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Author Topic: Micro transactions - confirmations?  (Read 1912 times)
Kakmakr
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October 01, 2014, 11:28:08 AM
 #1

I was wondering, what is the smallest fee, I can use, to still have my transaction confirmed?

I am currently on a site, where "things" can be bought, for a few satoshi's {less than 3000 satoshi} BUT the problem come in, that to get this transaction confirmed, you have to spend more Satoshi's than what the digital item was worth.  ^frown^

So this negate the statement, that bitcoin are best for micro transactions like this.

If you leave no fee, it will never be confirmed. Or there might be a possibility

So as a guideline, I need to know, what minimum fee, will guarantee a confirmation of the transaction?

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shorena
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October 01, 2014, 12:48:58 PM
 #2

I was wondering, what is the smallest fee, I can use, to still have my transaction confirmed?

0, it might just take a while (as in: up to a week) till a miner will include your TX in a block.

I am currently on a site, where "things" can be bought, for a few satoshi's {less than 3000 satoshi} BUT the problem come in, that to get this transaction confirmed, you have to spend more Satoshi's than what the digital item was worth.  ^frown^

So this negate the statement, that bitcoin are best for micro transactions like this.

With the way the standart fee currently works and the value of bitcoin, its indeed not good for microtransactions.

If you leave no fee, it will never be confirmed. Or there might be a possibility

So as a guideline, I need to know, what minimum fee, will guarantee a confirmation of the transaction?

No fee can guarantee a confirmation, but it would be very unlikely if a TX would not be included in the next block with standard fee (10k satoshi / kbyte). A lower fee (e.g. 1k satoshi / kbyte) will lead to less miners that will include your TX in a block, but if you have a little time any miner would do and there are still some out there with enough power to make a block that accept 0 fee TX.

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October 01, 2014, 02:02:54 PM
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if the transaction is more than 5500+ satoshi if you pay fee or not it must be confirmed. minimum fee is usually 10.000 satoshi.
Muhammed Zakir
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October 01, 2014, 02:14:17 PM
 #4

if the transaction is more than 5500+ satoshi if you pay fee or not it must be confirmed. minimum fee is usually 10.000 satoshi.

Wrong! I tried it by sending 0.05 BTC and it didn't work when not including a fee. There is no minimum fee, you can even send a 0 fee transaction but it will hardly get a transaction, sometimes it will be broadcasted from many days and just drop out. It is better to send a transaction with 0.001BTC and if you can't then, 0.000001BTC. Lower than that would make the transaction hard to get a confirmation. Roll Eyes

  ~~MZ~~

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October 02, 2014, 02:08:10 AM
 #5

I think the average miners set as the TX fee to include in blocks is 10,000 satoshi's and anything lower than that would take more time than the average 10 minutes for a block.

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October 02, 2014, 05:37:47 AM
 #6

The standard fee is 0.0001 btc per KB, but you can send transaction without fee as well. It will be confirmed if it has a high enough priority (please read https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees#Reference_Implementation).


For micro-transaction, it is better to do it offchain.

Kakmakr
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October 03, 2014, 05:37:47 AM
 #7

Well, next question then, based on the previous response.

What is offchain? I am using blockchain.info wallet, and I think it's online all the time. ^frown^

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October 03, 2014, 06:49:33 AM
 #8

Well, next question then, based on the previous response.

What is offchain? I am using blockchain.info wallet, and I think it's online all the time. ^frown^

Offchain transactions are transactions that are not processed and recorded in the bitcoin blocks.
For example, you can send bitcoin from your Coinbase account to my Coinbase account. There will be no public bitcoin transaction going through but just only a record on the Coinbase's internal database.

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October 04, 2014, 09:27:10 AM
 #9

I have sent micro-transactions for 0 fee on blockchain.info but you have to make sure your coins have been there for a few days already. If it does not work, as it happened to me a few times, you get it back but it can take a few days. BTC is not made for micro-transactions and the fees are a way to try not to have them otherwise the blockchain would be even bigger than what it is now.
Maybe suggest the website to accept litecoins or darkcoins, or others, as they are more suitable for those small transactions

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October 05, 2014, 06:55:49 AM
 #10

it can be zero fee, if you keep them long enough in the wallet.

I am not advertising anything Smiley
Buziss
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October 05, 2014, 11:30:08 AM
 #11

As others have already explained, free transactions do get confirmations as long as the coins are old enough. If you want to play safe and make sure the transaction will be confirmed within reasonable time, just don't change your default wallet fee setting and pay the fee your wallet client asks for.

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October 05, 2014, 11:38:05 AM
 #12

Standard fee for any transaction is 0.00010000 btc. As for the micro-transactions. its priority in the blockchain is very low to be confirmed as fast as other transactions on the blockchain. Micro-transactions usually take more time to confirm or not getting confirmed at all.

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October 05, 2014, 11:44:25 AM
 #13

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

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October 05, 2014, 11:59:46 AM
 #14

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#non-standard-transactions
If a transaction has an output smaller than 546 satoshi, it will be considered non-standard and will not be relayed by Bitcoin core 0.9.0+.

Muhammed Zakir
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October 05, 2014, 03:31:22 PM
 #15

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#non-standard-transactions
If a transaction has an output smaller than 546 satoshi, it will be considered non-standard and will not be relayed by Bitcoin core 0.9.0+.

But I think it can also be relayed if the miner disables default settings! Roll Eyes

Quote
If you create a redeem script, hash it, and use the hash in a P2SH output, the network sees only the hash, so it will accept the output as valid no matter what the redeem script says. This allows payment to non-standard pubkey script almost as easily as payment to standard pubkey scripts. However, when you go to spend that output, peers and miners using the default settings will check the redeem script to see whether or not it’s a standard pubkey script. If it isn’t, they won’t process it further—so it will be impossible to spend that output until you find a miner who disables the default settings.

  ~~MZ~~

Buziss
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October 05, 2014, 03:45:30 PM
 #16

What is minimal amount of coins in micro-transaction?

https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#non-standard-transactions
If a transaction has an output smaller than 546 satoshi, it will be considered non-standard and will not be relayed by Bitcoin core 0.9.0+.

But I think it can also be relayed if the miner disables default settings! Roll Eyes

Quote
If you create a redeem script, hash it, and use the hash in a P2SH output, the network sees only the hash, so it will accept the output as valid no matter what the redeem script says. This allows payment to non-standard pubkey script almost as easily as payment to standard pubkey scripts. However, when you go to spend that output, peers and miners using the default settings will check the redeem script to see whether or not it’s a standard pubkey script. If it isn’t, they won’t process it further—so it will be impossible to spend that output until you find a miner who disables the default settings.

  ~~MZ~~

True, and also not every nodes on the network run on the latest protocol version.
That's why some of those dust spamming transactions were able to be relayed across the network and were eventually confirmed.

Kakmakr
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October 08, 2014, 08:03:17 AM
 #17

So does the miners determine on their own, if they want to mine for blocks with transactions without fees? Or are these transactions bundled in with other transactions with fees?

Thanks for the answers so far, at least now I know, to put a minimum of 10k Satoshi's for small transactions.

shorena
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October 08, 2014, 08:24:32 AM
 #18

So does the miners determine on their own, if they want to mine for blocks with transactions without fees?

Yes, they can even decide to not include any TX at all.

Or are these transactions bundled in with other transactions with fees?

Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

Thanks for the answers so far, at least now I know, to put a minimum of 10k Satoshi's for small transactions.

Or you can wait and hope. I am currently waiting [1] for a feeless TX to go through. Its day 3 now and it might never confirm without further tricks. In general it is not wise to do this. Better pay your fees if you want your coins to move fast Wink


[1] https://www.blocktrail.com/tx/10fd41c4c86ae68c6382fd9ec0f92625b70a03d03d8ae1c4a564aa3ea03b570c

Peter882
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October 08, 2014, 12:04:20 PM
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Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

But has this way of "considering the total tx fee of a series of transactions" been implemented by the miners yet?
I have heard of this for a very long time, but I couldn't find if it is still a proposal or if it is already working.

shorena
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October 08, 2014, 07:26:22 PM
 #20

Usually not. Most transactions rely on other transactions that are allready confirmed, sometimes however it happens that TX A is not yet confirmed (e.g. because no fees) and TX B that spends the outputs from TX A pays a fee. In that case it makes sense for a miner to confirm A because only then B can be confirmed. Usually they would confirm both in the same block, to benefit from the fees of TX B.

But has this way of "considering the total tx fee of a series of transactions" been implemented by the miners yet?
I have heard of this for a very long time, but I couldn't find if it is still a proposal or if it is already working.

Not sure how the miners handle this internally, but usually when people spend unconfirmed change and pay a regular or normal fee both TX get confirmed within the next or very few blocks.

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