How can the consumer save money?

[cafucafucafu]

To buy btc on circle.com you need to pay the bank fees. You can then use that btc to buy goods. The merchant wont pay fees but the consumer will. In a way, it's a longer route to the same price. So how can such systems make things cheaper for consumers?

I know that we are hoping for a time when btc will replace fiat, but for now that isn't happening. Customers need incentives and that incentive would be lower prices.

[odolvlobo]

Merchants can lower prices since they don't have to pay credit card fees and are not exposed to chargeback fraud.

[cafucafucafu]

Merchants can lower prices since they don't have to pay credit card fees and are not exposed to chargeback fraud.

But those fees will be paid by customers when buying the btc with their cards. Same result - more effort.

Oh and the btc providers (e.g. circle) will have to deal with card fraud.

[inBitweTrust]

But those fees will be paid by customers when buying the btc with their cards. Same result - more effort.

Oh and the btc providers (e.g. circle) will have to deal with card fraud.

1) You are talking about the initial onramp fee of 1%. Once you have BTC you don't have this.

2) You can accept Bitcoin directly for goods and services and never need to go from Fiat to BTC as well.

3) It isn't an either, or decision as well. If you are a smart consumer you can use BTC's volatility to work for you:

       1) Buy BTC at 400 USD = 1% onramp fee = 404usd

        2) Later, If Price of BTC is more that 404 use BTC to purchase product, otherwise go to 3

         3) Later, If price of BTC is less than 404 use debit card, otherwise go to 2

          4) Using this method all products will be cheaper for consumers.

4) Merchants sometimes give discounts to consumers who pay in BTC because they don't pay merchant processing fees and can get BTC without paying the on ramp fee with bitpay.

[odolvlobo]

Merchants can lower prices since they don't have to pay credit card fees and are not exposed to chargeback fraud.

But those fees will be paid by customers when buying the btc with their cards. Same result - more effort.

Oh and the btc providers (e.g. circle) will have to deal with card fraud.

Well, eventually it will be silly to buy BTC with a credit card.

Also, don't forget the cost of fraud and security. Home Depot and Target will suffer from the cost of their security lapses.

[cafucafucafu]

But those fees will be paid by customers when buying the btc with their cards. Same result - more effort.

Oh and the btc providers (e.g. circle) will have to deal with card fraud.

2) You can accept Bitcoin directly for goods and services and never need to go from Fiat to BTC as well.

Well, eventually it will be silly to buy BTC with a credit card.

You are both missing the point. Before we get to that stage people need an incentive to obtain BTC.

3) It isn't an either, or decision as well. If you are a smart consumer you can use BTC's volatility to work for you:

       1) Buy BTC at 400 USD = 1% onramp fee = 404usd

        2) Later, If Price of BTC is more that 404 use BTC to purchase product, otherwise go to 3

         3) Later, If price of BTC is less than 404 use debit card, otherwise go to 2

          4) Using this method all products will be cheaper for consumers.

Do you think the average joe will even do this?!!!

4) Merchants sometimes give discounts to consumers who pay in BTC because they don't pay merchant processing fees and can get BTC without paying the on ramp fee with bitpay.

Again you missed the point!! This is about circle.com. Yes with bank transfers and exchanges its all cool but people don't want to do that. They would however use cards to pay for the coins. Bitpay doesn't given you that.

1) You are talking about the initial onramp fee of 1%. Once you have BTC you don't have this.

YES that fee isn't meaningless. It is still money that you pay.

[inBitweTrust]

You are both missing the point. Before we get to that stage people need an incentive to obtain BTC.

We are just answering your question which which is one incentive amongst many.

Do you think the average joe will even do this?!!!

I am an average joe and do it all the time... it comes second nature to us Bitcoin people, when the price is up spend BTC , when its down spend with fiat and buy BTC, it isn't complicated.

Were you disingenuous with your question and not want an answer?

Here is another way to instantly save money. Buy Giftcards (including amazon) with BTC and instantly save 3%
http://www.gyft.com/bitcoin/

This means that you can save 3% on basically every product available with Bitcoin.

Is that a good thing?

[franky1]

To buy btc on circle.com you need to pay the bank fees. You can then use that btc to buy goods. The merchant wont pay fees but the consumer will. In a way, it's a longer route to the same price. So how can such systems make things cheaper for consumers?

I know that we are hoping for a time when btc will replace fiat, but for now that isn't happening. Customers need incentives and that incentive would be lower prices.

if your american no one on earth will tell you to go buy some euro's simply because your local store as started accepting euro's along side dollar.. and then to go spend your euro's.

no one on earth will demand the retailer to give discounts to try and tempt people to buy euros either!!

YOUR MISSING THE POINT OF BITCOIN

its not about going from fiat to bitcoin to then instantly spend.

please go research what bitcoins benefits really are

[cafucafucafu]

To buy btc on circle.com you need to pay the bank fees. You can then use that btc to buy goods. The merchant wont pay fees but the consumer will. In a way, it's a longer route to the same price. So how can such systems make things cheaper for consumers?

I know that we are hoping for a time when btc will replace fiat, but for now that isn't happening. Customers need incentives and that incentive would be lower prices.

if your american no one on earth will tell you to go buy some euro's simply because your local store as started accepting euro's along side dollar.. and then to go spend your euro's.

no one on earth will demand the retailer to give discounts to try and tempt people to buy euros either!!

YOUR MISSING THE POINT OF BITCOIN

its not about going from fiat to bitcoin to then instantly spend.

please go research what bitcoins benefits really are

I know what you are referring to but I am not the average dude in the street who we are trying to get into bitcoin. They NEED INCENTIVES. No ideology is going to make them want to get into BTC. No scaremongering about inflation and debt will convince them. I think bitcoin is a great idea as a world currency but the average broke guy wants incentives. He wants discounts. Right now the ONLY incentive is international money transfer. That is all we have and that is for very few people.

[inBitweTrust]

Bottom line ----

Their are many reasons to invest and use Bitcoin. You asked a question about consumers saving money which is only one reason amongst many to use Bitcoin. Will most people start using bitcoin to save 3% or more on everything? Some thrifty people may, but most will not. Most people start using bitcoin for a combination of reasons.

What is also great about bitcoin is there are some things you can only buy Bitcoin with and here is one of them -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRtll3jjU4

https://ghostgunner.net/

Selling like hotcakes and only BTC accepted. Another reason why people will buy and use Bitcoin: Porn, drugs, guns, gambling, money laundering, prostitutes.... you know the backbone of society just like how USD cash is great at as well, but now you can get those things from the safety of your home and with greater competition brings in better quality due to reputation being more important.

[inBitweTrust]

I know what you are referring to but I am not the average dude in the street who we are trying to get into bitcoin. They NEED INCENTIVES. No ideology is going to make them want to get into BTC. No scaremongering about inflation and debt will convince them. I think bitcoin is a great idea as a world currency but the average broke guy wants incentives. He wants discounts. Right now the ONLY incentive is international money transfer. That is all we have and that is for very few people.

There is a very long list of incentives. What were you expecting us to say? Bitcoin will magically make everything 30% cheaper? Come on....

Perhaps, Bitcoin isn't intended for the rich white kid who could care less about saving 3%. Perhaps, it is a tool for other people to keep their savings. I just met a cattle farmer who owns a large ranch in Argentina. Guess how he is going to keep his profits from losing 30-50% in value this year due to inflation?

Bitcoin is still around 4 times higher than last years average. It has grown in value every year. The USD/Euro has lost 99.998% in value against Bitcoin.

[cafucafucafu]

There is a very long list of incentives. What were you expecting us to say? Bitcoin will magically make everything 30% cheaper? Come on....

If people saved even 1% of every bitcoin purchase then that is good enough incentive. But right now you lose money buying the btc with your card.

Another reason why people will buy and use Bitcoin: Porn, drugs, guns, gambling, money laundering, prostitutes....

If it is legal then most people don't care if they use cards. You reckon the illegal stuff will be enough for btc??

I am an average joe

No you are not. You are overestimating the average person.

[inBitweTrust]

If it is legal then most people don't care if they use cards. You reckon the illegal stuff will be enough for btc??

Of course, lets discuss a worst case scenario. If no one used BTC for the white market, and every country made it illegal worldwide, and many competing cryptocurrencies caught up to BTC where BTC only had a fraction of the black market share , than BTC would still grow to being worth over 10k per coin because of the limited supply and the size of the blackmarket.

If people saved even 1% of every bitcoin purchase then that is good enough incentive. But right now you lose money buying the btc with your card.

I just showed you how you can save 3% on every product imaginable with BTC so this means that 3 % savings - 1% fee for coinbase or circle = 2% savings on everything amazon sells or almost any gift card imaginable.

[cafucafucafu]

I just showed you how you can save 3% on every product imaginable with BTC so this means that 3 % savings - 1% fee for coinbase or circle = 2% savings on everything amazon sells or almost any gift card imaginable.

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

[franky1]

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

again you are thinking of people buying bitcoin to instantly spend

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!!!

please go have a cup of coffee, sit back relax, watch some TV and open your mind to what bitcoin is truly about. stop thinking we need to advertise to average joe who wants instant spend.. that is like phase 3 mindset, we are still at phase 1

phase one: innovators (coders & investment & merchants)
phase two: early adopters (investment & merchants)
phase three: main adopters (average joe just wanting to turn their wages into food, clothing and toilet paper)
phase four: late adopters

we are still in phase 1, stop skipping to phase 3 simply because you want your friend down the road to buy in so that you can sell out at profit

[cafucafucafu]

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

again you are thinking of people buying bitcoin to instantly spend

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!!!

please go have a cup of coffee, sit back relax, watch some TV and open your mind to what bitcoin is truly about. stop thinking we need to advertise to average joe who wants instant spend.. that is like phase 3 mindset, we are still at phase 1

phase one: innovators (coders & investment)
phase two: early adopters (investment)
phase three: main adopters (average joe just wanting to turn their wages into food, clothing and toilet paper)
phase four: late adopters

we are still in phase 1, stop skipping to phase 3 simply because you want your friend down the road to buy in so that you can sell out at profit

My friend, I do know the fundamentals. All I see from you guys is rhetoric and no good answers. The fundamentals are good but we wont get there until there is greater adoption. We wont get that adoption until the average dude has incentives.

You got it backwards! What you describe as phases wont come. First we need the adoption then comes the lower volatility, reduction of fiat conversion etc ...

Without greater adoption we will never get the other benefits. All I see from you guys is defensiveness and fanboyism. You can't face the criticism because you hold too much BTC.

[inBitweTrust]

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

FREE

You shouldn't have to pay fees to use your own money. We don't charge fees when you convert funds to or from bitcoin with a linked bank account, when you store your bitcoin, or for bitcoin transactions.

Circle doesn't charge fees to go from Fiat to BTC(yes, all exchanges have a spread just like all banks). Coinbase is 1%. Coinbase was easier to setup than paypal. I have setup over 10 coinbase accounts.

You are just being dishonest.

[cafucafucafu]

Actually circle charges a 3% fee! So by that account the consumer needs to save 4% at the merchants.

Bitpay and coinbase are not so easy to do.

FREE

You shouldn't have to pay fees to use your own money. We don't charge fees when you convert funds to or from bitcoin with a linked bank account, when you store your bitcoin, or for bitcoin transactions.

Circle doesn't charge fees to go from Fiat to BTC. Coinbase is 1%. Coinbase was easier to setup than paypal. I have setup over 10 coinbase accounts.

You are just being dishonest.

I just went to circle.com and tried it myself. They charge 3% fees. Go try it yourself. What they mean is that they dont add additional fees to what the card company does. TRY IT!

I am not from the USA so I cant comment on coinbase.

[franky1]

My friend, I do know the fundamentals. All I see from you guys is rhetoric and good answers. The fundamentals are good but we wont get there until there is greater adoption. We wont get that adoption until the average dude has incentives.

You got it backwards! What you describe as phases wont come. First we need the adoption then comes the lower volatility, reduction of fiat conversion etc ...

Without greater adoption we will never get the other benefits. All I see from you guys is defensiveness and fanboyism. You can't face the criticism because you hold too much BTC.

again your thinking of the bitcoin price by even mentioning volatility..

please clear your mind of the price completely. do not worry about the price tomorrow. the price next week or next month.. completely clear your mind of all that worry.

merchants do not actually care one bit about volatility.. as merchants if you did not realise when they type in $10 into a coinbase/bitpay API. are given a QR code, customers pay it and the merchant gets $10 in their bank account. to a merchant it does not matter if bitcoin is $1000 each or $300 each..
that is the mindset of phases 1-2.

the price my friend, is going to continue to rise and fall many times. so dont worry about volatility..

i professionally dont even look at the price. its meaningless, not due to the amount of coins i have still netting me a nice income at whatever price. but because the point of bitcoin is not about measuring bitcoin against FIAT. i personally measure bitcoin against how many loavesof bread i can buy without fiat converting.. last year 1btc got me roughly 50 loaves, now i can get atleast 200 loaves of bread.

but at this point in time we should be pushing for investment, and merchant adoption. basically increase the usability of it.

as you also keep harping on about discounts.. why mention discounts if customer cant even use bitcoin in the 7-11 in the first place.. we need to get places like walmart and 7-11 onboard first. (phase 2) before walmart/7-11 decides to offer discounts because payment processing is cheaper and they are getting free publicity from bitcoin.

the whole "user adoption" for everyday joe bloggs is not the point we are at. so be patient. have a cup of coffee and realise that bitcoin is not a fully grown up currency it is still a toddler, yes its volatile, having temper tantrums as toddlers do but its still crawling around and learning to walk. not yet ready to run.

your mindset is stuck on a very narrow vein of what bitcoins potential is, a vein pumping money around. bitcoin is far bigger, it has muscles it needs to flex and needs to show more movements of these muscles and not only the movements of money through its veins.

im not sure i can make it any clearer. but you seem to think that bitcoin is a 100metre sprint and you want to be the one running home back to your comfort zone.

bitcoin my friend is a triathlon.

[inBitweTrust]

I am not from the USA so I cant comment on coinbase.

Well you certainly did make a comment about coinbase before.... now you are admitting to making up facts?

I just went to circle.com and tried it myself. They charge 3% fees. Go try it yourself. What they mean is that they dont add additional fees to what the card company does. TRY IT!

WTF do your bank fees have to do with circle! You said that circle charges 3% , now are claiming that your bank is charging it. Newsflash.... there are many different banks with different fee structures!

Perhaps you are referring about the Interchange fee that is a minimum of 2% with Visa /Mastercard?

What does that have to do with circle? This is the reason why people want to use Bitcoin and stop using credit cards. Just because you don't always see the merchant processing fees they do effect you with at minimum raising prices on goods and services you buy.

If you ACH'd the payment that would probably eliminate the fee charged by a cc.... that is what people do with coinbase and yes, if you are in the US you can ACH to circle and the banks don't charge fees.

So perhaps you should say " Damn, I hate my bank, they are charging me fees for every fucking transaction, or they hide the fees they charge me by charging the business I deal with 3-5% which makes everything I buy more expensive."

Why are you fretting about 3% anyways? Bitcoin has grown in value far more than that over the years regardless. You are missing the point if you need to constantly jump in and out of Fiat.