Ive Never Met a Poor or Non-White Libertarian

[cdog]

And this has caused me to rethink my views. Im such a believer in personal freedom, but I dont really see how the endgame for freetrade can be anything other than disaster.

There is a selfishness to Libertarianism which is unappealing to me. It isnt explicit, and it isnt necessary by default, but human nature is by default selfish.

When you extrapolate this selfishness out a thousandfold into the future, the disparity between the haves and have nots becomes cataclysmic to civil society.

The only way I can see a libertarian capitalist utopia actually working is when people at the very very top, the .001%, act in a manner which benefits society at large.

But the problem is, for every Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, there are 10 Dick Cheneys and Mitt Romneys.

Sadly, the 1% are not a benevolent group: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/27/the-rich-are-as-selfish-as-you-think.html

[pedrog]

Libertarianism has many branches, the one you are referring to is beneficial to a very small group of people, the filthy rich, those are the guys who do not want any regulation so they can manipulate the market for their own advantage.

Here's a small example on why that is not good thing:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/09/30/3573680/trade-deal-europe-food-safety/

[Spendulus]

"I've never met a poor or non-white libertarian..."

And this has caused me to rethink my views. ...

I have.

Maybe you just need to get around more?

[cryptonikus]

Total eradication of state is non realistic for this century. We are not far enough. Today libertarian - freemarket society would be actually bruteforce market.
gang wars everywhere. Street gangs fighting guerilla style in streets and  higher financial mafia gangs fighting on markets. Ordinary people would be slaves , exactly like in times before creation of state. Who would control public order? Private corporations are obliged to create profit, not to guarantee your rights. They would do whatever is more beneficial to them, you would be just comodity, not human being.

[hodap]

Libertarianism has many branches, the one you are referring to is beneficial to a very small group of people, the filthy rich, those are the guys who do not want any regulation so they can manipulate the market for their own advantage.

Here's a small example on why that is not good thing:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/09/30/3573680/trade-deal-europe-food-safety/

No one can manipulate the market for long. Even entity such as Fed needs to play by the rules or face demise going against market force.

[newflesh]

I doubt you'll ever meet one...

The only way I can see a libertarian capitalist utopia actually working is when people at the very very top, the .001%, act in a manner which benefits society at large.

Not very likely. Libertarians aren't exactly reknowned for their generosity, it goes against everything Ayn Rand preached

[CripLib]

Well, I am poor, I am non-white, and I am libertarian... nice to meet you

[Lethn]

Gee thanks, nice to know someone out there in the world views someone's ideology purely based on whether they're white, I truly enjoy it when someone talks about themselves so benignly and then proceeds to spew an incredibly racist and hypocritical rant just because they think it's okay to say that kind of shit to white people, you know, because they deserve it. I also find it even more amusing when these people rant about how selfish people like Libertarians and Anarchists are and completely ignore the fact that they aren't the ones going around and forcing people to pay taxes through either threat of imprisonment or gunpoint, because that's oh so much better for a society to be oppressed through fear rather than letting them be generous to society through choice.

As it stands, Anarcho-Communists, Anarcho-Syndicalists and even Marxists have more fucking empathy from me than people like the OP, when government loyalists acknowledge the fact that you go to jail if you don't pay your taxes then we'll talk.

[TrailingComet]

So you have never ever met non-white folks of significant means? Significant wealth increasingly equates to libertarian sympathies regardless of race or ethnicity

[pedrog]

Gee thanks, nice to know someone out there in the world views someone's ideology purely based on whether they're white, I truly enjoy it when someone talks about themselves so benignly and then proceeds to spew an incredibly racist and hypocritical rant just because they think it's okay to say that kind of shit to white people, you know, because they deserve it. I also find it even more amusing when these people rant about how selfish people like Libertarians and Anarchists are and completely ignore the fact that they aren't the ones going around and forcing people to pay taxes through either threat of imprisonment or gunpoint, because that's oh so much better for a society to be oppressed through fear rather than letting them be generous to society through choice.

As it stands, Anarcho-Communists, Anarcho-Syndicalists and even Marxists have more fucking empathy from me than people like the OP, when government loyalists acknowledge the fact that you go to jail if you don't pay your taxes then we'll talk.

Well, just doing Devil's Advocate for a bit, but why people who refuse to pay taxes should not pay a price for that? They sure enjoy the same privileges as everyone else. Are some people entitled to a free ride?

[Lethn]

What if they want nothing to do with the shitty system they've been born into? You're simply assuming because they don't want to pay taxes they want to take benefits as well.

[pedrog]

What if they want nothing to do with the shitty system they've been born into? You're simply assuming because they don't want to pay taxes they want to take benefits as well.

It's very, very difficult to live in a place and not take any benefit from it, how do you suppose that can be achieved?

[Lethn]

What if they want nothing to do with the shitty system they've been born into? You're simply assuming because they don't want to pay taxes they want to take benefits as well.

It's very, very difficult to live in a place and not take any benefit from it, how do you suppose that can be achieved?

By not forcing their beliefs on them? As I've said possibly a million times now, I have nothing against people just helping each other voluntarily but when people claim that they pay taxes so that they can have healthcare etc. to make sure people don't get left in the street to die then proceed to bitch and whine when said people are found to not pay their taxes I find that pretty hypocritical because it shows that's not what they meant in the slightest.

[TheButterZone]

Bullshit. Since when are libertarians required to wear Jew badges and provide their income level for everyone they meet to see?

[pedrog]

What if they want nothing to do with the shitty system they've been born into? You're simply assuming because they don't want to pay taxes they want to take benefits as well.

It's very, very difficult to live in a place and not take any benefit from it, how do you suppose that can be achieved?

By not forcing their beliefs on them? As I've said possibly a million times now, I have nothing against people just helping each other voluntarily but when people claim that they pay taxes so that they can have healthcare etc. to make sure people don't get left in the street to die then proceed to bitch and whine when said people are found to not pay their taxes I find that pretty hypocritical because it shows that's not what they meant in the slightest.

Sorry, I'm not following. What does belief has to do with it?

You could make a case that if someone lives in their property and never goes to the outside world and is completely autonomous, that person should not pay taxes on the land they own, well I say they do have to pay taxes, because at some point they do lived among the rest of society and took advantage of all it has to offer. There's no free lunch...

[Lethn]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

[pedrog]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

[TheButterZone]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

[pedrog]

Like I said, you're just pushing your own beliefs onto somebody who was simply born into that situation, they don't owe you anything just for living.

Do they ever went to the hospital? Did they went to school? did they ever used a road? How about electricity? Water?

We are social animals and we have live in a society, there are many resources and infrastructure that are shared, directly or indirectly, by everyone and they do need to be paid for.

Like I said, there's no free lunch.

Fucking newborn babies not able to instantly teleport themselves out of tax slavery as soon as they leave the womb!

Correct.

[TheButterZone]

Hospitals: not monopoly government-run
Schools: not monopoly government-run
Roads: construction funded privately once upon a time, now usurped and effectively monopolized by tax funding
Electricity: not monopoly government-provided
Water: not monopoly government-provided

Homeland security: right to self-defense infringed, usurped by the government despite longstanding legal precedent of no duty to protect, poorly provided at best, civil rights violations 24/7/365 at worst