Things said, and fights picked while we're waiting for our BFL products

[SgtSpike]

No, sorry, I agree with #2.  They did say it was their own chip design, and it was proven that it was not.  I don't know that there's any way around that.

It won't stop me from ordering BFL miners, but they did lie about what chip they were using.

But yes, #1 and #3 are essentially the same.

[1715001674]

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[Inaba]

No, sorry, I agree with #2.  They did say it was their own chip design, and it was proven that it was not.  I don't know that there's any way around that.

It won't stop me from ordering BFL miners, but they did lie about what chip they were using.

But yes, #1 and #3 are essentially the same.

I was referring to Mem's lies about "2nd hand chips."  Honestly, I haven't the foggiest clue what he's talking about with regards to "Claiming it's their own design."  I just figured it was more rhetoric and lies.  If it's the one gem of truth in all his lies,  I'm not sure how that's relevant to whether or not they are producing products that function as advertised, though... whether or not they "lied" about "their own design" does not change the fact that they are shipping product in the hundreds (if not thousands?).

[SgtSpike]

No, sorry, I agree with #2.  They did say it was their own chip design, and it was proven that it was not.  I don't know that there's any way around that.

It won't stop me from ordering BFL miners, but they did lie about what chip they were using.

But yes, #1 and #3 are essentially the same.

I was referring to Mem's lies about "2nd hand chips."  Honestly, I haven't the foggiest clue what he's talking about with regards to "Claiming it's their own design."  I just figured it was more rhetoric and lies.  If it's the one gem of truth in all his lies,  I'm not sure how that's relevant to whether or not they are producing products that function as advertised, though... whether or not they "lied" about "their own design" does not change the fact that they are shipping product in the hundreds (if not thousands?).

Right, exactly.  I couldn't care less what chip they use as long as it does what is advertised.

BFL did make a claim that the chip was their own design.  I don't remember when or where they wrote it, but I do remember reading it.  Then again, I could have remembered reading it wrong too... perhaps mem can point us to the proof of where they said it. 

[mem]

BFL did make a claim that the chip was their own design.  I don't remember when or where they wrote it, but I do remember reading it.  Then again, I could have remembered reading it wrong too... perhaps mem can point us to the proof of where they said it. 

Ahh the chip, yes Id check the BFL_Engineer posts back going back awhile, paraphrasing from memory "the chips are of own own design - a custom combination of ASIC and FPGA technology".

Seems their FAQ is updated "The BitForce processor card is a proprietary implementation of both FPGA and ASIC technology.", iirc it was chip/card. Indeed the motherboard is their own design.
Im sure you have all seen the thread with another FPGA engineer stating that they either pay 2k per chip or source them 2nd hand.

[SgtSpike]

BFL did make a claim that the chip was their own design.  I don't remember when or where they wrote it, but I do remember reading it.  Then again, I could have remembered reading it wrong too... perhaps mem can point us to the proof of where they said it. 

Ahh the chip, yes Id check the BFL_Engineer posts back going back awhile, paraphrasing from memory "the chips are of own own design - a custom combination of ASIC and FPGA technology".

Seems their FAQ is updated "The BitForce processor card is a proprietary implementation of both FPGA and ASIC technology.", iirc it was chip/card. Indeed the motherboard is their own design.
Im sure you have all seen the thread with another FPGA engineer stating that they either pay 2k per chip or source them 2nd hand.

I can't find any posts by BFL Engineer that state or imply they are using their own design.  I searched through his entire post history, and ctrl+f for "chip".  He responded to one post asking what chip was being used, and simply said that it was proprietary information, and couldn't be revealed.

Also, do you trust said FPGA engineer regarding the cost per chip?  Maybe BFL found a stash of them on the cheap that he didn't know about?

Even the statement that they were using a chip of their own design might have just been a misstatement by whoever said it, when they really meant their board was of their own design.  It doesn't help that we can't find the original quote either.  Mem, I was expecting better of you!  I expected you to have it all fully documented with links at the ready...

[Inaba]

Even the statement that they were using a chip of their own design might have just been a misstatement by whoever said it, when they really meant their board was of their own design.  It doesn't help that we can't find the original quote either.  Mem, I was expecting better of you!  I expected you to have it all fully documented with links at the ready...

HAHAH... everything Mem has said is basically a lie.  You expected better of him?  Really?

You'll notice he still has not addressed a single point.  He is literally unable to back up even a single point he raises.  He's never done so in any thread he spews his crying in.

[mem]

BFL did make a claim that the chip was their own design.  I don't remember when or where they wrote it, but I do remember reading it.  Then again, I could have remembered reading it wrong too... perhaps mem can point us to the proof of where they said it.  

Ahh the chip, yes Id check the BFL_Engineer posts back going back awhile, paraphrasing from memory "the chips are of own own design - a custom combination of ASIC and FPGA technology".

Seems their FAQ is updated "The BitForce processor card is a proprietary implementation of both FPGA and ASIC technology.", iirc it was chip/card. Indeed the motherboard is their own design.
Im sure you have all seen the thread with another FPGA engineer stating that they either pay 2k per chip or source them 2nd hand.

I can't find any posts by BFL Engineer that state or imply they are using their own design.  I searched through his entire post history, and ctrl+f for "chip".  He responded to one post asking what chip was being used, and simply said that it was proprietary information, and couldn't be revealed.

Also, do you trust said FPGA engineer regarding the cost per chip?  Maybe BFL found a stash of them on the cheap that he didn't know about?

Even the statement that they were using a chip of their own design might have just been a misstatement by whoever said it, when they really meant their board was of their own design.  It doesn't help that we can't find the original quote either.  Mem, I was expecting better of you!  I expected you to have it all fully documented with links at the ready...

Im only human mate not a walking encyclopedia of all things BFL. These things would be a 100 times easier if BFL did not hide all their activities.
Its quite possible BFL found a stash, hence my concern about the volume of pre-orders - I hope they are not accepting more than they can produce.

In light of this new info here is the updated list:

BFL is A Dishonest Company that uses misleading advertising, Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times LIARS - FACT
2) They are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips. SELLING OLD PRODUCTS ADVERTISED AS NEW - LIKELY
3) Accepts more pre-orders than they can fill. OVER SELLING WHILE UNDER VOLUME - FACT (sgtspike pointed out that this was not clear and the wording used previously makes it seem the same as #1 - fixed).
4) Numerous BFL Shills/ trolls plugging BFL or on the forum LIKELY

SgtSpike has agreed with 1&3, inaba despite his rants and the rest of the trolls do as well (if not please correct me, but it does seem everyone agrees on 1&3).

Regarding 2)  sgtspike notes that BFL has made no such claim that they designed their own chip on the forums (Im inclined to believe him unless another quote is provided showing otherwise) but does acknowledge it is quite likely they are using 2nd hand chips passed off as new. It could be a simple miswording, saying chip instead of board - the board is indeed their own design.

The main disagreement atm is if they are or are not a scam - only time will tell.
The other less significant disagreement is that lying to clients constantly == "A dishonest company", I personally would say thats the very definition of "A dishonest company" but I am one person with his opinion come to your own conclusions.

[rjk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock
^^ does not mean secondhand or used.

[mem]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock
^^ does not mean secondhand or used.

Indeed and its nice to see you stopped your childish trolls for a moment to discuss this.

Perhaps they were lucky enough to source these ~$2000 USD chips for less than $400 USD each still new while out of stock etc etc etc.
More likely they are reusing chips in my opinion hence the 6 month warranty and extended burn in time.

The claim is "BFL is able to source these +$2000 USD chips cheap enough to put 2 into a $800 device and make a profit".

Seems a bit outrageous, compare to all other FPGA based bitcoin devices do not go to great lengths to hide the chips type and source.
Does not seem on the level to me, BFL is welcome to step up at any time and clear all these queries.

[rjk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_old_stock
^^ does not mean secondhand or used.

Indeed and its nice to see you stopped your childish trolls for a moment to discuss this.

Perhaps they were lucky enough to source these ~$2000 USD chips for less than $400 USD each still new while out of stock etc etc etc.
More likely they are reusing chips in my opinion hence the 6 month warranty and extended burn in time.

The claim is "BFL is able to source these +$2000 USD chips cheap enough to put 2 into a $800 device and make a profit".

Seems a bit outrageous, compare to all other FPGA based bitcoin devices do not go to great lengths to hide the chips type and source.
Does not seem on the level to me, BFL is welcome to step up at any time and clear all these queries.

BFL doesn't owe you any kind of explanation. Neither is New Old Stock related to being "lucky". What does a distributor do when there is no demand for some ancient product? Simple, supply and demand curves - they discount it.

[SgtSpike]

Hey, I never agreed that they were using 2nd-hand chips, only that they are using chips that are not of their own design.  There is no proof that they are using 2nd-hand chips, besides some random guy on the forum saying that they are expensive chips.  Sure, you can draw your own conclusions from that, but it's not fair to say they are "likely" using 2nd-hand chips just because you see no other plausible explanation.

[Inaba]

Good work Mem, continue lying! Even trying to back up your flimsy bullshit by putting words in SgtSpikes mouth while he's actually reading the thread.

Again, 1 & 3 are the same thing.  If they are "lying about shipping times" then it's because "they are accepting more orders than they can fill."  Any idiot can understand that, what does that make you?

No one has disagreed that they are missing their shipping times.  No one.  Ever.  Anywhere.  Yet you keep harping on it.  That is, quiet literally, your only argument and it's why you try to put it in your ridiculous "list" twice.  Give it up, man.  You are a loser, you are unable to backup a single point you make, and it's clear to everyone and sundry you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.  You, my friend, are the reason people think bitcoiners are idiots.  You talk out your ass without a shred of common sense to filter your steady stream incoherent babbling.

"Most likely using 2nd hand chips."  That is laughable.  Back it up with some evidence.

I won't even dignify #4 with a response, since that is your last, desperate attempt to get people to take you seriously now that it's clear to everyone you've lied multiple times and continue to fabricate events willy nilly.  I suspect you'll just continue your wall of crying, yelling about the same, old tired debunked arguments over and over, hoping someone will listen.  WAAAAAAAAAAA why is no one believing me!!! WAAAAAAAA

tl;dr: Your only complaint that isn't a lie is "They miss their shipping dates."    If you've got something else, speak up and provide some evidence.  No?  Didn't think so.

[mem]

Hey, I never agreed that they were using 2nd-hand chips, only that they are using chips that are not of their own design.  There is no proof that they are using 2nd-hand chips, besides some random guy on the forum saying that they are expensive chips.  Sure, you can draw your own conclusions from that, but it's not fair to say they are "likely" using 2nd-hand chips just because you see no other plausible explanation.

Sorry for the outage, been a bit crook.

I say it is likely/ plausible/ unbelievable that they are doing anything else but sorry for misquoting you.

edit: forgot to include my running summary.
BFL is A Dishonest Company that uses misleading advertising, Possibly A Scam.

1) False advertising regarding shipping times LIARS - FACT
2) They are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips. SELLING OLD PRODUCTS ADVERTISED AS NEW - LIKELY
3) Accepts more pre-orders than they can fill. OVER SELLING WHILE UNDER VOLUME - FACT
4) Numerous BFL Shills/ trolls plugging BFL or on the forum LIKELY

1 & 3) Inaba & SgtSpike has agreed with 1&3.
Inaba will say "SO FUCKING WHAT, THEY LIED FUCK OFF AND SPEND YOUR MONEY ELSE WHERE" this is an agreement (just a childish one).

2)  All signs point to yes, BFL refuses to discuss. Inaba says "SO FUCKING WHAT".

3) Should be noted that their shipping times are getting shorter - a good sign for not being a scam.

4) See Inaba, nuff said.

The other less significant disagreement is that lying to clients constantly == "A dishonest company", I personally would say thats the very definition of "A dishonest company" but I am one person with his opinion come to your own conclusions.

BFL doesn't owe you any kind of explanation. Neither is New Old Stock related to being "lucky". What does a distributor do when there is no demand for some ancient product? Simple, supply and demand curves - they discount it.

Agreed they do not, with the burden of proof on them and them unwilling to backup their claims I am unwilling to buy their product.

They even seem unwilling to make a statement such as "No second hand chips are used in any of out products" much less to back it up.
With the questions/ accusations against them - its their own issue to clear their name or ignore it.

It a shitty way to do business, but I vote with my wallet.

Were BFL to suddenly turn around and address the issues satisfactorily instead of hiding behind their abusive shills like Inaba, Id be ordering 10x.

[Inaba]

You really have no idea what "Burden of proof" means, do you?  YOU are the one making the claim, therefore the burden of proof is on you.  BFL has made no claims one way or the other, therefore they have no burden of proof.  But what can you expect from someone who consistently lies, is proven to lie and is completely unable to counter or provide any evidence for any of his lies.  

Go on Mem, keep lying.  You do good work in the lying department.  Love how you are putting words in not only Sgt Spike's mouth, but my own as well.  Maybe one day you'll grow up and stop crying about people not believing you.  I doubt it though, since the only way you can make your case is by lying, over and over.

PS - 1 & 3 are the same.  Still.  no matter how many times your little brain wishes it were not so, sadly it is.

[mem]

I think Im all healed up

Anyway, to cut this short:

It seems their shipping times are improving rapidly and there have been no people on the forums complaining about not receiving their order.
I still believe they are reusing 2nd hand chips in the single, all current info supports this conclusion, we have seen a few failures reported on the forum regarding this.
They are the very definition of a dishonest company but the product seems legit and more importantly they seem to be satisfying order quantities finally so the likelihood of a long con in the forum of a ponzi scheme is low and getting lower the more  they close that gap.

BFL == LAIRS == FACT
BFL =~ SCAM == Potentially but unlikely at this point.


Its is possible they are simply a small company with terrible pr made worse by fanatical supports such as Inaba coupled with a really bad launch.
If so, sorry BFL but hire a fucking PR guy.

Inaba, I deeply regard that your own lack of self control and maturity prevents you from discussing questions raised about BFL - I have attempted to unignore you to follow up any new points you may have addressed but unfortunately you seem to be just posting bitter sideline comments like a child sulking.
Your personal attacks and rants (and the ridiculous tantrum you threw at MTGOX for your own failure to comprehend site terms and read a simple FAQ) are hard to credit to an adult, if true it is a sad state of affairs.

BFL is A Dishonest Company

1) False advertising regarding shipping times LIARS - FACT
2) They are most likely reusing 2nd Hand Chips. SELLING OLD PRODUCTS ADVERTISED AS NEW - LIKELY
3) Oversold while under volume LIARS - FACT - volume now appears to be catching up to supply, this dramatically reduces the likely hood of a con.
4) Numerous BFL Shills/ trolls plugging BFL or on the forum LIKELY

[Inaba]

Mem = Liar = fact.  

Ergo

Anything Mem says = suspect and should not be believed without checking credible sources.

Inaba, I deeply regard that your own lack of self control and maturity prevents you from discussing questions raised about BFL - I have attempted to unignore you to follow up any new points you may have addressed but unfortunately you seem to be just posting bitter sideline comments like a child sulking.
Your personal attacks and rants (and the ridiculous tantrum you threw at MTGOX for your own failure to comprehend site terms and read a simple FAQ) are hard to credit to an adult, if true it is a sad state of affairs.

It's a sad person who can't even see that those he accuses others of are actually their own faults.  Mem, you are one of the more ignorant, self deluded people I have ever had the dubious pleasure to write to on a forum.  That is quite an accomplishment, as I have plumbed the depths of the most drama filled corners of the internet.  You are simply so thick headed and unable to even understand basic concepts it is absolutely astounding.  At first, I thought you were trolling, albeit very pathetically.  But I have come to the conclusion you actually believe the lies and just plain incorrect things you write, which makes it all the more sad that I bothered to converse with you.  

I say this in all seriousness Mem.  If I had known that you were literally mentally handicapped (maybe not legally, but from a purely uneducated and an "in tune with reality" sort of way.), I would have left you alone.  I don't normally pick on people who are so thoroughly unable to defend themselves; I am happy to pick on trolls and people who can give as good as they get, but you are neither; you never have been and I see that now.  I sincerely apologize for laying into you so hard.  I thought you had the ability to defend yourself, but I was completely and utterly wrong.  You are as simultaneously as defenseless as you are antagonistic (without even realizing how idiotic your writing is) as any individual I have ever had the misfortune to come across.  I would say I hope you learn from this encounter, but I know now that you are incapable (or perhaps just so blinded by your ignorance that you are just unwilling).

Good luck in your future endeavors.  I will continue to call out your abundant lies, but I will do it with a clinical detachment from now on, since it's obvious to everyone and sundry that you are mentally unable to comprehend conversation above a 5th grade level.

[Garr255]

Tempted to rename this to something of the effect of "Inaba and mem's dedicated argument thread"