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Author Topic: [XMR] vs [BBR] - Fight!! - CryptoNote War  (Read 6434 times)
windjc
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September 27, 2014, 01:42:07 AM
 #41

OP, you forgot this comparison:

Mining fee for dev (aka, tax on the stupid  Tongue): 
  • BBR: 1% mandatory
  • XMR: 0%

Advantage: XMR

If you mine on a pool, you cannot turn off this fee. Cunning, this CZ dude, he realizes most will mine at pools and won't be able to turn off.
 
Now the fee itself is not bad, devs need to be compensated; but the fact it was enabled since the start of the coin is. It's more respectable to have this fee be decided by the community or from donation, which is what XMR is doing.  Admittedly volunteered donation is not too effective though.

Also, CZ being a single dev possesses a serious single point of failure for BBR. God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future, who will carry the torch? windjc? slapper?

Nice attempt at FUD. Actually, miners can vote to turn this off at any time. There are multiple developers in the BBR eco-system. Do some research. Smiley
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September 27, 2014, 02:06:06 AM
 #42

gavin wannabe deleted

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commits?author=fluffypony

Nice job modifying readme files, txt files and merging PRs 72 times. When you write an iota of worthwhile code come back and talk to us. Until then enjoy playing wannabe admin. I really don't want to bash other genuine coders., they don't need to dragged into this.

Rfreeman, good job.

Edit: omg you really didn't say Gavin there did you. This is going to be fun popcorn time in future.  Tongue

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September 27, 2014, 02:09:00 AM
 #43

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure typical blockchain pruning methods that might work on Bitcoin don't work on the CN coins. The developers are going to have to invent novel ways to reduce the size. Although I've heard it mentioned that anything more than linear reduction is probably impossible, but that was a while ago.

If only there was already a CN coin that has implemented this   Wink


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September 27, 2014, 02:11:48 AM
 #44

God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future

Yah God forbid, who will the devs of a competing go to first to seek help  Roll Eyes Risto might start getting really anxious  Roll Eyes

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September 27, 2014, 02:15:28 AM
 #45

God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future

Yah God forbid,

This is a truly ridiculous argument. I mean, what do we have so far, - making fun of the name, saying the dev could die, not understanding basic BBR functionality. This should be a serious discussion, not a bunch of silliness.
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September 27, 2014, 02:37:01 AM
 #46

You know what I don't like in BBR? Some of its vocal supporters. Look above and despair.

Thanks a lot for raising the level OP, because all others are so obnoxious it doesn't really lure. Crypto Zoidberg does a fantastic job, but the community...well. I can't say I saw the best of it in the last weeks.

I own both XMR and BBR btw, so don't bother accusing me of taking a side. I want both to succeed, unlike all those unbearable warmongers that can't appreciate competition.

It's really pathetic seeing these BBR guys out trolling XMR. Instead of trying to build something up, they just want to tear others down. Windjc and slapper are pretty good at that though, seeing as how the two of them both played major roles in destroying the BBR community.
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September 27, 2014, 03:17:44 AM
 #47

You know what I don't like in BBR? Some of its vocal supporters. Look above and despair.

Thanks a lot for raising the level OP, because all others are so obnoxious it doesn't really lure. Crypto Zoidberg does a fantastic job, but the community...well. I can't say I saw the best of it in the last weeks.

I own both XMR and BBR btw, so don't bother accusing me of taking a side. I want both to succeed, unlike all those unbearable warmongers that can't appreciate competition.

It's really pathetic seeing these BBR guys out trolling XMR. Instead of trying to build something up, they just want to tear others down. Windjc and slapper are pretty good at that though, seeing as how the two of them both played major roles in destroying the BBR community.

This thread was created by someone who obviously saw the tech differences between BBR and XMR. I'm not trolling anything, simply giving responses to things that are false or irrelevant.

You seem to think that the BBR community has been destroyed somehow? In my opinion, its stronger than ever. Seriously. I'm getting several PMs a day of people wanting to join and get involved with the promotion and development. Also having a lot of discussions about investments and development applications with others that are contacting me.

Of course, as a "marketing director" I also get to be the punching bag of numerous XMR supporters, but I'm okay with that. I am fairly reluctant to carry a title at all, because I truly believe in the decentralized nature of the BBR community, especially given that it is state-of-the-art anon tech.

And despite what you may think I have absolutely nothing personal against anyone from XMR. People work hard and tirelessly in that community for their community and I applaud that. I work hard to and I respect that in others. I also dont think the leadership of XMR are bad in anyway. I do think they are competitive and I do think many have tried to do what they can to crush CZ and the BBR community because they see it, rightfully so, as a serious threat.

However, I am dedicated to dispelling any of the myths about BBR that have been perpetuated by XMR supporters over the last 5 months.

But trust me, there is a lot of "building up" going on right now.
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September 27, 2014, 03:29:33 AM
Last edit: September 27, 2014, 04:00:57 AM by iCEBREAKER
 #48

{stuff}

Meh, needs moar DarkNote.  Its market cap is between XMR and BBR.

XDN has anon msg.  That's just cool.


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September 27, 2014, 03:36:30 AM
 #49

i used to mine a bit of BBR but due to lack of GPU pools and solid info ive quit

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September 27, 2014, 03:39:00 AM
 #50

i used to mine a bit of BBR but due to lack of GPU pools and solid info ive quit

If you need any information about pools or anything BBR related, PM me and I'll get you what you need. Cheers.
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September 27, 2014, 05:13:59 AM
 #51

OP, you forgot this comparison:

Mining fee for dev (aka, tax on the stupid  Tongue): 
  • BBR: 1% mandatory
  • XMR: 0%

Advantage: XMR

If you mine on a pool, you cannot turn off this fee. Cunning, this CZ dude, he realizes most will mine at pools and won't be able to turn off.
 
Now the fee itself is not bad, devs need to be compensated; but the fact it was enabled since the start of the coin is. It's more respectable to have this fee be decided by the community or from donation, which is what XMR is doing.  Admittedly volunteered donation is not too effective though.

Also, CZ being a single dev possesses a serious single point of failure for BBR. God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future, who will carry the torch? windjc? slapper?

Nice attempt at FUD. Actually, miners can vote to turn this off at any time. There are multiple developers in the BBR eco-system. Do some research. Smiley

You are right. However, a mandatory small fee in the early stage of the coin is very important.
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September 27, 2014, 06:37:38 AM
Last edit: September 27, 2014, 08:45:56 AM by Anotheranonlol
 #52

OP, you forgot this comparison:

Mining fee for dev (aka, tax on the stupid  Tongue):  
  • BBR: 1% mandatory
  • XMR: 0%

Advantage: XMR

If you mine on a pool, you cannot turn off this fee. Cunning, this CZ dude, he realizes most will mine at pools and won't be able to turn off.
 
Now the fee itself is not bad, devs need to be compensated; but the fact it was enabled since the start of the coin is. It's more respectable to have this fee be decided by the community or from donation, which is what XMR is doing.  Admittedly volunteered donation is not too effective though.


1% fee is optional, not mandatory. You're entirely free to gravitate to a pool with donation vote disabled. Most of the Monero pools forward at least a portion of their fees towards a development fund too. Same concept, just  tacked on at a higher level instead of baked in to the protocol. Not to mention some of the closed source XMR GPU miners tax users 5% or force them to forfeit hashpower- interesting example of game theory there as users would be out of pocket more by setting no donations and getting crippled slightly than they would lose by enabling donations.

 I'm totally supporting small percentage of donations to be enabled in these fledgling cryptonote projects,
Don't think the reason why needs too much elaboration-- unless you imagine development costs are coming out of the dev's own pocket and they are completely altruistic and self-sufficent. It's nice to assume community will always chip in but huge evidence in donation behavior economic models demonstrates opt in (set it and forget it) is many times more effective than opt out.

 I struggle to find a scenario in which users would object towards an ongoing 1% distribution being awarded to the developer and maintainer of the project (big difference between premine there where dev can do no work and cash out on day 1) - The size of the developers paycheck will directly correlate with the success of the project and how much they are willing to give.  I think the approach taken by BBR is an example of how do it right frankly- Besides With the current market cap of BBR, it amounts to what a competent coder could earn from a weekend project.

Also, CZ being a single dev possesses a serious single point of failure for BBR. God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future, who will carry the torch? windjc? slapper?

TFT was a single point of failure for Bitmonero, so the current monero core crew hijacked it and renamed it to monero, now the project is successful under their leadership. It was a community effort between a group of individuals who saw an opportunity to 'save' it, and part of the reason it flourished . No reason to assume the same could not happen for BBR. Besides, It's a common misconception CZ is working as a single dev, it's not true.

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September 27, 2014, 07:30:05 AM
 #53

OP, you forgot this comparison:

Mining fee for dev (aka, tax on the stupid  Tongue): 
  • BBR: 1% mandatory
  • XMR: 0%

Advantage: XMR

If you mine on a pool, you cannot turn off this fee. Cunning, this CZ dude, he realizes most will mine at pools and won't be able to turn off.
 
Now the fee itself is not bad, devs need to be compensated; but the fact it was enabled since the start of the coin is. It's more respectable to have this fee be decided by the community or from donation, which is what XMR is doing.  Admittedly volunteered donation is not too effective though.

Also, CZ being a single dev possesses a serious single point of failure for BBR. God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future, who will carry the torch? windjc? slapper?

Nice attempt at FUD. Actually, miners can vote to turn this off at any time. There are multiple developers in the BBR eco-system. Do some research. Smiley

Yes they can but its ON by default.

Is it hard to switch off?
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September 27, 2014, 07:59:53 AM
 #54

OP, you forgot this comparison:

Mining fee for dev (aka, tax on the stupid  Tongue): 
  • BBR: 1% mandatory
  • XMR: 0%

Advantage: XMR

If you mine on a pool, you cannot turn off this fee. Cunning, this CZ dude, he realizes most will mine at pools and won't be able to turn off.
 
Now the fee itself is not bad, devs need to be compensated; but the fact it was enabled since the start of the coin is. It's more respectable to have this fee be decided by the community or from donation, which is what XMR is doing.  Admittedly volunteered donation is not too effective though.

Also, CZ being a single dev possesses a serious single point of failure for BBR. God forbid should CZ have some health issue in the future, who will carry the torch? windjc? slapper?

Nice attempt at FUD. Actually, miners can vote to turn this off at any time. There are multiple developers in the BBR eco-system. Do some research. Smiley

Yes they can but its ON by default.

Is it hard to switch off?

No, but its the lesser of the problems, first one is it being a 1% dev tax, second is it being ON by default.
"Tax" and "default" are contradictory terms.  I wish my taxes were only ON by default.
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September 27, 2014, 09:44:40 AM
 #55

Nice attempt at FUD. Actually, miners can vote to turn this off at any time. There are multiple developers in the BBR eco-system. Do some research. Smiley

Its not FUD if they're facts. Smiley And I have no ill wishes for CZ as implied.
I mine both BBR and XMR and wanted to point out the obvious difference. As you've stated, we can elect to turn off the fee but it requires either finding a pool which has it turned off or choose to solo mine, which both are unlikely scenario for most miners. I dont necessarily oppose the fee but like others I'd like it to be better documented on the BBR thread. For example, is the dev fee part of the total supply of coins or is it in addition?

As the marketing head for BBR, you could take a lesson or two from smooth. You childist behavior such as your sig and forced rebranding turns off a lot of supporters.

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September 27, 2014, 12:16:22 PM
 #56

I think there needs to be an infographic about this 1% on/off , current miner status, miner fee and what not. Otherwise it is the same sockpuppets always saying how you are hurting the BBR community windjc. Yep, don't hurt the BBR community too much. I'm bleeding.


Regarding mining, BBR OP has clear info.


i used to mine a bit of BBR but due to lack of GPU pools and solid info ive quit

If you need any information about pools or anything BBR related, PM me and I'll get you what you need. Cheers.



HOWTO&FAQ thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781961

CPU Mining
The most efficient CPU mining is done with CPUminer-Multi. Complete instructions are on the Boolberry How-To page.

GPU Mining
GPU mining is dynamic and constantly improving. The first post of the GPU Mining thread has current info and the thread itself has lots of information.  


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September 27, 2014, 04:36:24 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2014, 05:08:36 PM by dvdrewritable
 #57

So I guess despite me never claiming that I am a developer, my openly visible commits are there to demonstrate that I am also not incapable of developing.

If you're not incapable of developing, why you are making random git pulls from BBR and inserting them into XMR without an idea of what the code actually does?  Semi-capable might of been a more appropriate word.

Actually, How did that gaffe slip past extensive peer-review by a team of no less than seventeen experienced XMR developers?
Unless it wasn't actually reviewed and you have unfettered access to the repo.

Why did it take a developer of a competing project to point out your mistake so you can revert it?
I'm being a little harsh there, you had a long day and you were probably burned out dealing with the drama surrounding the attack. Understandable.
However it's a point made by zoidberg that if the XMR developers don't fully understand the commits they are implementing and just add features willy nilly from other project some damage could of been done. Malicous backdoor could of been inserted into the XMR this way.

I see you making not so subtle insinuations that crypto_zoidberg is a glorified code monkey, If it wasn't for CZ there could potentially have a mtgox like situation on our hands with poloniex, you should be more respectful about background works. He has done some hand-holding on a number of occasions and you know it well. I actually checked out your git commits. Majority of them are version bumps, string replaces & single line additions. seems if zoidberg role is code monkey your role is  secretarial duties- you are assigned to brush up on the verbiage and misc typos, But I suppose you prefer the role 'architectural visionary' or 'creative director' and consider pushing out code something mostly below you, but something you do to keep you occupied whilst you are having a morning croissant or on the shitter maybe?

True innovation does not come from code churn. It also does not come from design alone. It comes from straddling the line between well thought through design and the actual implementation. That is predominantly where the core team is and should be focused

Someones been practicing their best Jony Ive impression Grin. I agree with what you said about code volume being a useless metric. Anyone can hire 10 freelancers from bangalore. The only reason it was added to infographic was I heard someone ask if the project was dead due to lack of activity?? So the clear numbers are shown to demonstrate neither projects are stagnating, clearly the fact BBR has less cooks in the kitchen doesn't mean the broth is being cooked slowly, nor is the quality suffering.

About true innovation:

  • True innovation starts with: Taking the time to develop an intimate understanding of the codebase you are working with, so you are unrestricted to expand freely without worry.
     Example: auditing the Proof-of-work so it's not blatantly crippled upon launch. A third party good samaritan had to step in to fix Monero's initial borked code, Hardly inspired confidence in the 'real' team.  He had this to say:

    I took a look at the code and changed some extremely easy to spot "errors"
    By the way, I'm not even a real coder, so whatever changes I made should be easy to spot; especially for experienced developers.


  • True innovation starts with : Choosing block emission parameters from scratch, instead of just leaving them default because Greed won over in an arguably rigged vote
    If there is anyone who considers the XMR emission schedule optimal and not just a necessary blemish that's good enough and will "have to do" (polar opposite of innovative) I would like to meet them.

  • True innovation starts with: Designing a novel memory-hard blockchain based Proof-of-work function from scratch that's many times faster than the vanilla cryptonight PoW adopted in XMR, yet provides the same level of ASIC resistance. Something which the Monero developers admittedly tried to deny due to lack of understanding until they were educated  by an authority on the subject BBR synchronized from scratch 20x faster than XMR. The difference will be smaller on usual day with same transaction flow but it's undeniably and provably faster

  • True innovation starts with: Designing your cryptographic constructs with the future in mind. In an eloquent and frugal way BBR allows the network particpants to not take onboard more than they need to. The blockchain can be easily pruned, drastically reducing bloat. BBR is already a leader in terms of disk footprint- (5x smaller) such feature only serves to increase the gap.

we could go on, BBR baked in alias support, XMR devs dismissed it as a gimmicky feature, now they are adding in Aliases themselves
XMR community balked at the '1% tax' only to find themselves brainstorming for fundraising ideas for development funds now
BBR was built on a concrete foundation. This was a project dreamed up from scratch. Every detail was carefully planned.

XMR was not designed from scratch, it was cloned from another questionably shady developer, warts 'n all.
Some of the flaws have been polished out.  It's completely fair to say there will be continued polishing but there are certain aspects such as the poor emission rate which will never be fixed. It has to be swept under the rug or twisted with careful marketing to appear as positive feature. Because it was not their creation they do not have the luxury of choosing ideal parameters. Therefore it's built on a sandy foundation which is being retroactively strengthened but it will always remain less than ideal.

Would you consider the eloquent design from a database architect somehow less worthy than the moron that spits out a few classes for the DAL?
...Would you argue that the hours of design effort a UI specialist puts into making a wizard intuitive and beautiful should not have his efforts held high against the junior developer who wired up the buttons?

Maybe part of this is referring to Monero's ongoing work on moving blockchain out of RAM, or the work on outsourcing wireframe mockups to your unreleased, groundbreaking, this-changes-everything GUI that will allow auntie mabel to easily manage her ring-signature based cryptocurrency portfolio

Meanwhile I have tested a fully functional, clean and intuitive GUI released long ago by BBR; introduced without a whole lot of prior fanfare
I have tested and confirmed blockchain.bin dataset has been reduced in real life. The update was just pushed out, not with a ton of hand waving in advance. None of these are 'innovations' which are being slated for future release or hypothesised about in missives. They just get added then moved onto the next.

Seems if we make an analogy Monero developers stole brought a phone and now just getting acquainted with learning how to use it as they go,while proclaiming they are masters leading the way whilst BBR developers already clearly familiar with the functions and keep mostly low-key just making updates- not so much talking but the work rate is high. . There is nothing wrong with this but you are liars to imagine you are the only ones innovating in this space.

With XMR all it ever is is 'ongoing work' more premature assured congratulatory self-pats on the back and more hubris eminating from core team. You can smell the superiority complex a mile off with you guys..the air is just thick with unwarranted supercilious smug You seem to believe you've achieved enough critical mass to have won the race before it's even really started.  The best part of avoiding the Monero circlejerk not having to deal with a community of insular elitists. You guys embarked on an orchestrated smear campaign to throw every other competing cryptonote coin under the bus and I have some pretty damming evidence including internal conversations  implicating some of the more senior XMR community members in what (even to a casual observer with no skin in the game) is undeniably dirty tactics. As someone else put it some of your PR schemes would make goebbels blush.  Rest assured I will elaborate on that when the dust starts to settle.

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September 27, 2014, 05:05:05 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2014, 05:32:45 PM by dvdrewritable
 #58

If you're not incapable of developing, why you are making random git pulls from BBR and inserting them into XMR without an idea of what the code actually does?  Semi-capable might of been a more appropriate word.

Can't you see, there is (or was) lots of mutual (not really) respect between the bbr/xmr teams, because now he made the mistake of instantly appreciate what Boolberry offers you try to say a dev is not a dev? lol, very low of you, don't worry I have no doubts this mistake won't be made again.

Bookmarked. Wink

Acknowledging a code monkey who churns out tons of raw code is not much of an accomplishment, it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the number of lines of code this project's sole contributor pushes out. I mean, if you want to go by that measure as indicative of anything, then I strongly suggest you look at the BitsharesX contributors, who make both crypto_zoidberg and us look like we're lazy: https://github.com/dacsunlimited/bitsharesx/graphs/contributors

PS: Storm is over, relax and have a some fun, eveyone do mistakes, don't take seriously my joke.

Openly insulting me and other Monero developers is not a joke. You can't add an emoticon to the end and expect that everything will be alright. The proof of your ability should come from what you do, not from throwing mud across the fence couched in a smiley face.

At least have the courage to stand by what you say instead of trying to excuse it.


No, I see (as someone else put it) sexual tension.

The pleasantries are not more than a public facing image. Only skin deep . In private words and actions are dripping with disdain

I am so bothered because I've seen some really low tactics emanating from those in a privileged position in the XMR community (let's not pretend all behavior from other project communities are angelic because that's certainly disingenuous) but that's the worst I've seen so far.  I will post what I have at a later date and perhaps there will be some re-evaluation.

Add some extra graphics, just for historical reference



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September 27, 2014, 05:35:51 PM
 #59

To spare us the next 30 pages of bullshit, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5yjrr7OzYk

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September 27, 2014, 05:36:51 PM
 #60

If you're not incapable of developing, why you are making random git pulls from BBR and inserting them into XMR without an idea of what the code actually does?  Semi-capable might of been a more appropriate word.

Can't you see, there is (or was) lots of mutual (not really) respect between the bbr/xmr teams, because now he made the mistake of instantly appreciate what Boolberry offers you try to say a dev is not a dev? lol, very low of you, don't worry I have no doubts this mistake won't be made again.

you can keep saying bbr is the best jesus coin in the world ppl will say to you its not and that monero current emission and lack of dev block is better, so deal with it.

Even rpietila has said the XMR emission is not optimal. I think it's pretty clear looking at the graph that the reason the XMR price struggles so much despite all the fanfare is the money supply is inflating incredibly fast and that drives away some people who would otherwise be interested.

I have nothing against XMR in general, but in anything other than a short trade during the run ups I personally find it quite hard to justify putting down money in it long term.

In three or four years if everything works out the way MEW et al are predicting I'll be there money in hand as supply dries up. If XMR really does become the leader of dark liquidity world wide I think being as close to it as I am I'll be able to see it happening and have time to buy some and still make money, even if that happens in 2015. But until then the sheer amount of money it takes per day even at this relatively low market cap to sustain the price is a bit of a deal killer.

I don't want this to come off as an anti-XMR post at all. But I'm just a little surprised at your defense of the emission since I thought the official line was something like 'what can you do? we didn't set it like that', which is fine considering it's the truth.
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