Greece mulls Euro exit

[GideonGono]

Some serious players are now publicly talking about what some of us knew was inevitable from the beggining. If ever there was a time to push bitcoin hard on the Greeks now is the time. There is already talk of capital controls, bank runs, reintroduction of the Drachma which will be immediately devalued by as much as 50%. They estimate inflation will also be 50%. Sounds a lot like Zimbabwe 10 years ago.

I suggest we start a bounty and commission a translation of the bitcoin client into the Greek language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc17uI2G2oc&feature=plcp

[Stephen Gornick]

Here's an article describing how it could go down:
 - http://www.economicmusings.com/post/22988326533

[barrymac]

http://www.currenciesdirect.com/info-centre/daily-market-analysis/

"The commodity currencies naturally did well on the back of the move, but bullish sentiment remains fleeting at the moment as equity markets in Europe open the week in negative territory. "

Commodity currency anyone? 

[finway]

Why use new currency? Greeks should have the right to use any currency, including bitcoin.

[realnowhereman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9268507/Greece-on-brink-of-collapse.html

Slow bank run in progress?

Citing a secret government document, he said Greeks were already pulling £80 million a day out of the country’s banks. Almost €1 billion (£795 million) has been withdrawn since the last elections on May 6.

[finkleshnorts]

saw this on matonis's twitter, scary stuff. It's an article laying out different exit scenarios for Greece, and they all suck. http://www.economicmusings.com/post/22988326533/what-history-tells-us-about-a-potential-greek-exit

[Realpra]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.
3. Not being able to loan a dime, they would be forced to live within their means.
4. Continue using the euro - who can stop them? Enabling inter-European trade.
5. Continue to cooperate with the EU, free trade and travel etc..
6. Build better country as resources are allocated intelligently.
7. No great "cascade effect" ever happens - EU is stronger, Greece a new growing economy.

What is GOING to happen:
1. Goldman Sachs/others will have them paying back their loans until the card house collapses.
(http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels.html)
2. Then it all falls down and mostly small bond investors are screwed over.
3. With everything collapsing huge under-valued asset grabs are made in Greece by the big bankers.
4. Country suffers for at least a decade.
5. Massive amount of resources are/have already been allocated to bankers and politicians.
6. Corrupt elite spends robbed money mostly on robbing more nations and themselves - EU is weaker.

If you are Greek keep your euros in cash or invest in BTC or you will loose every dime.

In the end BTC will probably rise because of all of this.

[conspirosphere.tk]

Greeks, like the rest of the PIIGS sheeple are pathetic brainwashed spoiled brats europinkos: they just want infinite bailouts so that everybody can suck from the ultra-corrupted state tit, and now they are lost when the bill is due and they cannot even imagine a way out of state's and fiat money's dependence. According the polls still 75% of them just want keep the euro-debt-bubble inflating. They cannot even imagine independence, freedom and self-sufficiency. Speaking 'bout the lowest grade of humanity. Disgusting voluntary slaves.

http://webabuser.blogspot.it/2012/05/greeks-going-to-new-elections-since.html

[Shadow383]

Given the scale of what is about to unfold on the international financial markets, I think we're about to get a field test of how good bitcoin is for people circumventing capital controls.
This is going to be very, very interesting.

[oldDirty]

For myself i hope the € is going to end. Greece is nice to start it up. But a shame it cost Germany 90Mrd Euro and it's lost.

[evoorhees]

Greeks, like the rest of the PIIGS sheeple are pathetic brainwashed spoiled brats europinkos: they just want infinite bailouts so that everybody can suck from the ultra-corrupted state tit, and now they are lost when the bill is due and they cannot even imagine a way out of state's and fiat money's dependence. According the polls still 75% of them just want keep the euro-debt-bubble inflating. They cannot even imagine independence, freedom and self-sufficiency. Speaking 'bout the lowest grade of humanity. Disgusting voluntary slaves.

You're such a troll, but I'll bite anyway.

1) Doesn't Goldman Sachs deserve an honorary mention in your blag for their disgusting role as a predatory lender? Guess not.
2) The Greeks might be pathetic, maybe even brainwashed, but by-and-large the Euro zone is relatively self-sufficient. Whatever money-printing they do doesn't get foisted upon anyone else. America on the other hand, has been sucking off the rest of the entire world's teat for decades, courtesy of the dollar's mysterious "reserve currency" status. I wonder how that happened? Why don't you target some vitriol at them instead?
3) I'm sure there's some kind of long-term treatment programme available for your xenophobia.

I don't think he's a troll, and I don't think blahblah was being xenophobic. He's condemning the Europeans for their actions, not for their ethnicities.  His comments are reasonable, though perhaps not diplomatically stated

If goldman sachs deserves blame, it's not for being a "predatory lender" which is a silly term, but rather for their involvement in government coercion and privilege. A lender should lend at whatever best rate he can... if it's predatory then don't take the loan... if you take the loan it means it was your best option and thus thank goodness it was available. There are many things to blame Goldman Sachs for - seeking high rates of return on loans to desperate borrowers is not one of them.

[Realpra]

According the polls still 75% of them just want keep the euro-debt-bubble inflating.

That's amazing if true...

Gawd I hope it all collapses so the world may return to sanity.

[conspirosphere.tk]

You're such a troll, but I'll bite anyway.
1) Doesn't Goldman Sachs deserve an honorary mention in your blag for their disgusting role as a predatory lender? Guess not.
2) The Greeks might be pathetic, maybe even brainwashed, but by-and-large the Euro zone is relatively self-sufficient. Whatever money-printing they do doesn't get foisted upon anyone else. America on the other hand, has been sucking off the rest of the entire world's teat for decades, courtesy of the dollar's mysterious "reserve currency" status. I wonder how that happened? Why don't you target some vitriol at them instead?
3) I'm sure there's some kind of long-term treatment programme available for your xenophobia.

1) Goldman Sachs has been instrumental in faking the Greek accounting to allow its euro entry. Everybody knew at the time like now that Greece like the rest of the PIIGS cooked their books to enter the Maastricht treaty. Biggest responsibilities are to be found in the political eurocrats since day 1 who wanted a so doomed bureaucratic monster coupled with a so dysfunctional fiat money-debt.
2) Self-sufficient maybe. Apart from energy I fear. Of course I do not doubt that USofA is not less corrupted at all levels, nor less doomed in the medium term. They will end at once with the world reserve currency status of the dollar. But the thread is about Greece and euro.
3) LOL. I am a mediterranean PIIG citizen. I despise my fellows since I use to know them quite well. They, their utter corruption, their lack of courage, independence, imagination, their abject dependence from the state power, etc. etc. etc.

[conspirosphere.tk]

According the polls still 75% of them just want keep the euro-debt-bubble inflating.

That's amazing if true...
Gawd I hope it all collapses so the world may return to sanity.
[/quote]
According to my sources, 95% of people want the big corrupt banks to roll over and die.
[/quote]
Real news reports that 3 out of 4 Greeks want the ECB printing more to keep the ponzi going, and no austerity. Talking 'bout spoiled brats:
Greek Opinion Poll Shows 78% Want Greece to Remain in Euro Area
http://www.moneynews.com/Economy/Greek-Opinion-Poll-euro/2012/05/13/id/438880

[muyuu]

I'd love it if the Euro was scrapped and substituted with some form of honest money. Obviously this isn't going to happen any time soon because it would imply many banks going tits up, which they will try to avoid at any cost, at massive expense for their citizens.

It was a bad idea to begin with. The EEE was just fine, no need for the EU. Definitely not like this.

[ribuck]

Just think how different the outcome would be if there was a local Greek exchanger swapping cash for bitcoins instantly.

Maybe by the time Spain defaults, all the pieces of the Jigsaw will be in place.

(PS: Realpra is wise.)

[muyuu]

Just think how different the outcome would be if there was a local Greek exchanger swapping cash for bitcoins instantly.

Maybe by the time Spain defaults, all the pieces of the Jigsaw will be in place.

(PS: Realpra is wise.)

I honestly think by the time Spain defaults if that happens, the Euro as we know it would be over already. Spain is not even next in line in term of public debt, not by a long shot.

By domino effect the next one would be Italy, heavily invested in Greece and in a critical situation already. At this point several German, French and Spanish banks are either piece-wise declared bad banks and closed down shortly after, or nationalised (they won't let Deutsche Bank go down). Euro is over already before Spain and France can default and bring Germany down. Extremely hard transition because capital would massively escape the eurozone and seek refuge in the yen, pound, dollar and obviously gold and silver. I honestly don't believe they will let this control tool die, it's their little IV Reich dream, on steroids. Never did they have so much power in Europe.

This would be havoc and I think they will try to kick the can down the road instead. Greece possibly out, but then shortly after massive QE issued and big shares of debt simply paid off by inflation, if not directly written off. Taxpayers and savers will be paying for this the most, one way or the other.

[oldDirty]

It's very simple; 3-4 EU Country's pays all in the "fund", and 18 only takes out the Share, how long can a system stand like this?

[Shadow383]

I'd love it if the Euro was scrapped and substituted with some form of honest money. Obviously this isn't going to happen any time soon because it would imply many banks going tits up, which they will try to avoid at any cost, at massive expense for their citizens.

It was a bad idea to begin with. The EEE was just fine, no need for the EU. Definitely not like this.

I think the question is how long they can continue to defy economic reality.
Ironically the best investment I've made all year will probably end up being a £150 bet I made in January that Greece would exit the euro this year.

The Athens composite index (ATHEX) is now just a few points from being down 90% since 2007.
Capital is leaving greek banks at a rate rumored to be up to 4 billion euros per week (>1% of GDP per week).
They have a youth unemployment rate now approaching 60%, general unemployment approaching 25% and no government for the next month at least.

So they're fucked. What about the others?

Well, the other Eurozone governments are exposed to greek government debt directly to the tune of about 200 billion.
Most of this one way or another ends up being guaranteed by the Bundesbank, who are now owed >600 billion euros by other central banks, who of course have it out on loan to all those failing Spanish and Greek banks, who are actually so bust that Reuters was reporting yesterday that the ECB had stopped supporting them (temporarily, until they realised that said banks would be hours from collapse if they didn't deny it) because their capital base was so depleted that they no longer had enough assets to cover their liabilities and were therefore trading whilst insolvent.
If the Euro fails, and it will, it's a matter of when, not if, then the Bundesbank will suddenly have a stock of loans that are no longer payable in euros, but payable in currencies almost certainly substantially weaker than Germany's own. If they make it out only suffering a 200 billion euro trading loss I'll be very impressed.

I'd bring up the situation in Spain, in Italy, and even further afield outside the EU where Japan has >$5 Trillion in debt that it has not a hope of ever being able to pay back, but frankly that's just way too depressing.~
It's going to be a very interesting couple of years.
Me? I'm just going to go out and spend some of my money, because frankly the way things are going we're heading for a collapse the like of which has never been seen before, and I doubt my paper money will be worth anything when we're done.

[JusticeForYou]

houses will soon be cheep in Greece?

The taxes on that property won't be.

[muyuu]

Greece will hardly ever be a cheap tourist destination. For that to happen all Europe needs to go tits up, and that wouldn't (won't) leave anyone unaffected.

[muyuu]

Greece will hardly ever be a cheap tourist destination. For that to happen all Europe needs to go tits up, and that wouldn't (won't) leave anyone unaffected.

no, but some people will still holiday.

Paying through their noses. There's always such people, but forget about bargains.

[muyuu]

Greece will hardly ever be a cheap tourist destination. For that to happen all Europe needs to go tits up, and that wouldn't (won't) leave anyone unaffected.

no, but some people will still holiday.

Paying through their noses. There's always such people, but forget about bargains.

the people who do not take holidays today, and rather take that money and bet that there would be a crash, will do very well if there is a crash. people like this will take holidays and will have much nicer holidays than if they took them today.



EDIT:

Think about it this way, for the people who took everything they had and bought gold at $350, silver at $4 and then sold over $1600/$35.. do you think they care if prices in fiat have doubled? 

nope...

Doesn't matter, a bad deal is a bad deal.

Obviously though, if what you want to see is Greece, there is no substitute for that. Right now it's a perfectly moment too, no doom and gloom.

But if you want a cheapo place to have a house near a nice beach, it's an awful choice. You are much better off where you are now if that's what you want. For sun & beach tourism it's a remarkably bad deal but many people seem to happily overpay, I'm not judging.

[muyuu]

i have a house next to the sea already. but only one, and none in europe

So you got a nice deal and you're in for a horrible one? go ahead then

[RodeoX]

It is really quite shocking. A disorderly exit from the Euro puts us all in a new world economy. If Greece goes, who will back up Spain's debt?...Germany? I don't think so.

[muyuu]

It is really quite shocking. A disorderly exit from the Euro puts us all in a new world economy. If Greece goes, who will back up Spain's debt?...Germany? I don't think so.

LOL. I love it how the press can control general sentiment about countries so much.

And who will back up Germany's debt? because it's much higher than Spain's in both relative and absolute terms. 

A few hedge funds have decided to bank on Spanish bonds and will try to raise them to the roof saying whatever it takes (Roubini has gone on record saying so, by the looks of it Krugman is also in someone's payroll). No conspiracy here, just business as usual. However it's quite remarkable how they'd spin reality in such coordinated and obviously manipulative fashion. They all were talking about Italy, then suddenly France (briefly), then back to Spain... I wonder how much they're making in these price swings they are so easily and timely provoking.

You can see it works because people would parrot the same names and countries in all sorts of forums. Whatever is the flavour of the week! it's pretty impressive.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/05/european-economy-guide

[Shadow383]

It is really quite shocking. A disorderly exit from the Euro puts us all in a new world economy. If Greece goes, who will back up Spain's debt?...Germany? I don't think so.

yeah, this makes me think Greece wont really go... or if they do, everyone will go

Honestly, how do you expect them to survive?
The idea that "it won't happen because the consequences would be horrible" doesn't really fly with me.
Yes. The consequences will be horrible, but greece has no way out of its current dialemma that doesn't involve default and a new currency.

Right now, capital flight from Greece is in excess of 1.5% of GDP per week (~4 billion euros/week) and its banks are so undercapitalised that the ECB has stopped lending to some of them because they are technically trading whilst insolvent.
Even with a competent government and good fiscal policies (which they don't and won't have) then they'd STILL need to default fully, impose capital restrictions and devalue.

Hell, you want a good indicator? Two of the largest bookies in the UK, William Hill and Ladbrokes, were offering odds on Greece leaving the euro by the end of the year.
After the massive increase in demand, even at 1.3/1, they were forced to pull it this week after concluding that the event was a near-certainty.


The real questions now are:
-What happens when Greece goes?
-What happens when Japan follows?

[oldDirty]

yeah, this makes me think Greece wont really go... or if they do, everyone will go

It was a big failure that Greece was invited to the Euro. I really have no Idea what goes round the Heads from the leading EU Politics inviting Countrys like Greece, Portugal and all these small countrys with very low economics. I am no nationalist, but i thing every Country gets back there own curency, so every Country is responsible for it's self.

[JusticeForYou]

Defaulting Sovereign Debt isn't new, it has been done several times in the past. What makes this new, is that Greece's default affects other Sovereign Debt.

This is why the first to go wins, the last loses. I'd expect Germany is aware of this and would take steps to exit before they get holding the bag for other's incompetence.

[muyuu]

yeah, this makes me think Greece wont really go... or if they do, everyone will go

It was a big failure that Greece was invited to the Euro. I really have no Idea what goes round the Heads from the leading EU Politics inviting Countrys like Greece, Portugal and all these small countrys with very low economics. I am no nationalist, but i thing every Country gets back there own curency, so every Country is responsible for it's self.

The case of Greece is a bit special because they actually falsified their data to enter the currency and they were the only country to do so. Germany and France also missed their targets but didn't lie about it.

However, being in the eurozone has actually had terrible long term repercussions for many countries. It has caused a housing bubble across countries from Ireland to Portugal to Spain to Italy, let alone Greece and Slovenia (both completely devastated medium term by it).

So it's not really just Greece leeching off Central Europe. They really are much worse off. But now it's too late and either way it's going to be very costly.

[RodeoX]

Perhaps Greece can start an account here and after a few posts start asking for bitcoin loans. 

[JusticeForYou]

Perhaps Greece can start an account here and after a few posts start asking for bitcoin loans. 

LOL, their bonds are what? 30% APR. They could fund another here to service that interest.

[muyuu]

The real questions now are:
-What happens when Greece goes?
-What happens when Japan follows?

Japan is different. Why? because they own their own debt. It's the only country where 99%+ of their bonds are kept within the country, by Japanese investors or banks. They won't speculate with their own debt either way, and they have the most solid currency in the world at the moment. They can just print it all off, they actually try to bring the yen down and they don't seem to be able to print it fast enough.

This is why they haven't gone tits up this far. They have undergone a long process of nationalising their debt. Soros tried to sink the yen and got burnt big time.

Asian nationalism (both Chinese and Japanese) seems to be paying off big time, they are relatively safe in all this mess. But they will both lose BIG when either the eurozone or the US go ka-boom, that's for sure.

[conspirosphere.tk]

Interesting theory from infowars:
Quote:
Now the trap is closing. The calls by the bought-and-paid-for media for a “real” super state are growing stronger. Alternatively, it is said there will be chaos, panic, bank-runs, devaluations, starvation and anarchy.
This is the dialectic as the elites wish to frame it. But it is a false one.
There will likely be chaos no matter what. It is the preferred tool. If Greece leaves the EU, then the resultant financial and banking ruin shall be used as justification for further centralizations of power within the EU and IMF.
If Greece remains in the Union, the chaos that results will also be used as a methodology of centralization. Either way, the powers-that-be plan to use chaos to consolidate more power for world government....

http://www.infowars.com/end-game-as-elite-trap-closes-economic-chaos-or-eu-super-state/

[JusticeForYou]

Interesting theory from infowars:
Quote:
Now the trap is closing. The calls by the bought-and-paid-for media for a “real” super state are growing stronger. Alternatively, it is said there will be chaos, panic, bank-runs, devaluations, starvation and anarchy.
This is the dialectic as the elites wish to frame it. But it is a false one.
There will likely be chaos no matter what. It is the preferred tool. If Greece leaves the EU, then the resultant financial and banking ruin shall be used as justification for further centralizations of power within the EU and IMF.
If Greece remains in the Union, the chaos that results will also be used as a methodology of centralization. Either way, the powers-that-be plan to use chaos to consolidate more power for world government....

http://www.infowars.com/end-game-as-elite-trap-closes-economic-chaos-or-eu-super-state/

This being applied to the U.S. would be interesting. All those Fly-Over states, the government will try to 'centralize' wouldn't go quietly.
Starvation? They have food. Actually, unless you have chosen to live in a bad place or city, most people could take a walk through the woods and/or fields and get their daily requirements of calories. Give them a gun (oh, they already have them), they'll get their meat too.

Come to think of it, 27 states are arguing against centralization now and that is just over money. If it comes to survival, DC doesn't stand a chance. We'll send them food to start taking laws off the books rather than putting more on.

[RodeoX]

Interesting theory from infowars:
Quote:
Now the trap is closing. The calls by the bought-and-paid-for media for a “real” super state are growing stronger. Alternatively, it is said there will be chaos, panic, bank-runs, devaluations, starvation and anarchy.
This is the dialectic as the elites wish to frame it. But it is a false one.
There will likely be chaos no matter what. It is the preferred tool. If Greece leaves the EU, then the resultant financial and banking ruin shall be used as justification for further centralizations of power within the EU and IMF.
If Greece remains in the Union, the chaos that results will also be used as a methodology of centralization. Either way, the powers-that-be plan to use chaos to consolidate more power for world government....

http://www.infowars.com/end-game-as-elite-trap-closes-economic-chaos-or-eu-super-state/

This being applied to the U.S. would be interesting. All those Fly-Over states, the government will try to 'centralize' wouldn't go quietly.
Starvation? They have food. Actually, unless you have chosen to live in a bad place or city, most people could take a walk through the woods and/or fields and get their daily requirements of calories. Give them a gun (oh, they already have them), they'll get their meat too.

Come to think of it, 27 states are arguing against centralization now and that is just over money. If it comes to survival, DC doesn't stand a chance. We'll send them food to start taking laws off the books rather than putting more on.

haha, no kidding. Whenever a financial expert talks about "the economy" they don't mean you and me. They are talking about their economy. If the banks collapse it will hurt them more than me. I taught wilderness skills for 12 years, it can't get bad enough to hurt me. Sure it would diminish all our lives in some ways, but overall my social status would be elevated. 
The bills have come due and I say bring the rain.

[JusticeForYou]

The bills have come due and I say bring the rain.

lol, A little thunder wouldn't bother me neither.

A Cumulonimbus cloud has been forming over the east and west coasts for awhile.

You and I know how good it smells after a good storm, others have forgot.

[Realpra]

(PS: Realpra is wise.)

Can't take all the credit, much in my post was from around the internet - just got sick of hearing about how we are all doomed if some idiot bankers go bankrupt.

LOL. I love it how the press can control general sentiment about countries so much.

Me too, notice how its always centered on Europe even if the US is quite messed up too?

Drives money away from the euro and into the dollar - keeping it from devaluing from all the FED printing.


I think a large amount of investors actually have very little idea what they are doing.


Meanwhile China is getting stuff DONE, with all the infrastructure and renewable energy they can't come out too bad.

[molecular]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

[molecular]

Given the scale of what is about to unfold on the international financial markets, I think we're about to get a field test of how good bitcoin is for people circumventing capital controls.
This is going to be very, very interesting lucrative.

fixed that for you

[muyuu]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

If they did that they'd be the richest nation in Europe by 2020.

[conspirosphere.tk]

Greeks are still in fantasyland and not wanting to get out:

THREE FANTASYLAND IDEAS
1. The euro is a good thing for Greece
2. It is possible for Greece to stay on the euro but default on debt
3. Greece can recover in the eurozone

Merkel is doing her best to convince Greeks that number 2 is not possible and she is correct on that score. She is also promoting the Fantasland positions numbers 1 and 3.

Mish, FRI, MAY 18, 2012
http://www.safehaven.com/article/25487/merkel-to-approach-greece-with-growth-proposals-while-asking-for-referendum-on-euro

[notme]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

If they did that they'd be the richest nation in Europe by 2020.

How will they stop the bankers from confiscating the gold.... when you go bankrupt your creditors get to split up all your assets.

[molecular]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

If they did that they'd be the richest nation in Europe by 2020.

How will they stop the bankers from confiscating the gold.... when you go bankrupt your creditors get to split up all your assets.

That's not necessarily true. You might get to keep a minimum for survival (300 tons of gold is not unreasonable, also: Bill Gates said civilized people don't want gold, so the bankers should be civilized).

Also: Russian military will protect their "fellow free market allies", threatening to nuke the City of London

[notme]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

If they did that they'd be the richest nation in Europe by 2020.

How will they stop the bankers from confiscating the gold.... when you go bankrupt your creditors get to split up all your assets.

That's not necessarily true. You might get to keep a minimum for survival (300 tons of gold is not unreasonable, also: Bill Gates said civilized people don't want gold, so the bankers should be civilized).

Also: Russian military will protect their "fellow free market allies", threatening to nuke the City of London

1. Who said bankers were civilized?
2. WWIII here we come.

[molecular]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

If they did that they'd be the richest nation in Europe by 2020.

How will they stop the bankers from confiscating the gold.... when you go bankrupt your creditors get to split up all your assets.

That's not necessarily true. You might get to keep a minimum for survival (300 tons of gold is not unreasonable, also: Bill Gates said civilized people don't want gold, so the bankers should be civilized).

Also: Russian military will protect their "fellow free market allies", threatening to nuke the City of London

1. Who said bankers were civilized?
2. WWIII here we come.

ok, damnit. let me rephrase:

They The whole world should do 1. (default) and then make their own currency let the markets decide what to use for money.

[Realpra]

Greece should:
1. Default on the loans they can't pay. Its just the ECB paying them right now anyway.
2. Now, they would no longer be able to loan a dime.

I'm not even sure about that. Free of debt economy being built with motivated population? Might be a good investment... get in early

They should do 1. and then make their own currency. I read they have some gold, just use that to back it and jump in the boat with russia, china,... (who will do the same at some point) and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

Yeah probably, I'm guessing a smaller amount though and not the first months/year.

Would be better for them if they didn't loan and fixed things instead.

[Rothgar]

and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

First?  Remember the pound, also called the pound sterling, as in silver.  The pound USED to be this sound money you speak of. 

[muyuu]

and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

First?  Remember the pound, also called the pound sterling, as in silver.  The pound USED to be this sound money you speak of. 

First to have it now.

Most European nations had sound money once upon a time, the Greeks already did even before Roman times.

[molecular]

and be the first of european nations to have sound money.

First?  Remember the pound, also called the pound sterling, as in silver.  The pound USED to be this sound money you speak of. 

First to have it now.

Most European nations had sound money once upon a time, the Greeks already did even before Roman times.

there has probably been use of sound money even before recording of history started, so yes: "be the first to go back to sound money".

[GideonGono]

Guys! We've derailed the thread. We are supposed to be discussing how we can get the Greeks to buy into Bitcoin.

Also, Argentina has also implemented capital controls. We need to take advantage of this golden opportunity! With $4bn a week leaving Greece, even a tiny percentage of that would be great for bitcoin. Not only in bringing more capital into our economy but also, if the media picks up the story that people are going to bitcoin as a 21st century capital control evasion method, this could be very big indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0B0TFFVbw&feature=g-all-u

(They are even using sniffer dogs to catch people smuggling dollars. I'd like to see them try sniffing bitcoins )

[GideonGono]

Lets get that Greek translation bounty going! Who is in? *Raises own hand*

[molecular]

Lets get that Greek translation bounty going! Who is in? *Raises own hand*

apparently multibits greek translation is 88% done: http://translate.multibit.org/project/multibit/el

[BrightAnarchist]

Given the scale of what is about to unfold on the international financial markets, I think we're about to get a field test of how good bitcoin is for people circumventing capital controls.
This is going to be very, very interesting.

+1

The is one of the largest benefits of Bitcoin: for surviving governmental SHTF episodes.

[jackmaninov]

I'll chip in 1 BTC to a greek translation bounty.

[GideonGono]

Lets get that Greek translation bounty going! Who is in? *Raises own hand*

apparently multibits greek translation is 88% done: http://translate.multibit.org/project/multibit/el

any idea if the main client is available in greek?

[notme]

Lets get that Greek translation bounty going! Who is in? *Raises own hand*

apparently multibits greek translation is 88% done: http://translate.multibit.org/project/multibit/el

any idea if the main client is available in greek?

Is this it?

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/locale/bitcoin_el_GR.ts

[notme]

Looks like there are a few missing... just fill in any of these:

Code:

<translation type="unfinished"/>

like this:

Code:

<translation>Δημιoύργησε νέα διεύθυνση</translation>

If you don't know how to use github, dump it in pastebin and I'll upload it to github and issue a pull request.

[Polvos]

If you are translating the bitcoin information to greek, start the spanish translation too because is the next country going into bankrupcy. Assets are leaving the country in a high speed because the government is planning to aprove a wealth tax again and some banks are being nationalized.

[Realpra]

Guys! We've derailed the thread. We are supposed to be discussing how we can get the Greeks to buy into Bitcoin.

Go to Greece and spent a week on the streets yelling about bitcoin/hand out some flyers.

Its how most grassroots and political parties do it - get the attention of a few hundred, then hope they tell 2 others each.

[GideonGono]

Guys! We've derailed the thread. We are supposed to be discussing how we can get the Greeks to buy into Bitcoin.

Go to Greece and spent a week on the streets yelling about bitcoin/hand out some flyers.

Its how most grassroots and political parties do it - get the attention of a few hundred, then hope they tell 2 others each.

Great idea. But I cannot go to Greece. I'm sure there is someone here who is in greece, we could make the fliers and get them to distribute them at the rallies/riots

[molecular]

Guys! We've derailed the thread. We are supposed to be discussing how we can get the Greeks to buy into Bitcoin.

Go to Greece and spent a week on the streets yelling about bitcoin/hand out some flyers.

Its how most grassroots and political parties do it - get the attention of a few hundred, then hope they tell 2 others each.

Great idea. But I cannot go to Greece. I'm sure there is someone here who is in greece, we could make the fliers and get them to distribute them at the rallies/riots

how about handing everyone casascius coins?

[conspirosphere.tk]

I think the way would be leading by examples instead than 'splaining what BTC are and are not.
Trying to launch some micro BTC startups there, even in the underground economy seems to me the way to go.
Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

[JusticeForYou]

I think the way would be leading by examples instead than 'splaining what BTC are and are not.
Trying to launch some micro BTC startups there, even in the underground economy seems to me the way to go.
Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

Considering what they are about to go through, the Greek Government might even make BTC the official currency.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the banks that have been 'cut off' from the ECB wouldn't mind processing tx to mtgox for a percentage.

[ribuck]

Considering what they are about to go through, the Greek Government might even make BTC the official currency.

No way. The Greek government is in a mess is because they won't/can't balance their budget (even within the 3% leeway allowed by the Euro rules). If Greece leaves the Euro, it will be to a currency of its own that it can inflate ad lib.

Bitcoin has nothing of value to offer to the Greek government. To the Greek people, on the other hand...

[JusticeForYou]

Considering what they are about to go through, the Greek Government might even make BTC the official currency.

No way. The Greek government is in a mess is because they won't/can't balance their budget (even within the 3% leeway allowed by the Euro rules). If Greece leaves the Euro, it will be to a currency of its own that it can inflate ad lib.

Bitcoin has nothing of value to offer to the Greek government. To the Greek people, on the other hand...

Yes, to the Greek People. Sorry for mistaking the Greek Government as being run by the 'People'. That was foolish of me.

[hazek]

Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

That's the only thing that has any chance of some traction since Bitcoin is so far out of their general population's world view making it extremely hard to accept as valid. But a path to avoid capital controls is surely going be attractive once their government starts limiting people's freedom with their money.

[muyuu]

Would Bitcoin withstand that a few million people started using it regularly? Not that I think it's feasible to achieve that kind of success short-term, but unless there has been some late breakthrough I'm not aware of, blockchain bloat would be terrible with that kind of activity.

[muyuu]

Would Bitcoin withstand that a few million people started using it regularly? Not that I think it's feasible to achieve that kind of success short-term, but unless there has been some late breakthrough I'm not aware of, blockchain bloat would be terrible with that kind of activity.

Should I create a gambling site inspired by Satoshi Dice so we can find out?

Would that generate activity in the ballpark of several million regular users making several daily transactions?

[Seal]

Guys! We've derailed the thread. We are supposed to be discussing how we can get the Greeks to buy into Bitcoin.

Back to the OP, I posted a suggestion for a Greek sub-forum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82734.0

Healthy discussions amongst the Greeks and the right promotional material translated by the forum users will help to promote the cause. I'd appreciate any +1's on the topic to get the forum admins to notice. For the record, theres nothing in it for me as I dont speak Greek.

[GideonGono]

Guys! We've derailed the thread. We are supposed to be discussing how we can get the Greeks to buy into Bitcoin.

Back to the OP, I posted a suggestion for a Greek sub-forum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82734.0

Healthy discussions amongst the Greeks and the right promotional material translated by the forum users will help to promote the cause. I'd appreciate any +1's on the topic to get the forum admins to notice. For the record, theres nothing in it for me as I dont speak Greek.

This is great. Exactly the kind of thing we need.

[GideonGono]

Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

That's the only thing that has any chance of some traction since Bitcoin is so far out of their general population's world view making it extremely hard to accept as valid. But a path to avoid capital controls is surely going be attractive once their government starts limiting people's freedom with their money.

Awesome! Now we are getting somewhere! How would you envision such a service working?

[caveden]

how about handing everyone casascius coins?

That's nice in some contexts (not only the one of this topic), but they're too expensive right now to be given away at large quantities... perhaps casacius should start doing some 100 and 50 mBTC coins (or lower, if viable)

[hazek]

Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

That's the only thing that has any chance of some traction since Bitcoin is so far out of their general population's world view making it extremely hard to accept as valid. But a path to avoid capital controls is surely going be attractive once their government starts limiting people's freedom with their money.

Awesome! Now we are getting somewhere! How would you envision such a service working?

No idea and I personally probably fear the monopoly on violence a bit too much in order to engage in breaking the capital control rules in a foreign country. But I imagine someone will want to take that risk and facilitate capital flow out of the country and instead of smuggling cash they can do it with bitcoins.

[conspirosphere.tk]

Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

That's the only thing that has any chance of some traction since Bitcoin is so far out of their general population's world view making it extremely hard to accept as valid. But a path to avoid capital controls is surely going be attractive once their government starts limiting people's freedom with their money.

Awesome! Now we are getting somewhere! How would you envision such a service working?

No idea and I personally probably fear the monopoly on violence a bit too much in order to engage in breaking the capital control rules in a foreign country. But I imagine someone will want to take that risk and facilitate capital flow out of the country and instead of smuggling cash they can do it with bitcoins.

S/t like that may be done in a legal way. In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros, and maybe sometimes offering some help to send them. This should still be legal (until they outlaw bitcoins).

Now, Greeks are exporting billions of euros and many of them find attractive to export capital undetected in order to not pay taxes on it; that's why they may like bitcoins. The only difficulty might be finding someone in Switzerland or wherever they want to export their money available to exchange their bitcoin for cash in person at a decent rate, assuming that they do not want use exchange agencies. I do not think that many of them would be ready to use confidently the OTC market (which is too mostly dependent on bank transactions).

Even if we may be a bit late for this, a second opportunity may likely come after the re-dracmatization, when much exported capitals will likely return, again ideally undetected, to take advantage of the huge devaluation. Then there would be quite some local demand to buy dracmas with BTC.

[hazek]

In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros,

Sure... but how would this seller get his € out of Greece? Is he Geek and willing to keep his money in Greece?

[conspirosphere.tk]

In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros,

Sure... but how would this seller get his € out of Greece? Is he Geek and willing to keep his money in Greece?

He would use the euro to buy more BTC to sell (and/or keep his stash secured or move it abroad like his clients), and so on and on. Just the how is debatable: even for him would be better to stay at large from banks as much as possible.

[muyuu]

In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros,

Sure... but how would this seller get his € out of Greece? Is he Geek and willing to keep his money in Greece?

They can do that no problem. They can transfer money anywhere in the eurozone... so far they haven't pulled off! They can deposit to Intersango or MtGox just as easily as you can.

[molecular]

how about handing everyone casascius coins?

That's nice in some contexts (not only the one of this topic), but they're too expensive right now to be given away at large quantities... perhaps casacius should start doing some 100 and 50 mBTC coins (or lower, if viable)

I've given lower-denomination physical bitcoin some thought a while back. Problem is of course the production cost. Best idea I was able to come up with back then: print tiny qr-code with privkey on a about 0.5 cm x 1.0 cm size paper, print address on other side and fold so that privkey is not visible, put everything into a drop of transparent casting resin which can be opened by hammer to redeem. Now against conterfeiting, I don't know, maybe include a hologram after all. Any ideas?

[molecular]

Maybe launching a service to facilitate capital flight?

That's the only thing that has any chance of some traction since Bitcoin is so far out of their general population's world view making it extremely hard to accept as valid. But a path to avoid capital controls is surely going be attractive once their government starts limiting people's freedom with their money.

Awesome! Now we are getting somewhere! How would you envision such a service working?

No idea and I personally probably fear the monopoly on violence a bit too much in order to engage in breaking the capital control rules in a foreign country. But I imagine someone will want to take that risk and facilitate capital flow out of the country and instead of smuggling cash they can do it with bitcoins.

S/t like that may be done in a legal way. In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros, and maybe sometimes offering some help to send them. This should still be legal (until they outlaw bitcoins).

Now, Greeks are exporting billions of euros and many of them find attractive to export capital undetected in order to not pay taxes on it; that's why they may like bitcoins. The only difficulty might be finding someone in Switzerland or wherever they want to export their money available to exchange their bitcoin for cash in person at a decent rate, assuming that they do not want use exchange agencies. I do not think that many of them would be ready to use confidently the OTC market (which is too mostly dependent on bank transactions).

Or, maybe they'll look at bitcoin and like it better for it's monetary properties than fiat and just KEEP THEM In that case all that's needed is some guy selling bitcoin for EUR in greece. This guy would face the same problem then, however, right? So I don't think this can work.

[molecular]

In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros,

Sure... but how would this seller get his € out of Greece? Is he Geek and willing to keep his money in Greece?

They can do that no problem. They can transfer money anywhere in the eurozone... so far they haven't pulled off! They can deposit to Intersango or MtGox just as easily as you can.

What kind of capital control is being implemented? If they can just transfer EUR to some bank in Poland (intersango), the how is capital flow controlled at all? Money just left country, right?

[muyuu]

In Greece you would have just to sell bitcoins for euros,

Sure... but how would this seller get his € out of Greece? Is he Geek and willing to keep his money in Greece?

They can do that no problem. They can transfer money anywhere in the eurozone... so far they haven't pulled off! They can deposit to Intersango or MtGox just as easily as you can.

What kind of capital control is being implemented? If they can just transfer EUR to some bank in Poland (intersango), the how is capital flow controlled at all? Money just left country, right?

Yep that's happening now. Greek capital is leaving the country in droves. So far there is no capital control over the usual limits to transfers and the scaremongering of having to declare it all. Greeks move a lot of money out of the bank system and they are not simply going to put it in a bank to transfer it to an exchange. That's a limitation there. But for smaller quantities there's certainly no problem.

Here in the UK I know people coming from Greece to buy (incredibly overpriced) property. Granted, a minority of Greeks can afford to buy property in London at current prices without any loans or mortgages (neither can I or most people living here). They know they're paying a high premium but they are willing to pay it to avoid a lock-in similar to Argentinian "corralito" from 2001. That's how bad it is.

[muyuu]

Not mine, from a comment in the Torygraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/9293270/Europes-Maquina-Infernal-has-crippled-Spain.html

--------
And yet this could all end so well.

Greece will exit the Euro - even the Eurocracy appears to have accepted this. It may happen in a matter of days now.

The Greek economy will contract sharply - but then it will start to rebound, as Greeks find they can no longer afford German washing machines, refrigerators or cars and look to buy local Greek products instead. Mothballed factories will be given a new coat of paint and re-start production. They will start hiring again.

Investors with an eye for a well-timed investment will start to take a punt on a Greek revival. Before long it all becomes self-reinforcing and the economy will start to float off the reef where it is currently grounded.

This will happen because it always does. Look at Argentina or Iceland.

It won't take long before voters in Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland, locked in the stranglehold of Germany's austerity blitz,  become envious at the optimism pouring out of Greece. The clamour for exit will become deafening and unstoppable.

The Euro will unravel, and with it the European Project - a wicked, undemocratic, crony capitalist domesday machine worse than anything Ayn Rand ever conjured up  - will disintegrate.

The collapse of the Euro is to be welcomed. Bring it on.

--------

[Boussac]

I suggest we start a bounty and commission a translation of the bitcoin client into the Greek language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc17uI2G2oc&feature=plcp

Just in case Greece opts out of the euro and decides to go with bitcoin, Paytunia is now translated in greek for android mobile phones