October 2014. Are GPU rigs useless?

[moiraine]

only worth this point if y ou have free elec, you can make around 0.0015~btc/day/280x...

[1714189738]

1714189738

[1714189738]

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[aricleather]

My 750 Ti makes a bit of profit... When a coins difficulty drops and simultaneously its price goes up. Then I make 3-7¢ maybe.

[Mushito]

GPU will always be better than ASICS for the long term in my opinion.  AISCs get outdated very quick and become paper weights.  GPU always has some resale value and can mine all the new algos that will take months if not years to develop ASICs for.

[bensam123]

Yes it was, now it's back to being almost on par with the other algos, only it uses more power. So people are losing money if they're mining at 'equal' rates across all their cards. Nice hashes % doesn't take into account power usage. Each one of my systems uses about 100 more watts of power when mining NeoScrypt.

It's fine and dandy to think GPU miners are better, but I could've probably made a lot more money juggling ASICs then I did on GPUs. It looks like the BTC market doesn't want to budge either, it climbs and then people sell it all.

I can't help but think people are mining on a whim right now because they think last november is going to happen again, so x11 and other algos are all SUPER negative at the moment. All the machines that were switched off, are on again mining at negative profit for possible 'future profit'. They're playing the lottery. On the bright side, that probably means when we're still sitting around 400 BTC in Jan, all those machines will be sold as this is their last 'huzzah'.

We (GPU miners) really need more efficient kernels.

[phzi]

Right now, R9 290s are consistently profitable at $0.10/kwh.  Not greatly profitable, but they produce more then power costs while providing free heat.  This is based on publicly available mining software and immediate conversion to fiat.

[cassimares]

Yes it was, now it's back to being almost on par with the other algos, only it uses more power. So people are losing money if they're mining at 'equal' rates across all their cards. Nice hashes % doesn't take into account power usage. Each one of my systems uses about 100 more watts of power when mining NeoScrypt.

It's fine and dandy to think GPU miners are better, but I could've probably made a lot more money juggling ASICs then I did on GPUs. It looks like the BTC market doesn't want to budge either, it climbs and then people sell it all.

I can't help but think people are mining on a whim right now because they think last november is going to happen again, so x11 and other algos are all SUPER negative at the moment. All the machines that were switched off, are on again mining at negative profit for possible 'future profit'. They're playing the lottery. On the bright side, that probably means when we're still sitting around 400 BTC in Jan, all those machines will be sold as this is their last 'huzzah'.

We (GPU miners) really need more efficient kernels.

No, you don't - more efficient kernels means more miners, higher diff.

And that usually means more heat and more energy. Am I right?

[phzi]

Yes it was, now it's back to being almost on par with the other algos, only it uses more power. So people are losing money if they're mining at 'equal' rates across all their cards. Nice hashes % doesn't take into account power usage. Each one of my systems uses about 100 more watts of power when mining NeoScrypt.

It's fine and dandy to think GPU miners are better, but I could've probably made a lot more money juggling ASICs then I did on GPUs. It looks like the BTC market doesn't want to budge either, it climbs and then people sell it all.

I can't help but think people are mining on a whim right now because they think last november is going to happen again, so x11 and other algos are all SUPER negative at the moment. All the machines that were switched off, are on again mining at negative profit for possible 'future profit'. They're playing the lottery. On the bright side, that probably means when we're still sitting around 400 BTC in Jan, all those machines will be sold as this is their last 'huzzah'.

We (GPU miners) really need more efficient kernels.

No, you don't - more efficient kernels means more miners, higher diff.

And that usually means more heat and more energy. Am I right?

Depends what you mean by "efficient."  Usually faster kernels use more power and therefore produce more heat, yes.  But, if by efficient you mean balancing power and output, a maxed out kernel and miner configuration is rarely most optimal.

[triplef]

Just came back from a 4 months hiatus from the world of crytos. My GPU rigs have been asleep for the summer because of the heat. Right now, is it still possible to use a GPU rig in a manner that will be profitable? Or should I just dismantle them and sell the parts?

Since summer is over, same goes for a lot of people. Difficulty going to increase for all algo. So yeah GPU is useless for mining.

Not the case; I'm turning a profit at $0.11 USD per kWh.

Why do you always make posts similar to this, which inevitably leads to noobs asking you how you do so, to which you'll brag about the magic kernels that you've made and only you have access to? You give people false hope and waste time. It gets annoying.

That said, I don't think you should share your kernels and understand why you don't. Doesn't it get annoying having people beg you for them? If I were you I'd STFU about them and enjoy the extra profit, like I'm sure a good number of people do who may have just as good or even better custom kernels.

No, with public miners, I can.

I'd like to see these profitable public kernels... I've scoured the forums and pretty much all the good ones have been integrated into sgminer 5. So if it is public, as you say, and you aren't just bragging about your private kernels as per usual, where do you find these?

home miner here and still mining...investing or mining a coin/coins is a risk.....cryptos including bitcoin is risk.

invest/mine only what you can afford to lose.

Just because you invest in something doesn't mean you want to lose it, even if you can.

FTC was good for a bit.

sure aint no more, its now neoscrypt and nh now has neoscrypt too

[bensam123]

People are fucking retarded if they're using their GPUs as space heaters and using that as part of their profitability equation. That means in spring, everyone is going to be super negative, everyone will sell their rigs (or hold them till next winter?), and the economy will bomb again. I wondered what was going on, but this is so asinine I don't even know what to think of it.

Breaking even with power costs is not the same as making money, especially considering how much you could have if you sold your cards. They DO depreciate, which happened recently with the release of the 970/980 and AMDs price cuts to all their cards because of it. People that are using their GPUs as space heaters (and using that as part of their profitability equation) are just wrecking things for themselves and other people.


Efficiency is hash/watt

No, you don't - more efficient kernels means more miners, higher diff.

Miners don't magically scale up, people buy them. People aren't going to buy them if they aren't remotely profitable. There are some (stupid) people that have been clinging to their hardware till winter to switch it on and use it as a space heater, but they'll die off in spring time. Otherwise it doesn't magically scale up. There is opportunity cost and if say a 280x was making a dollar a day, it'd still take a half a year of those prices to pay it off. As it stands right now, most people didn't get to pay off their loans from their mining hardware if they bought it last January or later (not nov or dec).

Mining reached equilibrium around the price of power and that's a real world variable people take into account. Higher hashrate kernels always means higher difficulty as everyone ends up on the same kernel. Lower power costs does not mean more GPUs as their is a entry cost, depreciation, and opportunity cost for using a GPU, there isn't for using a new kernel...

I don't think anyone would tell you it's a good time to get into crypto mining on GPUs right now.

[phzi]

People are fucking retarded if they're using their GPUs as space heaters and using that as part of their profitability equation. That means in spring, everyone is going to be super negative, everyone will sell their rigs (or hold them till next winter?), and the economy will bomb again. I wondered what was going on, but this is so asinine I don't even know what to think of it.

What's wrong with subsidize heating?  You don't like free heat?  It absolutely makes sense to mine for heat even if you're only breaking even on power costs...

Only short-termers sell rigs in the spring...  It might only take a week of highly profitable mining to make hanging onto 30 cards worthwhile vs selling them.  And if you've got large spaces or several buildings to keep warm during the winter, then you can save yourself thousands in heating costs.

Breaking even with power costs is not the same as making money, especially considering how much you could have if you sold your cards. They DO depreciate, which happened recently with the release of the 970/980 and AMDs price cuts to all their cards because of it. People that are using their GPUs as space heaters (and using that as part of their profitability equation) are just wrecking things for themselves and other people.

Slightly above breaking even with power costs is the minimum required to make money..  Sell cards?  Why?  Wrecking it for other people?  LOLOLOLOLOL

Efficiency is hash/watt

That's one way of looking at it - you could also say that the most efficient miner is the one that's producing the most hashes... depends what matters to you... wattage won't necessarily matter to everyone's idea of mining efficiency.

Miners don't magically scale up, people buy them. People aren't going to buy them if they aren't remotely profitable. There are some (stupid) people that have been clinging to their hardware till winter to switch it on and use it as a space heater, but they'll die off in spring time. Otherwise it doesn't magically scale up. There is opportunity cost and if say a 280x was making a dollar a day, it'd still take a half a year of those prices to pay it off. As it stands right now, most people didn't get to pay off their loans from their mining hardware if they bought it last January or later (not nov or dec).

You call it stupid, I call it smart.  All my hardware made ROI long ago (of course, after paying for the power), and is well in profit.  Now it's the most efficient heater you could ever imagine (it pays for itself and then some!)

I don't think anyone would tell you it's a good time to get into crypto mining on GPUs right now.

Oh definitely, I can't see who would invest right now.  But if you already have the GPUs, and you're keeping them for some reason (people will have various reasons), why not have free heat for the winter?

[phzi]

I love the "wrecking it for other people" part. Stop mining because I want diff to go down! 

Bingo.  It's not very many comments capable of earning that many L's and O's strung together.

Nothing in technology that is profitable for a home user is likely to stay that way.  Economies of scale are simply too advantageous, and where there is profit (or these days, free or heavily subsidized heating), there will be those who take advantage and those who cry about it.

[bensam123]

What's wrong with subsidize heating?  You don't like free heat?  It absolutely makes sense to mine for heat even if you're only breaking even on power costs...

Only short-termers sell rigs in the spring...  It might only take a week of highly profitable mining to make hanging onto 30 cards worthwhile vs selling them.  And if you've got large spaces or several buildings to keep warm during the winter, then you can save yourself thousands in heating costs.

Opportunity cost, buy a $30 heater from WalMart. Thousands of dollars worth of hardware that is depreciating isn't the same thing (They've already lost 2/3s their value since last spring)

30 cards wouldn't heat large buildings. That's probably 6000w worth of heat at x11, that's enough for a small house depending on how cold it is and how well it's insulated. Gas is cheaper then electric for heating as well, much cheaper.

Slightly above breaking even with power costs is the minimum required to make money..  Sell cards?  Why?  Wrecking it for other people?  LOLOLOLOLOL

Opportunity cost. What could you be doing with the $5000 instead of having it depreciate in your basement as a space heater. Like put it in a savings account. If you bought those cards with a loan, you're talking interest on top of it, which slightly more then break even isn't covering.

This goes back to spring time, when everyone is super negative (heat isn't subsidized anymore)and it'll either force everyone to sell or sit on it for another six months, which the hardware will depreciate further. If they sell, it'll crash the reusable market and further depreciate the cards.

That's one way of looking at it - you could also say that the most efficient miner is the one that's producing the most hashes... depends what matters to you... wattage won't necessarily matter to everyone's idea of mining efficiency.

Efficiency isn't a foreign concept that's up for definition. More hash when you lose more money is not more efficient. Hashrate is dynamic. If everyone has the same 280x and is using the same kernel, if the hashrate is 1GH/s or 1h/s per 280x it doesn't matter (if they're hashing at the same speed). What does matter is how much power is being used to achieve that. Hashrate is a arbitrary number used to denote how much work a card is doing. The percentage of the pie stays the same (all else being equal) as the difficulty will adjust.

You call it stupid, I call it smart.  All my hardware made ROI long ago (of course, after paying for the power), and is well in profit.  Now it's the most efficient heater you could ever imagine (it pays for itself and then some!)

I bet it did. Except that heater costs $5000 and you could sell that and buy yourself a nice high efficiency furnace and redo the insulation in your house. Not to mention it'll depreciate greatly over the next year. A furnace and insulation will not.

Oh definitely, I can't see who would invest right now.  But if you already have the GPUs, and you're keeping them for some reason (people will have various reasons), why not have free heat for the winter?

Opportunity cost, depreciation, artificially depressing the market for the sake of spiting others.

I love the "wrecking it for other people" part. Stop mining because I want diff to go down! 

Why would my motives matter if the points make sense unless you're being illogical and doing 'dumb' things for the sake of spiting me?

[bensam123]

Six GPUs can heat an apartment. 30 would supply a blast furnace. Also, if you have GPU rigs that are paid off - why not? Some people ENJOY mining. Like me.

Apartments are usually tiny from a square footage perspective and have heat included (almost always). If you're into a upstairs unit you're also more then likely receiving plenty of heat from the unit below you.

Having close to that number of GPUs, I can tell you it will maybe heat a small house using x11. Blast furnace my ass. You have no idea how many BTUs a normal furnace puts out to heat your home (hydronic or forced air). Gas is ridiculously cheaper and so are furnaces.

Not everyone uses the excuse 'hobby' to operate at a loss. If that's you, obviously talking about trade offs and profit doesn't apply to you. There are plenty of people who got into GPU mining to make a profit, I'd say most people did. The residual may be hobbyists after everything crashes and burns, but we're in the middle of crashing right now, which is why I'm trying to talk to people in various ways.

If people are super negative they should sell, trying to get the word out about more efficient algos and hoping I change some minds as far as that's concerned, so people wont be so negative.

Opportunity cost, depreciation, and artificially depressing the market.

[phzi]

Apartments are usually tiny from a square footage perspective and have heat included (almost always). If you're into a upstairs unit you're also more then likely receiving plenty of heat from the unit below you.

That might be true where you live... it certainly is not the case everywhere - far from it... some people pay $1000+ to heat a 500sqft condo over the winter.

Having close to that number of GPUs, I can tell you it will maybe heat a small house using x11. Blast furnace my ass. You have no idea how many BTUs a normal furnace puts out to heat your home (hydronic or forced air). Gas is ridiculously cheaper and so are furnaces.

HAHAHAH... NO!  You can easily spend $3000-5000 on oil to heat a house over the winter months.  Or, you can mine $5000 worth of crypto, and make the same heat.

Not everyone uses the excuse 'hobby' to operate at a loss. If that's you, obviously talking about trade offs and profit doesn't apply to you. There are plenty of people who got into GPU mining to make a profit, I'd say most people did. The residual may be hobbyists after everything crashes and burns, but we're in the middle of crashing right now, which is why I'm trying to talk to people in various ways.

Who said anything about operating at a loss?

If people are super negative they should sell, trying to get the word out about more efficient algos and hoping I change some minds as far as that's concerned, so people wont be so negative.

More efficient algos?  What?  I totally don't understand this statement.  Change what minds about what?

Opportunity cost, depreciation, and artificially depressing the market.

Opportunity cost being paid for in spades - all calculations considered.  Also - what's your lost opportunity cost if there is say, a few days in the future where GPU mining is immensely profitable?  Artificially depressing the market - I also don't understand what you're talking about here...  Either non-sense or, well, something close to non-sense as far as I can see.  There isn't anything artificial about it, and I don't know how actively mining is depressing the market.

[adaseb]

I am pretty sure many are using GPUs as space heaters as the difficulty went thru the roof recently.

[bensam123]

That might be true where you live... it certainly is not the case everywhere - far from it... some people pay $1000+ to heat a 500sqft condo over the winter.

If you're heating a 'condominium', I'm guessing scrounging for money with GPUs isn't on your table... and if you are, seriously bro, do something around your pay grade.

HAHAHAH... NO!  You can easily spend $3000-5000 on oil to heat a house over the winter months.  Or, you can mine $5000 worth of crypto, and make the same heat.

Not sure where you're mining, but you need a LOT of GPUs to make $5000 over winter. Winter being about five months of cold season, I'd make a fraction of that in RAW BTC and I am using about 25 GPUs. You're probably talking about $2000, not including power, which will eat all of that.

No one uses oil to heat their homes anymore, that's ancient (and if you do for god sakes by a high efficiency gas furnace). A standard natural gas bill for a bigger house (like mine) runs about $60 a month. That's $300 over the course of the entire winter.

I'm definitely starting to think whoever is left mining BTC (on GPUs) aren't the brightest bunch, which is why we're left in the predicament we are and unfortunately I bought into this.

Who said anything about operating at a loss?

Show me how you're profiting and then I'll believe it.

More efficient algos?  What?  I totally don't understand this statement.

Fresh was one, x11 at the beginning was another.

Opportunity cost being paid for in spades - all calculations considered.  Also - what's your lost opportunity cost if there is say, a few days in the future where GPU mining is immensely profitable?  Artificially depressing the market - I also don't understand what you're talking about here...  Either non-sense or, well, something close to non-sense as far as I can see.  There isn't anything artificial about it, and I don't know how actively mining is depressing the market.

Reread the definition of opportunity cost. If you're still making a profit on GPU mining you're either using maxwell GPUs or your calculations aren't working out. Opportunity cost is not just making profit either, it's what you could do with the money if you weren't otherwise investing it in say GPUs. Like buying a high efficiency furnace instead of a oil heater you still apparently have, redoing your insulation in your subzero arctic renaissance era condominium.

If the trend of the market is anything, it's that it basically reached equilibrium at power prices ($300-$400 per BTC), so it's not going to spike to $1000. like I said I don't think I'm being grouped with the smartest bunch anymore. As per your last statement, you're betting on the lottery.

Artificially depressing the market is raising difficulty by subsidizing it with something that wont always be there. Heating costs. As I described earlier, when spring time rolls around, everyone who is operating super negative now will either be forced to sell (and there seem to be a lot of people mining at a loss right now) and it'll further push the resale value of GPUs even lower due to the supply surging to market. Or they'll hang onto it till next winter which it'll depreciate again.

Opportunity cost also includes you hanging onto a 280x, which has already been depreciated by the release of maxwell and furthermore by 970/980, which AMD reduced the price of the cards. A high efficiency furnace doesn't depreciate in value every three months.

I am pretty sure many are using GPUs as space heaters as the difficulty went thru the roof recently.

Yes, there are a lot of really stupid people clinging to cards. I didn't expect so many people to still have rigs laying around. Either that or chinese farmers all sold and bought maxwells, which is a possibility, but highly unlikely. With the increase in difficulty it has to be people using GPUs as space heaters. If people are so against selling right now, I'm sure they wouldn't be smart enough to liquidate and buy maxwells.

[thiec]

I have been selling my rigs, with almost half of buying price.
If consider of what i got during mining time, i can say that i make a quite loss

But i have to be "move on" and not stuck with my R9-280X
Crypt coin these days are not suitable for small miner with just around 6 VGA
Better use the money to buy some btc and keep it

[Ignition75]

I just sold my entire farm: http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/Ignition75/media/DSC_0008_zps4d33cb7e.jpg.html

Purchased shares in larger operations, best move I ever made, already made ROI and no electricity bill.

With GPU developers selling custom mining software to the privileged few that are sucking all profit out of the system, don't bother mining unless you have free electricity.

[adaseb]

I just sold my entire farm: http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/Ignition75/media/DSC_0008_zps4d33cb7e.jpg.html

Purchased shares in larger operations, best move I ever made, already made ROI and no electricity bill.

With GPU developers selling custom mining software to the privileged few that are sucking all profit out of the system, don't bother mining unless you have free electricity.

You're situation is different. Many have small rigs (<10 GPUs) who live in old apartment building (where power is a flat rate) or get free electricity from Business/University.

Right now an R9 270X is worth about $100, in one year, it will most likely be worth $80-90 or so. They already depreciated to the max.

At the moment an R9 270X only makes $0.25 per day. After 6 months thats $45. From there the daily profit might either stay the same or become lower.

So the point is, if you have free electricity just keep mining. You already missed the boat to dump the GPU before the price fell.

[bitboy11]

Those rigs are just about worthless now!