For the bulls

[BitcoinNewbie15]

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that



Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

[1714686498]

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[1714686498]

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[BitcoinNewbie15]

Anyone?

[xDan]

Anyone?

Regarding trolls:
A brainless fool can yell "fire" in an oil refinery... He can even run around there with a lit match.

I blame speculation rather than any Willy bots. It was the first mainstream taste of Bitcoin, and lots of greedy people rushed in. People who didn't really understand the technology; and still don't. Maybe some are still finally cutting their losses and bailing out now. I assume professional speculators have fixed points at which they do this. Maybe a lot of those have triggered.

[also, I imagine some new speculators got in during the relative calm of the ~$600 price range, thinking that was the bottom. Maybe they are now getting out again. Maybe Draper is selling his coins!?]

Most any bull you meet is uncertain in the short term about price, but still long term bullish.

[piramida]

I don't know what you want to hear, but it is easy to start believing in false prophets when the times are hard. When there's blood on the streets, there's always a bunch of crazies announcing the end times; that is human nature, to seek like minded people to ease own pain.

[leopard2]

Willy bot was on Mtgox, right ... but on the other exchanges it was not the Willy bot but real money, driving prices over $1000.

Arbitrage from Gox to others was not possible because Gox did not pay out; thus; people with real money looked at Gox and bought (either at Gox or another exchange).

That real money that went into BTC at all other exchanges back then, is not gone, it is just sitting somewhere, and could return into BTC.

[fewcoins]

Willy bot was on Mtgox, right ... but on the other exchanges it was not the Willy bot but real money, driving prices over $1000.

Arbitrage from Gox to others was not possible because Gox did not pay out; thus; people with real money looked at Gox and bought (either at Gox or another exchange).

That real money that went into BTC at all other exchanges back then, is not gone, it is just sitting somewhere, and could return into BTC.

Actually it is not sitting somewhere... It is literally being dumped on the market now ever since $300

[Melbustus]

...
Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly
...

The main rebuttal is long-term vs. short-term thinking. Let's assume the worst case: Miners dump everything every day, all assertions in Willy report are absolutely true, and merchant-selling pressure is in $millions every day. ... Ok, what does *any* of that change about bitcoin's potential market size, the trajectory of adoption, VC investment, ecosystem development, etc? Does that have any influence on the core proposition that bitcoin is a key advance in the technology of money, that the protocol works and is battle-tested, and that bitcoin has huge potential to increase the efficiency of global transactions, as well as to eat into gold's status as the go-to fiat-inflation hedge?

Now, what are the market sizes of those targets, what would 1BTC need to be worth in order to satisfy a reasonable portion of some set of those markets, and what is the probability that bitcoin will get there? Those are the questions you need to ask and quantitatively answer in order to arrive at a rational decision as to whether you think bitcoin is currently undervalued or overvalued.

tl;dr: At least for me, the bull-case is not about short-term dynamics, it's about the long-run (10yrs+). But I've never been a trader, so interpret as you see fit.

[ElectricMucus]

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

[Bobsurplus]

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that



Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.


As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.


Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

[Hyena]

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.


As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.


Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Very nice post! "The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it."

[keystroke]

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.


As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.


Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Very nice post! "The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it."

To the moon! Lots of rockets fail the first few times. We are going to make it there and I can tell you the Earth looks beautiful from the moon -- wait for the view, we are going to enjoy it.

[Bobsurplus]

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.


As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.


Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Very nice post! "The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it."

To the moon! Lots of rockets fail the first few times. We are going to make it there and I can tell you the Earth looks beautiful from the moon -- wait for the view, we are going to enjoy it.

So when will the bitcoin rocket fail for the first time?? 

[Ibian]

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

Posts like this make me happy. It's proof that there are dumbasses in every generation of adoption, not just the most recent one.

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

The mining reward is not just the block subsidy. It's also transfer fees. As traffic increases and reward halves the subsidy will play a smaller part and transfer fees a larger one. Remains to be seen how effective this will be, but that is the idea.

Government bans are bullish. It legitimizes bitcoin as a serious product, if not a threat. Has no to positive effect on the black market, which is huge - some say bigger than the legal market.

[aguanyardiners]

Look, you can go down or up, the fact that you say up or down and it's like you said,

IT DOESN'T MEAN you know anything.

The way falling and his alter ego talked is the the way of a hater or a well paid troll.

[ElectricMucus]

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster
-) No incentive for nodes to relay transactions once the block subsidy has demised.
-) There are Governments who actually do ban Bitcoin itself.

One about the fundamentals of life on earth, one about the fundamentals of the protocol and one about the fundamentals of society.

Posts like this make me happy. It's proof that there are dumbasses in every generation of adoption, not just the most recent one.

No U.

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

The mining reward is not just the block subsidy. It's also transfer fees. As traffic increases and reward halves the subsidy will play a smaller part and transfer fees a larger one. Remains to be seen how effective this will be, but that is the idea.

Government bans are bullish. It legitimizes bitcoin as a serious product, if not a threat. Has no to positive effect on the black market, which is huge - some say bigger than the legal market.

1. Even if you don't believe in climate change the ecological impact of using energy in that matter is an issue. Ignorance of these issues are wide spread amongst right wing libertarians nut I can still blame you for your ignorance of the subject. Do you deny that ecological responsibility is necessary for sustained survival?

2. You seem to lack understanding of the issue: The transfer fees are exactly the problem, they provide a counter-incentive for nodes to relay transactions.
see: http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=156072

Many large decentralized systems rely on information propagation to ensure their proper function. We examine a common scenario in which only participants that are aware of the information can compete for some reward, and thus informed participants have an incentive not to propagate information to others.

3. Typical Anacap Hubris, do you really believe that yourself?

[mmortal03]

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

One doesn't have to think that climate change is a superstition to argue against the idea that bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster.

[fewcoins]

I have a question for the bulls... I am not falling, or any other "troll" account. But i have a few points for the bulls and i was wondering if you could counter them...

Points
- The winklevoss etf will actually be shot down
- just kidding im not doing that



Serious points
- Miners dumping thousands of BTC a day
- A lot of people say, that the only reason BTC hit 1k+ was because of the willy bot. Not to mention there was actually proof of the willy bot on mt gox.
prior to the willy bot, btc wasnt over 250. What if right now, the dust is settling and BTC is returning to what it should naturally be. Which means right now, BTC is currently overpriced
- Merchants convert BTC to USD instantly

And i think it is funny. I was like everyone on this forum a few months ago. I would look at a fallllling thread and laugh, not only at the grammatical errors, but also his crazy predictions. However, he and all the other "trolls" here, have been correct. Maybe they didnt get the time frames right, but they sure did get the prices right. and they can come back, and warn us some more, but we probably wont listen. But the price keeps falllling...

-Miners gotta make money, gotta pay bills.. Nothing we ca do about that.
-btc hit $1000 due to mass panic buying and media coverage.
-Not all, Overstock keeps some for the long term.


As a BTC bull, I'd like to remind you that this is the last time you're gonna see this type of swings. The early adopters/market manipulators have one last go at it. Once the ETF launches we wont be talking about little money like we are today. Today its easy to move the market around with a few million bucks. Think about how hard it going to be be though once that ETF hits. Now were talking aboutevery financial market around the world having a vehicle to invest in bitcoin. One that's safe, trusted and regulated. I'm talking about trillion dollar markets being able to cash out a bit and hedge in btc.


Bitcoin to the moon fellas.....

Another talk of the ETF lol!!! What will you guys do when this ETF that is suppose to dig this coin out of the trenches doesn't even release?!

[ElectricMucus]

Ok, now for some biggies:

-) Bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster

Ecology, or more properly in this context, global warming (later renamed global climate change) is a modern superstition. One of many. Humans need something to believe in and with god being dead and all, new ones had to be invented. This is not a conscious process, but real nonetheless.

One doesn't have to think that climate change is a superstition to argue against the idea that bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster.

I'm all ears.

[mmortal03]

One doesn't have to think that climate change is a superstition to argue against the idea that bitcoin mining is an ecological disaster.

I'm all ears.

There was a video on this that I watched the other day. I'm trying to track it down.

[Elwar]

A few million dollars a month needed for mining.

Banking industry spends billions per month just for keeping the lights on.

The remittance industry charges tens of billions per year just in fees.

As someone who has started working in a foreign country getting paid in dollars...I have seen first hand how Bitcoin is a huge advantage over wire transfer and currency conversion.

For example, my mother came out to visit me here in germany. She exchanged $1000 to 715 euros before she came out through her bank. That is not including what it would have cost to wire it over here if she was not flying.

I sold roughly 3 bitcoins for 900 euros through localbitcoins, then I bought that same amount of bitcoins on CoinBase for $1024. The conversion should have been $1000 for 750 euros (at the time).

Why would I use anything other than Bitcoin? Sell me on using Western Union.