to support your assertions. I'm afraid the human nature of our brain has again got the best of you and I cannot continue if you aren't willing to produce something other than your opinion as support to your main premise: "Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another"

[LightRider]

A system that promotes acquisitiveness, dominance and inequality will not lead to a better society.

What exactly is this "system" you're talking about?

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

Can you prove this mere statement with evidence?

A monetary system.

Yes! You're doing great! You are very close to understanding the problem now. Just answer one more question: How did this monetary system come to be and how come it still exists? Remember you need to understand cause and effect to really understand our reality.

Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none. Bitcoin favors those with computing resources, network connectivity and electricity over those who have none. Dollars favor those with printing presses and guns over those who have none. Seashells favor those who live near the coast over those who live elsewhere. Leaves favor those who live in deciduous forests over those who live in deserts.

No, no.. I asked for evidence, not more mere statements. For instance when you make a statement "Gold favors those with easier access to it as opposed to those who have none." you have to show evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. For all I know I could have easy access to a gold mine but if I have to dig 5km below earth and nearly die digging it up I don't see how that favors me over someone else who can simply work on a field in no real danger, and sell me their crops for my gold..

The same goes for all the other forms of money you listed. You need to show me evidence how easy access translates into favoritism. Merely saying it is not evidence.

In a world filled with more ignorance than information, simple commodities began to hold higher significance due to the properties that made them useful as measures of value and/or labor. The human capacity for neurosis allowed for the more acquisitive, dominant and influential to formalize various systems of such value measure, and the intellectuals of the time supported such established power bases. Those who disagreed where either slaughtered or marginalized.

YES! Bravo! You have just discovered the major cause for the current monetary system! And I agree with you 100%. Namely: Some people took it upon themselves to rule over everyone else within which they also set up rules about money and used violence to enforce them. This is how the current fraudulent monetary system came to be and this is the real cause and therefor the real problem! I congratulate you for discovering this!

I don't even need to point out how obvious it is some people recognized this system for the fraud that it is since these are the same people you correctly pointed out were "either slaughtered or marginalized".

Also a quick side note: No one forces people to accept bitcoins much like in the beginning no one forced people to accept some weight of precious metals in exchange for some value. And this is how a market regulated by market consumers operates.. as oppose to what you discovered caused today's problems - a market regulated by a violent central authority.

To be more succinct, information favors those who have it over those who do not. Your demands for "evidence" on this assertion indicates either a lack of intellectual honesty or a fundamental misunderstanding of currency.

Ahh I knew we were doing too good for your cognitive dissonance not to kick in sooner rather than later. Of course when you, Mr. LightRider, tell little ole me how the world works, I should trust and believe you instead of question and request evidence to support your assertions. I'm afraid the human nature of our brain has again got the best of you and I cannot continue if you aren't willing to produce something other than your opinion as support to your main premise: "Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another"

What evidence can I present that would satisfy you?

[hazek]

Simply prove with empiric evidence that your statement...

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

... holds up. Real world examples would be fine.

[LightRider]

Simply prove with empiric evidence that your statement...

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

... holds up. Real world examples would be fine.

Can you provide a counter example? Your earlier scenario regarding your 5km gold mine and the farmer didn't seem to include the person who actually has easy access to gold. I assume that is a mistake on your part as opposed to a deliberate evasion of the premise of the assertion.

Edit:
I was going to wait for you to come to this conclusion, but I'll state it now. Neither of us can give physical evidence to such a claim, because currency is merely an idea, and as such, claims made against it fail to have the basic necessities for falsefiability that substantial claims have. This is the reason religious arguments are intractable as well. Neither of us can be satisfied on the question because we can each claim that the other lacks the ability to prove its case. We would both likely agree that circling this drain would not be productive uses of our time. That is unless you disagree.

[hazek]

Simply prove with empiric evidence that your statement...

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

... holds up. Real world examples would be fine.

Can you provide a counter example?

Do you mean the counter claim?: Some currencies do not favor one arbitrary group of people over another.

Your earlier scenario regarding your 5km gold mine and the farmer didn't seem to include the person who actually has easy access to gold. I assume that is a mistake on your part as opposed to a deliberate lack of acknowledgement of the assertion.

My example I admit I made an assumption what exactly you meant with easy access. For example I assumed you meant owning a property that happens to have gold ore underground. To me this is easy access because it's already on my property and someone else would need to buy it from me first before they could get access to mining that gold.

I really hope you didn't mean easy access in the sense that it is as easily to obtain as walking up to it and picking it up with almost no effort. Rocks have this property and somehow they are not currency and in fact I don't know of any voluntarily valued currency that shares the property of that type of easy access.

So please clarify what exactly you mean with easy access.

[hazek]

Edit:
I was going to wait for you to come to this conclusion, but I'll state it now. Neither of us can give physical evidence to such a claim, because currency is merely an idea, and as such, claims made against it fail to have the basic necessities for falsefiability that substantial claims have. This is the reason religious arguments are intractable as well. Neither of us can be satisfied on the question because we can each claim that the other lacks the ability to prove its case. We would both likely agree that circling this drain would not be productive uses of our time. That is unless you disagree.

As a matter of fact I do disagree. It's easy to prove a voluntary currency does not favor one arbitrary group over another once one learns how an economy grows and why it doesn't.  

[LightRider]

Edit:
I was going to wait for you to come to this conclusion, but I'll state it now. Neither of us can give physical evidence to such a claim, because currency is merely an idea, and as such, claims made against it fail to have the basic necessities for falsefiability that substantial claims have. This is the reason religious arguments are intractable as well. Neither of us can be satisfied on the question because we can each claim that the other lacks the ability to prove its case. We would both likely agree that circling this drain would not be productive uses of our time. That is unless you disagree.

As a matter of fact I do disagree. It's easy to prove a voluntary currency does not favor one arbitrary group over another once one learns how an economy grows and why it doesn't.  

So you would agree with the assertion that those who have access to information are favored over those who don't?

[hazek]

I don't know what this has to do with your assertion that

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

but no, I don't necessarily agree. Have you heard of the expression ignorance is bliss? I guess what I'm trying to say is it depends on the circumstances..

But again I don't understand what this has to do with a voluntary currency not favoring an arbitrary group of people.

[LightRider]

I don't know what this has to do with your assertion that

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

but no, I don't necessarily agree. Have you heard of the expression ignorance is bliss? I guess what I'm trying to say is it depends on the circumstances..

But again I don't understand what this has to do with a voluntary currency not favoring an arbitrary group of people.

I'm glad that you're beginning to feel uncomfortable now and seemingly struggling with your self contradiction. Hopefully you have learned something.

[hazek]

I don't know what this has to do with your assertion that

Any currency favors one arbitrary group of people over another

but no, I don't necessarily agree. Have you heard of the expression ignorance is bliss? I guess what I'm trying to say is it depends on the circumstances..

But again I don't understand what this has to do with a voluntary currency not favoring an arbitrary group of people.

I'm glad that you're beginning to feel uncomfortable now and seemingly struggling with your self contradiction. Hopefully you have learned something.

Ok cognitive dissonance must have again impaired your rational thought because you stopped making sense in your last two posts.