Circle Announces Global Launch of Bitcoin Banking Platform

[RustyNomad]

I don't see why they would charge anything else

There are platforms/wallets where an additional fee is being charged per tx so my question was more about 'additional' fees.

[BitChick]

I have posted this elsewhere. Please forgive the duplication. The topic seems important enough to justify it, imho.

As far as I can see, Circle will work out fine unless or until you want to spend your BTC. Do not let the boiler plate text make your eyes glaze over. Read the fine print!

From their service agreement - their INTERNATIONAL service agreement, of all things:

--  snip  --

17. Restricted Activities

Using the Services to make the following types of payments is prohibited, and Circle reserves the right to monitor for payments that relate to:

    any Restricted Persons or persons or entities located in Restricted Territories (as each term is defined in Section 29);
    weapons of any kind, including but not limited to firearms, ammunition, knives, or related accessories;
    controlled substances including but not limited to narcotics, prescription drugs, steroids, or related paraphernalia or accessories;
    gambling activities including but not limited to sports betting, casino games, horse racing, dog racing, lotteries, games of chance, sweepstakes, games of skill that may be classified as gambling (i.e. poker), or other activities that facilitate any of the foregoing;
    constitute money-laundering or terrorist financing;
    any sort of ponzi scheme, pyramid scheme, or multi-level marketing program;
    goods or services that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, or proprietary rights under the laws of any jurisdiction otherwise constitute counterfeit goods;
    debt settlement, refinance, or credit repair services;
    court ordered payments, structured settlements, tax payments, or tax settlements;
    the sale of money orders or cashier’s checks or any unlicensed money transmitter activity;
    lottery contracts, layaway systems, or annuities;
    counterfeit goods; or
    any other matters which we communicate to you that are unacceptable from time to time and which, for example, may be restricted by our and your payment partners.

In the event that Circle learns that you are making any such prohibited payments, Circle may suspend or terminate your Circle Account.


--  end snip --

Not that I am endorsing gambling, and perhaps it is an added benefit that Circle does not allow direct payments to some things (it might save a few people some heartache and lost coins) but couldn't someone just buy coins on Circle then transfer them to their own wallet and then send coins to any site they wish and gamble whatever amount they want?

[serenitys]

Wow...some of you guys are serious pessimists.


I bet if it was raining gold you'd just bitch about having to pick it up.

Circle is a good thing. Smile a little.

[RustyNomad]

Circle is a good thing. Smile a little.

Could not agree more. Circle is simple and straight forward. This is what's required if we want to see bitcoin adoption grow i.e. something that's easy to understand and or operate.

Even my mom will be able to work with Circle whereas she would most probably never get to grips with the likes of Armory and or Electrum etc...

[fryarminer]

True story: I was getting on bitcointalk to ask what is the easiest way for me to tell someone not familiar with bitcoin, how to purchase bitcoin easily.
And I found this post! This is awesome!


Aigeezer, I don't see anything negative about your post. They're covering their back, that's all.

[QuestionAuthority]

I have posted this elsewhere. Please forgive the duplication. The topic seems important enough to justify it, imho.

As far as I can see, Circle will work out fine unless or until you want to spend your BTC. Do not let the boiler plate text make your eyes glaze over. Read the fine print!

From their service agreement - their INTERNATIONAL service agreement, of all things:

--  snip  --

17. Restricted Activities

Using the Services to make the following types of payments is prohibited, and Circle reserves the right to monitor for payments that relate to:

    any Restricted Persons or persons or entities located in Restricted Territories (as each term is defined in Section 29);
    weapons of any kind, including but not limited to firearms, ammunition, knives, or related accessories;
    controlled substances including but not limited to narcotics, prescription drugs, steroids, or related paraphernalia or accessories;
    gambling activities including but not limited to sports betting, casino games, horse racing, dog racing, lotteries, games of chance, sweepstakes, games of skill that may be classified as gambling (i.e. poker), or other activities that facilitate any of the foregoing;
    constitute money-laundering or terrorist financing;
    any sort of ponzi scheme, pyramid scheme, or multi-level marketing program;
    goods or services that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, or proprietary rights under the laws of any jurisdiction otherwise constitute counterfeit goods;
    debt settlement, refinance, or credit repair services;
    court ordered payments, structured settlements, tax payments, or tax settlements;
    the sale of money orders or cashier’s checks or any unlicensed money transmitter activity;
    lottery contracts, layaway systems, or annuities;
    counterfeit goods; or
    any other matters which we communicate to you that are unacceptable from time to time and which, for example, may be restricted by our and your payment partners.

In the event that Circle learns that you are making any such prohibited payments, Circle may suspend or terminate your Circle Account.


--  end snip --

They are planning on weeding out the criminal scumbags that have littered Bitcoin from day one. It is their business you know. If they're not interested in dealing with Silk Road or breaking the law that might simply mean they don't want to share a cell with Charlie Shrem. Think about it a minute. They must comply with local laws to the best of their ability to remain in business. All of the items in that list look illegal to me, at least in the US.

[fryarminer]

I just signed up and purchased with my credit card.
I timed it with my stopwatch. 7min, 51sec.

IMPRESSIVE!!!! That is time from initial welcome page, through sign up, TO AVAILABLE FUNDS!!!!

For those who question the credit card fraud thing, it seems that they do the transaction as a "cash advance", so there should be no threat of charge back.

And there's a best part: it seems to me that you can pay your credit card from your Circle bitcoin balance! I didn't test it, but if so, this is SO HUGE!! I'd close my bank accounts!!

[fryarminer]

Yup, just paid my credit card with BTC using Circle!

This is amazing.

[instructor2121]

So, to be clear...I know i can purchase BTC with my debit card... if i need some fiat, Circle will send fiat(BTC sold for fiat in my circle account) to my debit card instantly?

Just want some clarity... I see Circle as being huge for our community!

[aigeezer]

All of the items in that list look illegal to me, at least in the US.

First, I cited the international rules. Circle makes you certify that you are NOT an American resident before these apply. (The American rules are even tighter). American rules and laws do not apply in other jurisdictions, yet this ToS attempts to impose them on what Circle has been calling forty percent of the global population.

In any case, I highlight some of the list items with my observations parenthesized:

lottery contracts, layaway systems, or annuities (not illegal anywhere, as far as I know - annuities, in particular, are a classic financial refuge for widows and orphans, and layaways were a staple of the pre-debt epoch);
controlled substances including but not limited to (blah blah. Controlled in what jurisdiction - rules vary all over the world, and this ToS is for international customers);
goods or services that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, or proprietary rights under the laws of any jurisdiction (blah blah. Think about it. It says ANY jurisdiction. That includes North Korea as well as Kansas);
weapons of any kind, including but not limited to (blah blah. Weapons in whose eyes - is a butter knife a weapon, is an idea a weapon - Circle has sole discretion in deciding);
any Restricted Persons or persons or entities located in Restricted Territories (blah blah - no donations to whistle-blowers if they are on some State hit list - Circle is international except for the parts of the world that are out of fashion, and such fashions change like hemlines);
court ordered payments, structured settlements, tax payments, or tax settlements; (there are news items most days that some jurisdiction or other is planning to accept tax payments in crypto, but you will not be able to pay with your Circle account)
blah blah, or multi-level marketing program (legal and widespread in the States, legal in most jurisdictions);

and finally - the one that will get anyone sooner or later says - any other matters which we communicate to you that are unacceptable.

Corny example of why this is a very alarming ToS document - a person living in, say, Germany, can not buy a deck of playing cards and pay with BTC from a Circle account without violating the ToS because that could be interpreted (at the sole discretion of Circle) as facilitating gambling activity. If you think I am exaggerating, reflect that Coinbase has allegedly been cancelling customer accounts recently because it believes some BTC in their accounts had passed through gambling sites.

This ToS tries to separate BTC into good and bad BTC, and attempts to destroy fungibility.

I do think this stuff matters a lot, if cryptocurrency matters in the first place. Statecoin is not the answer to the problems with fiat, imho.
 




 

[mgio]

I've signed up and I've already bought coins with Circle and I fail to see how it is any better than Coinbase.

It seems to be identical to Coinbase, in fact. I know they claim they aren't an exchange but that is marketing.

With Coinbase I can buy up to $1,000 in bitcoins a week. I never use it that way though. What is better is that I can buy up to $50,000 of Bitcoin a day! This is a rolling limit that begins replenish over 24 hours. Those bitcoins don't arrive for a few business days but that rarely matters. I can buy with linked bank accounts, but it will also use a backup credit card for the instant purchase. I can also sell up to $50,000 in bitcoins a day, although the money takes a couple of days to arrive. Transfers of bitcoins in to Coinbase take 6 confirmations. I pay 1% to buy and sell with Coinbase.


Now let's look at Circle. I can buy with a credit card but Circle (or, more fairly, my credit card) charges 3%. Ouch. Why would I ever want to do that? I can buy with a linked bank account but there is a WEEKLY limit of $2,500 for "deposits" (buys) and $5,000 weekly limit for "withdrawals" (sells). Coinbase has a limit 70 times higher for sells and 140 times higher for buys! Now, I expect if I use Circle a lot they will raise that limit, but they have an awfully long way to go till they reach Coinbase's limit. Since my bank accounts haven't been linked yet, I have yet to see how long a deposit (buy) and withdrawal (sell) takes. I'm guessing the withdrawal will take the same amount of time as Coinbase as an ACH transfer can only go so fast. They may credit the "deposit" sooner than the ACH transfer will take, but I seriously doubt it.

Finally, the biggest downside with Circle is that you can't ever withdraw bitcoins from it (although you can deposit bitcoins into it). This essentially means that Circle is always going to "hold" your bitcoins which means you will have to trust them. Yes, I know I've heard they are insured but I do not see the FDIC logo anywhere on their site, and that is the only insurance that means anything. Plenty of other fraudulent companies have said "trust us" and then they either they ran away with the money or the bitcoins were mysteriously "stolen". Why should I trust Circle, then? With Coinbase I can buy coins and then immediately send them to my wallet, only sending them back to Coinbase when I want to sell. I prefer that much more.

[teek]

Finally, the biggest downside with Circle is that you can't ever withdraw bitcoins from it (although you can deposit bitcoins into it). This essentially means that Circle is always going to "hold" your bitcoins which means you will have to trust them. Yes, I know I've heard they are insured but I do not see the FDIC logo anywhere on their site, and that is the only insurance that means anything. Plenty of other fraudulent companies have said "trust us" and then they either they ran away with the money or the bitcoins were mysteriously "stolen". Why should I trust Circle, then? With Coinbase I can buy coins and then immediately send them to my wallet, only sending them back to Coinbase when I want to sell. I prefer that much more.

?  You can send bitcoin to any bitcoin address..

[BitChick]

Finally, the biggest downside with Circle is that you can't ever withdraw bitcoins from it (although you can deposit bitcoins into it). This essentially means that Circle is always going to "hold" your bitcoins which means you will have to trust them. Yes, I know I've heard they are insured but I do not see the FDIC logo anywhere on their site, and that is the only insurance that means anything. Plenty of other fraudulent companies have said "trust us" and then they either they ran away with the money or the bitcoins were mysteriously "stolen". Why should I trust Circle, then? With Coinbase I can buy coins and then immediately send them to my wallet, only sending them back to Coinbase when I want to sell. I prefer that much more.

?  You can send bitcoin to any bitcoin address..

That would be the biggest problem with Circle by far if that is the case.  Does anyone know?

I know some people have mentioned them perhaps using fractional reserve banking strategies.  If they indeed to not allow for the withdrawal of coins then that is further proof that they are perhaps doing that.  I would stay away from them if that is the case.

[mgio]

Finally, the biggest downside with Circle is that you can't ever withdraw bitcoins from it (although you can deposit bitcoins into it). This essentially means that Circle is always going to "hold" your bitcoins which means you will have to trust them. Yes, I know I've heard they are insured but I do not see the FDIC logo anywhere on their site, and that is the only insurance that means anything. Plenty of other fraudulent companies have said "trust us" and then they either they ran away with the money or the bitcoins were mysteriously "stolen". Why should I trust Circle, then? With Coinbase I can buy coins and then immediately send them to my wallet, only sending them back to Coinbase when I want to sell. I prefer that much more.

?  You can send bitcoin to any bitcoin address..

That would be the biggest problem with Circle by far if that is the case.  Does anyone know?

I know some people have mentioned them perhaps using fractional reserve banking strategies.  If they indeed to not allow for the withdrawal of coins then that is further proof that they are perhaps doing that.  I would stay away from them if that is the case.

ok, I figured out how to withdraw. But it wasn't obvious. I'm not sure why the "withdraw" option doesn't let you do but you can send bitcoins to yourself. It is probably because Circle wants to be thought of as a bank account where your fiat is held as bitcoins, while Coinbase is an exchange that let's you have a bitcoin wallet.

Yes, it is exactly the same thing. It's just marketing.

Still, all the other problems with Circle still stand. Until they let you deal with reasonable amounts of money, I'll still prefer Coinbase.

[mgio]

Finally, the biggest downside with Circle is that you can't ever withdraw bitcoins from it (although you can deposit bitcoins into it). This essentially means that Circle is always going to "hold" your bitcoins which means you will have to trust them. Yes, I know I've heard they are insured but I do not see the FDIC logo anywhere on their site, and that is the only insurance that means anything. Plenty of other fraudulent companies have said "trust us" and then they either they ran away with the money or the bitcoins were mysteriously "stolen". Why should I trust Circle, then? With Coinbase I can buy coins and then immediately send them to my wallet, only sending them back to Coinbase when I want to sell. I prefer that much more.

?  You can send bitcoin to any bitcoin address..

That would be the biggest problem with Circle by far if that is the case.  Does anyone know?

Have some common sense. It would be pretty stupid if you could buy bitcoins but you couldn't use them.

It turns out you can do it. But Circle claims they are not an exchange! You don't "buy" coins on the site. You deposit either fiat or bitcoins and the money is held in your Circle account as bitcoins.

[Keyser Soze]

It seems to me the pricing (including fees) is a bit better compared to Coinbase, assuming you linked a bank account and not a credit card.

[QuestionAuthority]

All of the items in that list look illegal to me, at least in the US.

First, I cited the international rules. Circle makes you certify that you are NOT an American resident before these apply. (The American rules are even tighter). American rules and laws do not apply in other jurisdictions, yet this ToS attempts to impose them on what Circle has been calling forty percent of the global population.

In any case, I highlight some of the list items with my observations parenthesized:

lottery contracts, layaway systems, or annuities (not illegal anywhere, as far as I know - annuities, in particular, are a classic financial refuge for widows and orphans, and layaways were a staple of the pre-debt epoch);
controlled substances including but not limited to (blah blah. Controlled in what jurisdiction - rules vary all over the world, and this ToS is for international customers);
goods or services that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, or proprietary rights under the laws of any jurisdiction (blah blah. Think about it. It says ANY jurisdiction. That includes North Korea as well as Kansas);
weapons of any kind, including but not limited to (blah blah. Weapons in whose eyes - is a butter knife a weapon, is an idea a weapon - Circle has sole discretion in deciding);
any Restricted Persons or persons or entities located in Restricted Territories (blah blah - no donations to whistle-blowers if they are on some State hit list - Circle is international except for the parts of the world that are out of fashion, and such fashions change like hemlines);
court ordered payments, structured settlements, tax payments, or tax settlements; (there are news items most days that some jurisdiction or other is planning to accept tax payments in crypto, but you will not be able to pay with your Circle account)
blah blah, or multi-level marketing program (legal and widespread in the States, legal in most jurisdictions);

and finally - the one that will get anyone sooner or later says - any other matters which we communicate to you that are unacceptable.

Corny example of why this is a very alarming ToS document - a person living in, say, Germany, can not buy a deck of playing cards and pay with BTC from a Circle account without violating the ToS because that could be interpreted (at the sole discretion of Circle) as facilitating gambling activity. If you think I am exaggerating, reflect that Coinbase has allegedly been cancelling customer accounts recently because it believes some BTC in their accounts had passed through gambling sites.

This ToS tries to separate BTC into good and bad BTC, and attempts to destroy fungibility.

I do think this stuff matters a lot, if cryptocurrency matters in the first place. Statecoin is not the answer to the problems with fiat, imho.

I think they're based in the USA. A US company can't just go overseas and start trading in drugs that are illegal in the US. It's not ok for them to launder money in Somalia either. They need to comply with US law or prohibit US customers from using their service. Besides, it's a business. You can always refuse to do business with them and pick a company based in Somalia to do business with. LOL

[aigeezer]

I think they're based in the USA.

Indeed they are.

A US company can't just go overseas and start trading in drugs that are illegal in the US. It's not ok for them to launder money in Somalia either.

Those were never the issues under discussion.

They need to comply with US law or prohibit US customers from using their service.

That IS somewhat related to one of the issues under discussion - specifically, there is no reason for customers outside the US to be held to US law. I imagine if, say, a Chinese financial company insisted that its American customers comply with Chinese laws that there would be howls of outrage. Circle offers a separate ToS document for its international customers, but in it the requirements are to follow US law, plus several more arbitrary capricious restrictions that I cited. What they do to and with their US customers is not my area of concern - my issues are with their treatment of international customers. I am not American.

Besides, it's a business. You can always refuse to do business with them and pick a company based in Somalia to do business with. LOL

Of course I will not do business with them. No international person will unless they are willing to be bound by US law, plus the other onerous limitations I cited. Consider, for instance, the millions of people who live in jurisdictions where online gambling is legal. They cannot use Circle without acting as though they live in a jurisdiction where it is not legal. American companies will become international pariahs if they keep to this course. The world is much bigger than the US and Somalia.

Finally - I am astonished that nobody seems concerned that this company - the hot new place to buy BTC on credit - has calmly announced that it will, as they put it - Circle reserves the right to monitor for payments that relate to (long list plus)... any other matters which we communicate to you that are unacceptable from time to time.

They will watch how you spend your BTC and if they do not like it they will cut you off.

Nobody has even blinked at this - on an international BTC forum. Wowsers!


 

 

[bigdave]

I signed up today and linked my bank account and debit card. Moved some bitcoins over and made a withdraw to the debit card. If I can get next day or 2 day deposits I'm happy and that'll mean goodbye Coinbase except for extremely large (>$1000) transactions.

[QuestionAuthority]

I think they're based in the USA.

Indeed they are.

A US company can't just go overseas and start trading in drugs that are illegal in the US. It's not ok for them to launder money in Somalia either.

Those were never the issues under discussion.

They need to comply with US law or prohibit US customers from using their service.

That IS somewhat related to one of the issues under discussion - specifically, there is no reason for customers outside the US to be held to US law. I imagine if, say, a Chinese financial company insisted that its American customers comply with Chinese laws that there would be howls of outrage. Circle offers a separate ToS document for its international customers, but in it the requirements are to follow US law, plus several more arbitrary capricious restrictions that I cited. What they do to and with their US customers is not my area of concern - my issues are with their treatment of international customers. I am not American.

Besides, it's a business. You can always refuse to do business with them and pick a company based in Somalia to do business with. LOL

Of course I will not do business with them. No international person will unless they are willing to be bound by US law, plus the other onerous limitations I cited. Consider, for instance, the millions of people who live in jurisdictions where online gambling is legal. They cannot use Circle without acting as though they live in a jurisdiction where it is not legal. American companies will become international pariahs if they keep to this course. The world is much bigger than the US and Somalia.

Finally - I am astonished that nobody seems concerned that this company - the hot new place to buy BTC on credit - has calmly announced that it will, as they put it - Circle reserves the right to monitor for payments that relate to (long list plus)... any other matters which we communicate to you that are unacceptable from time to time.

They will watch how you spend your BTC and if they do not like it they will cut you off.

Nobody has even blinked at this - on an international BTC forum. Wowsers!
 

I hear you and agree that US businesses are screwed. Hell, I agree that the US legal system is screwed. I don't blame any non US citizen for avoiding our businesses. My country has been heaping laws for civil rights, animal rights, consumer protection rights, women's rights, children's rights, Native American rights, and plant life rights on top of our heads for so many years that now no one has any rights.

I think Circle will be a good thing for Bitcoin adoption in America. Finally pussy Americans will have a company they can go to that they aren't afraid will go out of business for lack of compliance. I'd be more concerned about their spying on transactions to comply with AML/KYC laws if they were the only game in town. I'm a proud American - I'm used to not having any freedom and being spied on all the time. I certainly don't fault you for not using them though.