Purgatory

[Mr.Bitty]

I like the Book of Esther.  There's a lot to be learned from that story, but that does not mean we should do everything each of the characters in the story does.  I don't think we would want to our presidents choose a first lady in the same manner King Xerxes chose Esther.  Nor do I think that we would want to have a swordsman standing next to our president ready to kill anyone, including the first lady, who approached him without being sent for.....unless he offered that person his scepter as a signal for the swordsman to let that person live.

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[Rigon]

I like the Book of Esther.  There's a lot to be learned from that story, but that does not mean we should do everything each of the characters in the story does.  I don't think we would want to our presidents choose a first lady in the same manner King Xerxes chose Esther.  Nor do I think that we would want to have a swordsman standing next to our president ready to kill anyone, including the first lady, who approached him without being sent for.....unless he offered that person his scepter as a signal for the swordsman to let that person live.

I understand...just the bits that you find acceptable.  I ask again (and again) with no answer.  Since there are so many varying interpretations in conflict...who is correct?  Everyone or no one?.  I understand the inability to answer this unanswerable question as basically makes organized religion hogwash.

[noviapriani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews. 

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

So who is correct?  Everyone?  Do you lilke the other parts of the Old testament as well?  If so, when can we get together and stone my neighbor for shaving his beard?

The Old Testament is full of stories that tell the history of Judaism.  There's a lot to be learned from the history, but that doesn't mean that the laws of Moses for the Israelites traveling through a desert after escaping from slavery should be adopted by us today.

On the contrary. True, the OT is full of stories, but not history.  History is history because it comes from reliable sources that can be verified by other accounts or actual physical evidence the events occurred. There is no good reason to think the Bible Stories are anything other than myth/folklore.

[noviapriani]

I like the Book of Esther.  There's a lot to be learned from that story, but that does not mean we should do everything each of the characters in the story does.  I don't think we would want to our presidents choose a first lady in the same manner King Xerxes chose Esther.  Nor do I think that we would want to have a swordsman standing next to our president ready to kill anyone, including the first lady, who approached him without being sent for.....unless he offered that person his scepter as a signal for the swordsman to let that person live.

If you wish to learn more about such things, just research Bible Minimalists whose goals are to seek actual physical proof the Bible stories are true. Often these Bible Minimalists are quite biased in their pursuit of the "truth", but just as often they will be the first to admit that they have yet to discover anything that demonstrates the OT Bible stories are anything other than myth and/or legend.

But that is beside the point.

[BADecker]

Actually if you follow the rules, there is only one interpretation...

the rules;

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That's the point and I are making is, there is no "rule" that says that we can't change the "rules" if we don't like them.
It's not like we're dealing with a scientific formula, or a testable theory in which, repeating the same experiment under the same conditions should always yield the same results.
You're talking about religious beliefs that have no more basis in reality than any other superstitious beliefs or fairy tale.

Wrong. One of the reasons scientists wanted to explode the atomic bomb and then the hydrogen bomb, was to see if they could break the rules. Well they couldn't. the rules couldn't really be streched or bent.

Just because you or I want to use the rules of our freedom to make up and call all kinds of things rules that are not, doesn't mean that we have made new rules.

[BADecker]

Life on earth is the closest thing to purgatory that there is.  

[Mr.Bitty]

Life on earth is the closes thing to purgatory that there is.   

Yeah your kinda right,here on earth we are every second surrounded by good and evil ,we are half good and half evil....maybe this is the purgatory.

[sana8410]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews. 

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

So who is correct?  Everyone?  Do you lilke the other parts of the Old testament as well?  If so, when can we get together and stone my neighbor for shaving his beard?

The Old Testament is included also in this - but, as with anything, who is the audience that a particular section is written to?

For example, as a rough illustration, the US constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.  It is essentially a new testament with the states, that included some elements from before, added some others, excluded some others.  (As an aside, that too can get replaced one day).

[BADecker]

For example, as a rough illustration, the US constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.  It is essentially a new testament with the states, that included some elements from before, added some others, excluded some others.  (As an aside, that too can get replaced one day).

Actually, the Articles of Confederation have never been repealed, have they? So, they are still active for anyone who wants to use them.

[noviapriani]

For example, as a rough illustration, the US constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.  It is essentially a new testament with the states, that included some elements from before, added some others, excluded some others.  (As an aside, that too can get replaced one day).

Actually, the Articles of Confederation have never been repealed, have they? So, they are still active for anyone who wants to use them.

The US Constitution superseded/replaced all US State Constitution when it was ratified and adopted as the Law of The Land in The United States of America.

[noviapriani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews. 

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

So who is correct?  Everyone?  Do you lilke the other parts of the Old testament as well?  If so, when can we get together and stone my neighbor for shaving his beard?

The Old Testament is included also in this - but, as with anything, who is the audience that a particular section is written to?

For example, as a rough illustration, the US constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.  It is essentially a new testament with the states, that included some elements from before, added some others, excluded some others.  (As an aside, that too can get replaced one day).

The Christian Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is a collection of fairy tales.
You could add even more testaments to the Bible, but it would not be law, and it would never be anything more than a collection of fairy tales.

[BADecker]

For example, as a rough illustration, the US constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.  It is essentially a new testament with the states, that included some elements from before, added some others, excluded some others.  (As an aside, that too can get replaced one day).

Actually, the Articles of Confederation have never been repealed, have they? So, they are still active for anyone who wants to use them.

The US Constitution superseded/replaced all US State Constitution when it was ratified and adopted as the Law of The Land in The United States of America.

That doesn't have anything to do with repealing the Articles. The offices of the Articles are empty. But if people decided they wanted to fill those offices again, all they would have to do is get into those offices in a way similar to the way it was done the first time. If that happened, the U.S. Constitution might be superseded.

[BADecker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

 Actually, the concept of Purgatory dates back even before Christ.  Praying for the dead and their afterlife purification is found in history of Jews.  

"The descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[2] Advocates of belief in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-26 and 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[2] "


Medievalist Jacques Le Goff defines the "birth of purgatory", i.e. the conception of purgatory as a physical place, rather than merely as a state, as occurring between 1170 and 1200.[38] Le Goff acknowledged that the notion of purification after death, without the medieval notion of a physical place, existed in antiquity, arguing specifically that Clement of Alexandria, and his pupil Origen of Alexandria, derived their view from a combination of biblical teachings, though he considered vague concepts of purifying and punishing fire to predate Christianity.[39] Le Goff also considered Peter the Lombard (d. 1160), in expounding on the teachings of St. Augustine and Gregory the "Great, to have contributed significantly to the birth of purgatory in the sense of a physical place.

While the idea of purgatory as a process of cleansing thus dated back to early Christianity, the 12th century was the heyday of medieval otherworld-journey narratives such as the Irish Visio Tnugdali, and of pilgrims' tales about St. Patrick's Purgatory, a cavelike entrance to purgatory on a remote island in Ireland.[40] The legend of St Patrick's Purgatory (Tractatus de Purgatorio Sancti Patricii) written in that century by Hugh of Saltry, also known as Henry of Sawtry, was "part of a huge, repetitive contemporary genre of literature of which the most familiar today is Dante's";[41] another is the Visio Tnugdali. Other legends localized the entrance to Purgatory in places such as a cave on the volcanic Mount Etna in Sicily.[42] Thus the idea of purgatory as a physical place became widespread on a popular level, and was defended also by some theologians.

So who is correct?  Everyone?  Do you lilke the other parts of the Old testament as well?  If so, when can we get together and stone my neighbor for shaving his beard?

The Old Testament is included also in this - but, as with anything, who is the audience that a particular section is written to?

For example, as a rough illustration, the US constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation.  It is essentially a new testament with the states, that included some elements from before, added some others, excluded some others.  (As an aside, that too can get replaced one day).

The Christian Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is a collection of fairy tales.
You could add even more testaments to the Bible, but it would not be law, and it would never be anything more than a collection of fairy tales.

Except for one thing. Strong Jewish tradition that has been handed down from parents to children for hundreds of years says that Bible - particularly the Old Testament - is witnesses recording events they saw or received from God. Are the Jews who would swear to the O.T. as witness reports in the majority? Probably not. But neither are the scientists who make a lot of goofy claims about the science they have discovered.

[CozyLife]

Religion is just a way to control you. Think about this. If religion showed you freedom to do whatever you wish to, would you join it? Well, that's called Satanism and people despise Satanism simply because of the controlling religions not wanting to lose their control over you. If you want to control someone, you paint yourself in a positive light and others in a bad light, then you become the solution to all of their problems so they will do whatever you want them to. That's the whole reason that religion exists in this world.

[BADecker]

Religion is just a way to control you. Think about this. If religion showed you freedom to do whatever you wish to, would you join it? Well, that's called Satanism and people despise Satanism simply because of the controlling religions not wanting to lose their control over you. If you want to control someone, you paint yourself in a positive light and others in a bad light, then you become the solution to all of their problems so they will do whatever you want them to. That's the whole reason that religion exists in this world.

You are so good.

Nobody has the ability to control himself/herself. it's only a question of which religion one is going to take part of. NOTHING gives you the ability to do whatever you wish. For example. How many people would like to go to the moon or Mars? How many people have the freedom to get there? Yet, how many people have hope in some moon or Mars program? Science is a religion. It sure isn't freedom, although it tempts us with a little bit of stuff that looks like freedom.

You are sooooo good pointing out what religions do to us. Yet most of the religions that say that they are religions are way more truthful than the religions that try to hide the fact that they are religions, like science and government. Personally I would rather stick with the religions that are more honest. Even my personal beliefs (which are different from those of everyone else) may not be true. I want what is true, and science and politics, simply because they do not state that they are religions, prove to me thereby that they are not true.

[sickhouse]

Me thinks you go to an alternate universe instantly when you die. Either that or you rot in the ground, but watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRrCYPxD0I and you can feel secure about dying again... Death is not an experience so how was life before you were born? A long fucking drag or nothingness? What was it like to wake up after never having gone to sleep? That's what happend when you were born.