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Author Topic: Bitcoin made rich just a few but it ruined many  (Read 9320 times)
Robert Paulson
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October 02, 2014, 09:25:32 PM
 #81


i disagree, i think its important for people to understand the current fiat system in an unsustainable scam.
there is no viable monetary system possible besides bitcoin, which is why sooner or later bitcoin will enrich a whole bunch of people.

anyone who trades bitcoin for bank papers today will look like a greater fool than the guy who traded 10,000 bitcoin for a pizza only four years ago.

I'm not sure if a dollar collapse is good for bitcoin.
Maybe if it takes another 5 years but certainly not now.



Not in 5 yrs, not in 25. The idea that people are gonna flock to more ones and zeros on a screen in a mad max dollar collapses is quite absurd. That's a situation where tangible, hard assets will flourish.

this isn't the 19th century, trade is global.
its not practical shipping gold to pay for goods and services anymore, which is why tangible hard assets will not flourish.
bitcoin is the only system that allows paying for goods and services almost instantly anywhere in the world and without trusting a third party.

it really is perfect money, nothing old even comes close.

What you don't understand is, nobody wants a currency that isn't backed by a government or other type of major institution. They want guarantees... as it is, if they lose their bitcoin due to computer security failures or hardware problems, then they're fucked. That's why there is very little interest in it now, more than 5 years after conception, and there will always be low interest.  A worldwide economic collapse on the level that you dream of will not happen within our lifetimes, and even if it did, the idea that everyone will have a device capable of storing and transmitting bitcoin securely, over a global and well maintained computer network, is laughable.

you already trust computer security to secure all the nuclear missiles governments have, not to mention utilities like power and water.
its easy to store bitcoins so that you won't lose anything no matter what hardware fails - install electrum, remember the 12 word seed.
bitcoin gets huge interest from people, everyone is talking about it, its worth 370 times more than the USD, not bad for money nobody wants.

there won't be a global economic collapse, only America and part of Europe are going to collapse, there is no reason for the manufacturing countries to collapse.
and even then it doesn't mean there won't be internet or power in America, the companies that provide these services will still be there, everything will just be alot more expensive relative to income.
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Robert Paulson
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October 02, 2014, 09:33:47 PM
 #82

Besides the miners that HODL since the early CPU and GPU days, and a lucky few who bought and cashed out before the last bubbles had burst, the majority only lost money.
Of course. Bitcoin is a zero-sum game. Bitcoin doesn't generate any revenue or produce anything. For every win, someone else loses.

Exactly the same as gold.

The same as stocks, the same as futures, the same of the universe, the same of the atoms...

Welcome to the jungle baby, it's the survival of the fittest


you guys are wrong. bitcoin is not a zero sum game, as ultimately it's use is when its converted to fiat for purchases.

therefore if it gradually appreciates against fiat, the holders of bitcoin as a group would gain. The holders of the fiat would lose. But bitcoin would be a net winner.



Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.


bitcoin gains in purchasing power because more and more goods and services are being exchanged for it.
the bitcoin economy is growing rapidly while the bitcoin inflation rate is decreasing exponentially.
that is another reason why bitcoin's purchasing power is going to be alot higher in the future.
Robert Paulson
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October 02, 2014, 09:38:19 PM
 #83

Besides the miners that HODL since the early CPU and GPU days, and a lucky few who bought and cashed out before the last bubbles had burst, the majority only lost money.
Of course. Bitcoin is a zero-sum game. Bitcoin doesn't generate any revenue or produce anything. For every win, someone else loses.

Exactly the same as gold.

The same as stocks, the same as futures, the same of the universe, the same of the atoms...

Welcome to the jungle baby, it's the survival of the fittest


you guys are wrong. bitcoin is not a zero sum game, as ultimately it's use is when its converted to fiat for purchases.

therefore if it gradually appreciates against fiat, the holders of bitcoin as a group would gain. The holders of the fiat would lose. But bitcoin would be a net winner.



Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.


Yep that's because its inelastic.  Fiat money can expand and contract supply to address economic demand.  Basic monetary economics that bitcoiners dont seem to understand

"address economic demand" is just a nice way of saying that paper currency can be used to manipulate prices and distort the market, causing malinvestments and shifting production capacity into the wrong place.
indeed the current manipulation of interest rates by central banks around the world is the main reason for the malinvestments in world markets since the 1970's.
its also a tool for the government to rob its population without raising taxes outright.

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October 02, 2014, 09:48:00 PM
 #84

Besides the miners that HODL since the early CPU and GPU days, and a lucky few who bought and cashed out before the last bubbles had burst, the majority only lost money.
Of course. Bitcoin is a zero-sum game. Bitcoin doesn't generate any revenue or produce anything. For every win, someone else loses.

Exactly the same as gold.

The same as stocks, the same as futures, the same of the universe, the same of the atoms...

Welcome to the jungle baby, it's the survival of the fittest


you guys are wrong. bitcoin is not a zero sum game, as ultimately it's use is when its converted to fiat for purchases.

therefore if it gradually appreciates against fiat, the holders of bitcoin as a group would gain. The holders of the fiat would lose. But bitcoin would be a net winner.



Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.


bitcoin gains in purchasing power because more and more goods and services are being exchanged for it.
the bitcoin economy is growing rapidly while the bitcoin inflation rate is decreasing exponentially.
that is another reason why bitcoin's purchasing power is going to be alot higher in the future.


Wrong.  New goods and services require capital investment.  Monetary supply (credit money) expand to meet the demand for new captical.  Central bank control cost of credit using monetary policy.  These policies try to counteract extreme swings in business cycles.  Why do you think fiat is so stable?  Because its elastic

Your mistake is thinking goods are exchanged for bitcoin its not.  Its exchanged for fiat.  Bitcoin price is purely speculative

Its because you don't understand monetary economics




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October 02, 2014, 09:51:07 PM
 #85

Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.
Of course. If you don't get this, you're one of the suckers.
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October 02, 2014, 09:55:57 PM
 #86

the majority only lost money.

let talk about this in 5 years ...
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October 02, 2014, 09:59:20 PM
 #87

Yup, lots of people bought at the god damn 1k peak hyped about the whole thing "woww, its still so cheap, we can still be like them". I feel sorry for these that got into loans and shit and had the missfortune to buy at the ATH. Maybe if you hold until you are a grandpa, you recover the gains.
Robert Paulson
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October 02, 2014, 10:06:00 PM
 #88

Besides the miners that HODL since the early CPU and GPU days, and a lucky few who bought and cashed out before the last bubbles had burst, the majority only lost money.
Of course. Bitcoin is a zero-sum game. Bitcoin doesn't generate any revenue or produce anything. For every win, someone else loses.

Exactly the same as gold.

The same as stocks, the same as futures, the same of the universe, the same of the atoms...

Welcome to the jungle baby, it's the survival of the fittest


you guys are wrong. bitcoin is not a zero sum game, as ultimately it's use is when its converted to fiat for purchases.

therefore if it gradually appreciates against fiat, the holders of bitcoin as a group would gain. The holders of the fiat would lose. But bitcoin would be a net winner.



Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.


bitcoin gains in purchasing power because more and more goods and services are being exchanged for it.
the bitcoin economy is growing rapidly while the bitcoin inflation rate is decreasing exponentially.
that is another reason why bitcoin's purchasing power is going to be alot higher in the future.


Wrong.  New goods and services require capital investment.  Monetary supply (credit money) expand to meet the demand for new captical.  Central bank control cost of credit using monetary policy.  These policies try to counteract extreme swings in business cycles.  Why do you think fiat is so stable?  Because its elastic

Your mistake is thinking goods are exchanged for bitcoin its not.  Its exchanged for fiat.  Bitcoin price is purely speculative

Its because you don't understand monetary economics


when central banks manipulate the cost of credit they don't only increase capital investment, consumption is equally increased, the net result is zero increase in resource allocation for capital investment.
even if the central bankers could only increase capital investment they have no way of knowing what millions of people actually want to consume, any allocation of capital they will make will be wrong.

these interest rate manipulation policies are exactly what causes the extreme swings in business cycles, fiat is stable? compared to what? this doesn't look stable to me:


goods are exchanged for bitcoin, the fact that people choose to foolishly convert their bitcoin to fiat afterwards doesn't change that.
i understand monetary economics perfectly fine.
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October 02, 2014, 10:13:44 PM
 #89

Besides the miners that HODL since the early CPU and GPU days, and a lucky few who bought and cashed out before the last bubbles had burst, the majority only lost money.
Of course. Bitcoin is a zero-sum game. Bitcoin doesn't generate any revenue or produce anything. For every win, someone else loses.

Exactly the same as gold.

The same as stocks, the same as futures, the same of the universe, the same of the atoms...

Welcome to the jungle baby, it's the survival of the fittest


you guys are wrong. bitcoin is not a zero sum game, as ultimately it's use is when its converted to fiat for purchases.

therefore if it gradually appreciates against fiat, the holders of bitcoin as a group would gain. The holders of the fiat would lose. But bitcoin would be a net winner.



Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.


bitcoin gains in purchasing power because more and more goods and services are being exchanged for it.
the bitcoin economy is growing rapidly while the bitcoin inflation rate is decreasing exponentially.
that is another reason why bitcoin's purchasing power is going to be alot higher in the future.


Wrong.  New goods and services require capital investment.  Monetary supply (credit money) expand to meet the demand for new captical.  Central bank control cost of credit using monetary policy.  These policies try to counteract extreme swings in business cycles.  Why do you think fiat is so stable?  Because its elastic

Your mistake is thinking goods are exchanged for bitcoin its not.  Its exchanged for fiat.  Bitcoin price is purely speculative

Its because you don't understand monetary economics


when central banks manipulate the cost of credit they don't only increase capital investment, consumption is equally increased, the net result is zero increase in resource allocation for capital investment.
even if the central bankers could only increase capital investment they have no way of knowing what millions of people actually want to consume, any allocation of capital they will make will be wrong.

these interest rate manipulation policies are exactly what causes the extreme swings in business cycles, fiat is stable? compared to what? this doesn't look stable to me:


goods are exchanged for bitcoin, the fact that people choose to foolishly convert their bitcoin to fiat afterwards doesn't change that.
i understand monetary economics perfectly fine.

Why you post a chart of SP500?  How much has euro fluctuated against usd this year compared to bitcoin?

Watching ancap videos off youtube doesn't mean you understand economics

Robert Paulson
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October 02, 2014, 10:18:42 PM
 #90


Why you post a chart of SP500?  How much has euro fluctuated against usd this year compared to bitcoin?

Watching ancap videos off youtube doesn't mean you understand economics


i post a chart of the S&P 500 because paper fiat needs to be compared to something real, either companies or commodities, its not stable relative to neither.
the chart of the S&P 500 also clearly shows how the interest rate manipulation causes resources to be misallocated causing an unsustainable boom that is followed by a bust.

the USD is not stable even compared to other paper fiat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Dollar_Index#mediaviewer/File:U.S._Dollar_Index.png
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October 02, 2014, 10:25:32 PM
 #91

the majority only lost money.

let talk about this in 5 years ...

And what exactly do you expect to happen in the next 5 years?

Oh yeah, you hope new suckers will join the party and bail out the current losers?

But then again, if bitcoin is $5000 in 5 years you will still have losers, just not the current ones, but the future ones who have yet to join. The point is there is always someone who loses.

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Robert Paulson
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October 02, 2014, 10:26:22 PM
 #92


And what exactly do you expect to happen in the next 5 years?

Oh yeah, you hope new suckers will join the party and bail out the current losers?

But then again, if bitcoin is $5000 in 5 years you will still have losers, just not the current ones, but the future ones who have yet to join. The point is there is always someone who loses.

you are wrong, as the bitcoin economy grows everyone's purchasing power is increasing without anyone losing.
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October 02, 2014, 10:38:05 PM
 #93

the majority only lost money.

let talk about this in 5 years ...

And what exactly do you expect to happen in the next 5 years?

Oh yeah, you hope new suckers will join the party and bail out the current losers?

But then again, if bitcoin is $5000 in 5 years you will still have losers, just not the current ones, but the future ones who have yet to join. The point is there is always someone who loses.


No one here gives a shit that there a few lightweights, making 99% of the noise here, that "invested" in bitcoin by buying 0.1 btc with the money their grandma gave them for their birthday...are now "ruined"....stfu, sit tight and listen more than you talk and you might learn something. If you can't do that, sell your pittance and never come back...at least we won't have to listen to your whining.

TL;DR Man-the-fuck-up you so called "investors".


 



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October 02, 2014, 11:09:43 PM
 #94


Why you post a chart of SP500?  How much has euro fluctuated against usd this year compared to bitcoin?

Watching ancap videos off youtube doesn't mean you understand economics


i post a chart of the S&P 500 because paper fiat needs to be compared to something real, either companies or commodities, its not stable relative to neither.
the chart of the S&P 500 also clearly shows how the interest rate manipulation causes resources to be misallocated causing an unsustainable boom that is followed by a bust.

the USD is not stable even compared to other paper fiat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Dollar_Index#mediaviewer/File:U.S._Dollar_Index.png

What are you yammering on about? SP500 just index of 500 stocks.  What does it have to do w your argument about bitcoin and purchasing power?  I dont understand what point you are trying to make.  That stock prices go up and down?  Whats the link to M1 or M2?

Dollar is not stable??? Hahaha good one.  What do you call bitcoin volatility then?  

In past 10 years USD only variance of 12pts.  In past 4 years only 2pts variance.  There might be a more stable currency but USD is pretty stable

Im anycase I was talking about all fiats not any particular fiat

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October 02, 2014, 11:47:14 PM
 #95


Why you post a chart of SP500?  How much has euro fluctuated against usd this year compared to bitcoin?

Watching ancap videos off youtube doesn't mean you understand economics


i post a chart of the S&P 500 because paper fiat needs to be compared to something real, either companies or commodities, its not stable relative to neither.
the chart of the S&P 500 also clearly shows how the interest rate manipulation causes resources to be misallocated causing an unsustainable boom that is followed by a bust.

the USD is not stable even compared to other paper fiat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Dollar_Index#mediaviewer/File:U.S._Dollar_Index.png

What are you yammering on about? SP500 just index of 500 stocks.  What does it have to do w your argument about bitcoin and purchasing power?  I dont understand what point you are trying to make.  That stock prices go up and down?  Whats the link to M1 or M2?

Dollar is not stable??? Hahaha good one.  What do you call bitcoin volatility then?  

In past 10 years USD only variance of 12pts.  In past 4 years only 2pts variance.  There might be a more stable currency but USD is pretty stable

Im anycase I was talking about all fiats not any particular fiat

the S&P500 has nothing to do with my argument about bitcoin and purchasing power (not directly at least), you claimed fiat money was stable and yet it fluctuates wildly against both stocks and commodities.
if the only stability fiat paper has is against other fiat paper then that's no stability at all, not until the day you can eat paper money.


despite the central bank's inflation of the money supply the stock market keeps crashing down.
my argument is that the malinvestments the banks make (with purchasing power stolen from the population by the way) keeps inflating unsustainable bubbles instead of real economic growth.
real economic growth is the production of goods and services that people demand.



bitcoin is only 5 years old, its volatility will decrease once the volume of its markets will increase.
 
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October 03, 2014, 01:35:22 AM
 #96


And what exactly do you expect to happen in the next 5 years?

Oh yeah, you hope new suckers will join the party and bail out the current losers?

But then again, if bitcoin is $5000 in 5 years you will still have losers, just not the current ones, but the future ones who have yet to join. The point is there is always someone who loses.


No one here gives a shit that there a few lightweights, making 99% of the noise here, that "invested" in bitcoin by buying 0.1 btc with the money their grandma gave them for their birthday...are now "ruined"....stfu, sit tight and listen more than you talk and you might learn something. If you can't do that, sell your pittance and never come back...at least we won't have to listen to your whining.

TL;DR Man-the-fuck-up you so called "investors".


 




^this^
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October 03, 2014, 11:38:56 AM
 #97

Wrong. Bitcoin is a vastly more efficient value information technology than any of the current monetary technologies.

The cost benefits to global commerce from increased efficiencies in value transfer and storage will be reflected equally in the final long run valuation of bitcoins. It is patently obvious to any impartial, rational, intelligent  observer that it is far from a zerosum game.

It is analogous to pointing at a backhoe digging ditches 100's of times faster than a team of guys working with shovels and claiming "back hoes are a zero-sum game, who can win if we all use backhoes instead of shovels?".

Hey, go and buy up all those shovels before they go obsolete, they might have some numismatic value one day Wink

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October 03, 2014, 01:25:37 PM
 #98

The point is there is always someone who loses.

yes, the people that want that bitcoin get him rich.
not me.
i want a "protection" against bankster job ... lobbying law to freeze my life economies.

i want, too, a protection again inflation.
bitcoin do this greatly.
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October 03, 2014, 01:29:46 PM
 #99

The point is there is always someone who loses.

yes, the people that want that bitcoin get him rich.
not me.
i want a "protection" against bankster job ... lobbying law to freeze my life economies.

i want, too, a protection again inflation.
bitcoin do this greatly.

You've lost 2/3rds of your money since the beginning of the year.
Your bitcoin BUYS 2/3rds less than it did at the end of 2013.
If you kept your money in $$$, you would be able to buy 3x more BTC now.

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October 03, 2014, 02:20:13 PM
 #100

These are just fools that don't listen when logical, knowledgeable people tell them to sell.

They deserve to lose their money.
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