United we stand, divided we fall - the coming rise of cryptofiat

[adonai]

++!
этo тo, o чём я нe пepecтaю дyмaть. / there is the things i can't stop think about

thanx! we translate your post in russian: http://forklog.com/eto-prizyv-k-vojne-bitkojn-razrabotchik-obyavil-vojnu-natsionalnym-gosudarstvam/

[Quanttek]

Great. A new all powerful bogeyman. Cryptofiat.

What are the essential characteristics of this new fictional threat? I note they have not been described anywhere up thread.

It's something like Ripple, just by the gov. It is not really about the blockchain or the decentralized anture of Bitcoin. Cryptofiat only means, that they will probably use a blockchain system to keep track of all dollars, euros etc to get the same transactions speeds and fees, which would render Bitcoin useless for the normal user. Hence, even economic professors state this^[1]

[1]One recent example: Futuremag on arte, german/french tv station with a recent (and very positive) segment about BTC: German: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV2yOYhTD-g French: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmpmUFlK9tg&list=UU2u8DRz3KhzXo9h3g__ZhzQ

[David Latapie]

Great. A new all powerful bogeyman. Cryptofiat.

What are the essential characteristics of this new fictional threat? I note they have not been described anywhere up thread.

Sorry if this was not clear. This means I should amend my text and make it more clear.

Cryptofiat: governments (and megacorpo) recognize the usefulness of the blockchain tech but don't want to share the power of minting money with the world at large (Bitcoin) but want to keep tight control over it, like it'd been done for millenia (ahem, Fed). Example in the work: Nicaragua.
Please, tell me if it is understandable. By "understandable", I do not mean you agree with it or not, just if you understand the idea. This is what Quanttek said and thank you for the link!

thanx! we translate your post in russian: http://forklog.com/eto-prizyv-k-vojne-bitkojn-razrabotchik-obyavil-vojnu-natsionalnym-gosudarstvam/

Thank you for notifying me. If you get some interesting feedback, I'd appreciate you sum them up here.

[Beliathon]

Cryptofiat: governments (and megacorpo) recognize the usefulness of the blockchain tech but don't want to share the power of minting money with the world at large (Bitcoin) but want to keep tight control over it...

Please alert me when this FascismCoin hits the market, I'd sure love to divest my savings from bitcoin and dump them there. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either!

 

[David Latapie]

Update:
Exactly where the economist speaks about cryptofiat (without using the term)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmpmUFlK9tg&t=11m47s (French, probably the same in German)

[jbreher]

Great. A new all powerful bogeyman. Cryptofiat.

What are the essential characteristics of this new fictional threat? I note they have not been described anywhere up thread.

Sorry if this was not clear. This means I should amend my text and make it more clear.

Cryptofiat: governments (and megacorpo) recognize the usefulness of the blockchain tech but don't want to share the power of minting money with the world at large (Bitcoin) but want to keep tight control over it, like it'd been done for millenia (ahem, Fed). Example in the work: Nicaragua.
Please, tell me if it is understandable. By "understandable", I do not mean you agree with it or not, just if you understand the idea.

I think I understand the _idea_. But I don't understand the characteristics of an actual _implementation_. Sounds like you are scared of your shadowboxing sparring partner.

Why would governments use a blockchain to enact fiat? Why would they just not print it at random as they have always done? It is easier, they know how that system works, and there is no advantage to them to put it on a blockchain.

I guess they can watch all the transactions, but they can already watch the vast majority with our current system. I don't think they'd constrian their abilities for this incremental (tyrannical) benefit.

[AGD]

Isn't "cryptofiat" by definition the same thing we call "fiat" nowadays?

[51percemt]

Great. A new all powerful bogeyman. Cryptofiat.

What are the essential characteristics of this new fictional threat? I note they have not been described anywhere up thread.

Sorry if this was not clear. This means I should amend my text and make it more clear.

Cryptofiat: governments (and megacorpo) recognize the usefulness of the blockchain tech but don't want to share the power of minting money with the world at large (Bitcoin) but want to keep tight control over it, like it'd been done for millenia (ahem, Fed). Example in the work: Nicaragua.
Please, tell me if it is understandable. By "understandable", I do not mean you agree with it or not, just if you understand the idea.

I think I understand the _idea_. But I don't understand the characteristics of an actual _implementation_. Sounds like you are scared of your shadowboxing sparring partner.

Why would governments use a blockchain to enact fiat? Why would they just not print it at random as they have always done? It is easier, they know how that system works, and there is no advantage to them to put it on a blockchain.

I guess they can watch all the transactions, but they can already watch the vast majority with our current system. I don't think they'd constrian their abilities for this incremental (tyrannical) benefit.

Another reason why the government would not want this is because with a publicly viewable blockchain everyone would know exactly what information is available and against them. With the current fiat system the government can not only monitor the flow of money but they do not necessarily need to tell a suspect of a crime the extent of the evidence against him (or what the government may be able to uncover in the future) which would give a suspect an incentive to confess if they have committed a financial crime.

[cbeast]

Cryptofiat: governments (and megacorpo) recognize the usefulness of the blockchain tech but don't want to share the power of minting money with the world at large (Bitcoin) but want to keep tight control over it...

Please alert me when this FascismCoin hits the market, I'd sure love to divest my savings from bitcoin and dump them there. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either!

 

This is what I've been proposing for a long time. Basically it has the security, pseudonymity, and protection from counterfeiting of a cryptocurrency, but no speculative value because it is fiat and issued by a state. Basically it's a bitcoin premined coin backed by the treasury debt. It's also an ideal platform for a PoS coin.

Folks would trade bitcoins with other cryptofiat coin's. Governments would have the best of both worlds and bitcoin becomes the defacto reserve currency.

[rpietila]

Isn't "cryptofiat" by definition the same thing we call "fiat" nowadays?

No. Currently fiat is managed in banks' excelsheets. It can be moved to blockchain with increased security. When more and more of the premine is emitted to the market, it is visible. It has some advantages. I would likely take it over the current bank cash.

[bitcoinbot]

Did you mean prostitution or should that have been Prohibition?

[evok3d]

“Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero.” (Voltaire, 1694-1778) Often Rather Quickly

I really like your post +1

I would still perhaps consider the other side that when you compare the evolution of technologies (radio vs tv etc.) you are not considering the HUGE dept fiat has been tied into. If they were to replace this with a cryptofiat how would they overcome the large depts that are tied into it between almost all nations around the world?  This is just a small scope on what differences there could be between the two though your point remains valid in that, we need to stop infighting and start realizing we are all but the children of a single entity and that we all have but one goal. There are a lot of weak hands and opportunist (as there always is with things of value) who care not for the overall success of bitcoin but their short/med/long term gains and other law makers who look to disease bitcoin with their sick fiat regulations that has created a cancerous currency.

Just some thoughts. We will see and stand by the moral code of bitcoin as always as much as possible.

[Beliathon]

I would still perhaps consider the other side that when you compare the evolution of technologies (radio vs tv etc.) you are not considering the HUGE dept fiat has been tied into. If they were to replace this with a cryptofiat how would they overcome the large depts that are tied into it between almost all nations around the world?

There is only one traditional way of resolving international debt...

[btcusury]

1. I don't like the word "enemy", it brings hate and I am like Churchill, I don't hate people, I just compete with them.
[...]
This is a war and we are soldiers

A war in which soldiers compete is not a war, so why use pathological terminology? Thinking of the crypto revolution as a "war" plays into the hands of the warmongers whom the crypto revolution is putting out of business.

Meanwhile, what we, Cryptolanders, doing? Self-congratulation ("we're gonna kill banksters") and infightings ("my coin is better than thyne"). These are signs of decadence.

Seems like an absurd generalization that leaves out of the picture the coders/thinkers who are working on novel crypto projects... such as yourself, no?

And since blockchain has tremendous uses out of money, you can be sure that incentives for moving to "crypto-everyting" will be there. Governement could even encourage it.

I think resistance to change is overwhelmingly dominant in authoritarian control structures, in government and also in the dinosaur banking system. Even if not, the innovation brought about by the decentralized ledger means we are at a huge advantage. Have you seen this idea for "crypto-everything"? The Cryptoglobalist Coalition

Hey, I'm French, I know what I am talking about, we have an A-grade in Stubborness and Stupidity (Africa, Indochina...) whereas the British were much smarter.

Is that a justification of colonialism (i.e. violent subjugation and mass murder) as "Stubborness and Stupidity", or do I read you wrong?

[David Latapie]

Why would governments use a blockchain to enact fiat? Why would they just not print it at random as they have always done? It is easier, they know how that system works, and there is no advantage to them to put it on a blockchain.

I guess they can watch all the transactions, but they can already watch the vast majority with our current system. I don't think they'd constrian their abilities for this incremental (tyrannical) benefit.

Blockchain advantages in cost reduction
Transparent blockchain advantages in surveillance
"To kill your enemy, become your enemy"
These are just the off the top of my head. Longer consideration would lead to even more usecases.

Isn't "cryptofiat" by definition the same thing we call "fiat" nowadays?

Yes and no.
No because it is blockchain-based
Yes because it government-issued and enforced

Another reason why the government would not want this is because with a publicly viewable blockchain everyone would know exactly what information is available and against them. With the current fiat system the government can not only monitor the flow of money but they do not necessarily need to tell a suspect of a crime the extent of the evidence against him (or what the government may be able to uncover in the future) which would give a suspect an incentive to confess if they have committed a financial crime.

How would it be any different than now?

Folks would trade bitcoins with other cryptofiat coin's. Governments would have the best of both worlds and bitcoin becomes the defacto reserve currency.

Or the de facto killed currency.
"Fast transaction? We have it, even faster than bitcoin, because we are PoS"
"Security? Our central bank and government hold most of the coin at any given moment, so 51% is not possible. Not only this, but it will never be possible - with Bitcoin, you are at the mercy of some terrorist groups having more miners than the honest taxpayers."
"Adoption? Nothing can beat a governement-issue money, the same as your grandparents used to use. Fully credit-card compatible - try to use your VISA with Bitcoin."
"You are in the Eurozone and you insist on being paid with something else than Euro? What is wrong with you? Maybe I should call the police."

Did you mean prostitution or should that have been Prohibition?

Both . The non-prohibition of prostitution doesnt' cost (enough) money. The non-prohibition of Bitcoin could cost a lot of money to some persons

1. I don't like the word "enemy", it brings hate and I am like Churchill, I don't hate people, I just compete with them.
[...]
This is a war and we are soldiers

A war in which soldiers compete is not a war, so why use pathological terminology? Thinking of the crypto revolution as a "war" plays into the hands of the warmongers whom the crypto revolution is putting out of business.

You got me on this one The title is a reference to Matrix Reloaded and is intended to prove a point, whilst the footnote is more about the actual psychology to have.

Meanwhile, what we, Cryptolanders, doing? Self-congratulation ("we're gonna kill banksters") and infightings ("my coin is better than thyne"). These are signs of decadence.

Seems like an absurd generalization that leaves out of the picture the coders/thinkers who are working on novel crypto projects... such as yourself, no?

One cannot deny that most activity in altcoin is about infightings. Not all of course, but most.

I think resistance to change is overwhelmingly dominant in authoritarian control structures, in government and also in the dinosaur banking system. Even if not, the innovation brought about by the decentralized ledger means we are at a huge advantage. Have you seen this idea for "crypto-everything"? The Cryptoglobalist Coalition

Until the matter of money (or reelection) comes to dinner. All of a sudden, they are surprisingly reactive. The decentralized ledger is not an advantage for us. It as an advantage for all. Hence cryptofiat.

Hey, I'm French, I know what I am talking about, we have an A-grade in Stubborness and Stupidity (Africa, Indochina...) whereas the British were much smarter.

Is that a justification of colonialism (i.e. violent subjugation and mass murder) as "Stubborness and Stupidity", or do I read you wrong?

You read me wrong. I meant that France did not accept its colonies' request for independance and it ended up in bloodbath. Constrast UK, which negociated peaceful separation. Today, the Queen of UK still rules Australia and Canada (even if it is purely symbolical) and, more importantly, not much blood was spilt. So, this is neither a justification nor a denonciation of colonialism, just a reminder of two different ways to deal with a crisis: being inflexible and make it end badly for all (France), or be flexible and make it a win-win situation (UK).

[cbeast]

Folks would trade bitcoins with other cryptofiat coin's. Governments would have the best of both worlds and bitcoin becomes the defacto reserve currency.

Or the de facto killed currency.

"You are in the Eurozone and you insist on being paid with something else than Euro? What is wrong with you? Maybe I should call the police."

Exactly my point. If everyone chooses a cryptofiat of their own, nobody will accept anyone else's as legal tender. They will have to exchange them at the border. Rather than pick one nation like USA to be the reserve currency so they can enjoy all the benefits of that status, why not a neutral gold-like cryptocurrency?

[Biomech]

David, that was a great read. In principle, I actually fully agree with you there.

As a man dedicated to bringing down the current system of governments (I am an anarchist), I think that the best way to do it is twofold: Use their services to bankrupt them, and incrementally render their currency worthless and irrelevant WHILE replacing it with something.

Governments are organisms, and organisms adapt or perish. The goal then, is to make them adapt to liberty over time. On front number one, we should use each and every "service" they monopolize to the maximum of our ability WITHOUT being dependent on it.

Front number two, well, the first part of it requires no action from the activist. They couldn't shoot themselves in the foot any better than they do. All full fiat currencies fail. It's as inevitable as the sun rise.

I think Cryptos are a big part of the second part. I work for a company that will integrate fiat and crypto to a greater level than it has ever seen. That interconvertability will not harm crypto, and probably not harm fiat in the short run. It will strengthen both.

But cryptos are not very open to manipulation and obfuscation of the money supply. They increase at a predictable rate, and attempts to alter it require a large consensus. This makes them a superior form of fiat. (I've long said that cryptcurrency IS a fiat currency, but it is not a CENTRALIZED fiat currency. It's still backed solely by intangibles, as opposed to commodity monies. I think this will merge to some extent in the future, as I think that I'm not the only one interested in creating crypto purchased "backups" of precious metals and other durable goods.

We're at the early stage of a highly revolutionary change in monetary operability, but in many ways it's more of an evolutionary change.

As much as I would personally like to see all governments fall today, the truth is that this would be catastrophic for the vast majority of people. at the moment. Crypts can help that, as they are a difficult to trace means of storing value. There is of course a great deal more that has to be done to get people at large to learn what self reliant MEANS, let alone how to do it.

More later. As always, you make me think. I like that in a person.

[jbreher]

Why would governments use a blockchain to enact fiat? Why would they just not print it at random as they have always done? It is easier, they know how that system works, and there is no advantage to them to put it on a blockchain.

Blockchain advantages in cost reduction

There is absolutely no scenario under which a centralized blockchain implementation can be a cost reduction over a database.

[David Latapie]

Thanks Biomech for your reply.

Look at this, from las Thursday: National Bank of Serbia states Bitcoin is not legal tender in country. First forbid, second propose an "authorized version" (cryptofiat - probably by then, Serbia will be in Eurozone - if not, then we'll see cryprodinar).

To be fair, I don't think much politicians are considering cryptofiat - they are just afraid of what they can't control. But surely later on the idea of cryptofiat will be a convincing argument for them.

[Cortex7]

Why would governments use a blockchain to enact fiat? Why would they just not print it at random as they have always done? It is easier, they know how that system works, and there is no advantage to them to put it on a blockchain.

Blockchain advantages in cost reduction

There is absolutely no scenario under which a centralized blockchain implementation can be a cost reduction over a database.

Exactly!