Blocks are still taking way too long.

[p2pbucks]

I hope bitcoin core dev could eliminate the risk of accepting zero confirmation( or greatly reduce ) which would solve most problem

[Dabs]

Don't forget about "transaction confidence". 10 seconds is usually more than enough wait for low value purchases.

I'm selling my car for 10 BTC, and I'm willing to wait only 60 seconds before I hand you the keys.

[phillipsjk]

With bitcoin not even having its first confirmation within 30 minutes, do you think the guy will let me walk away even if i show him the transaction screen on my phone?

In a word, yes.

Longer answer: I would expect the merchant to wait for the 0 confirmation transaction to show up on their screen, hopefully with an independent network connection.

Notably for food establishments, "dine and dash" is a problem regardless of the payment method.

I hope bitcoin core dev could eliminate the risk of accepting zero confirmation( or greatly reduce ) which would solve most problem

There is not much the software can do to reduce the risk of zero confirmation transactions (other than wait as dabs mentioned). The point of contention is how long it takes to get similar risk mitigation with competing technologies.

[Dabs]

Actually, I'm just going to check blockchain.info. If I see it there, I look at the transaction and see if you included a fee. Then I also look at that part that says "Estimated Confirmation Time" and check if it says "Very Soon (High Priority)"

[jonald_fyookball]

I hope bitcoin core dev could eliminate the risk of accepting zero confirmation( or greatly reduce ) which would solve most problem

but the risk is already very small

[Este Nuno]

I just don't see the problem here and why people seem to make such a big deal about it. Maybe I'm crazy.

If you are buying a coffee, the merchant can certainly take the risk of a double spend attempt. I mean... seriously, who is going to try to double spend a $2 item.

If you are buying something expensive, there is usually paperwork that needs to be filled out anyway, so you have plenty of time to get confirmations.

There are also several other ways Bitcoin can be used (perhaps without all of it's advantages) so that there is no risk of a zero confirmation double spend attempt.

If you are a regular customer of a business, you could purchase gift cards with Bitcoin and then use those.

You could also set up an account with the business where you deposit a certain amount of coins to an address controlled by the business. As you make purchases, the shop slowly drains your "account" of Bitcoins. Should you choose to quit shopping there forever, your remaining bitcoins will be refunded to you.

Banks could issue debit cards which work with the already existing infrastructure and you could fund those cards with Bitcoin instead of fiat.

Banks could issue credit cards which work with the already existing infrastructure and you could pay off your monthly balance with Bitcoin.

You could just provide the merchant with some ID. This is how merchants have accepted bank checks for years.

Finally, if you absolutely need every advantage of a pure Bitcoin transaction, yet you are dealing with a sizable amount and a merchant who requires confirmations, you should simply be patient and wait. Typically you won't be waiting long. This is one of the tradeoffs for making a pure Bitcoin transaction while getting all the other advantages of Bitcoin.

I just don't see many real life situations that would involve the large amounts of money required for the vendor to need several confirmations that would also for some odd reason need to happen immediately!

Mountains out of molehills...

The problem is that a lot of people were sold on Bitcoin being the future of consumer payments on a massive scale. Which as we all know simply isn't going to be the case(and that's fine). Just read reddit's r/bitcoin to see the masses suddenly realizing that Bitcoin itself isn't going to replace their credit card.

[Q7]

I just have one comment to make. "Simplicity" is still the keyword. If we start to make exceptions, setting criterias, started to make categories, fine with unnecessary waiting, doing one form of exchange to another to make it work, forcing oneself, taking unnecessary risk....... THEN by all means that is not 'Simplicity'

[Dabs]

If I buy coffee, what's the problem with waiting 10 seconds?

If I buy a car, what's the problem with waiting 1 minute?

If I buy a house, or some large piece of land, I think I can wait an hour.

[odolvlobo]

The problem is that a lot of people were sold on Bitcoin being the future of consumer payments on a massive scale. Which as we all know simply isn't going to be the case(and that's fine). Just read reddit's r/bitcoin to see the masses suddenly realizing that Bitcoin itself isn't going to replace their credit card.

If that is the case, then they are being misinformed. There is no reason why Bitcoin can't be the future of consumer payments, and there is no reason why it can't replace credit cards.

BTW, the confirmation time in a credit card transaction is 90 days (or longer). That's how long it takes for a merchant to know that he actually has the money.

It takes an average of 10 minutes for a Bitcoin confirmation, but a merchant doesn't have to wait for a confirmation, just like in a credit card transaction.

[Klestin]

The problem is that a lot of people were sold on Bitcoin being the future of consumer payments on a massive scale. Which as we all know simply isn't going to be the case(and that's fine). Just read reddit's r/bitcoin to see the masses suddenly realizing that Bitcoin itself isn't going to replace their credit card.

We all simply know that isn't going to be the case? How so?

Read up on current development, future development plans, and third party tools in development now. There's a vast difference between what Bitcoin can do at this moment and what it can do in the fullness of time (or even in the next three years).

Hell, the bulk of the worries continually shouted in threads like this (frequently as if the idea was brand new) are discussed in the freaking original white paper, along with potential solutions.

[tss]

bitcoin is not for your daily latte.  if its a large enough transaction that you need to wait for it to confirm, then the time is not significant.

[Este Nuno]

The problem is that a lot of people were sold on Bitcoin being the future of consumer payments on a massive scale. Which as we all know simply isn't going to be the case(and that's fine). Just read reddit's r/bitcoin to see the masses suddenly realizing that Bitcoin itself isn't going to replace their credit card.

If that is the case, then they are being misinformed. There is no reason why Bitcoin can't be the future of consumer payments, and there is no reason why it can't replace credit cards.

BTW, the confirmation time in a credit card transaction is 90 days (or longer). That's how long it takes for a merchant to know that he actually has the money.

It takes an average of 10 minutes for a Bitcoin confirmation, but a merchant doesn't have to wait for a confirmation, just like in a credit card transaction.

The problem is that a lot of people were sold on Bitcoin being the future of consumer payments on a massive scale. Which as we all know simply isn't going to be the case(and that's fine). Just read reddit's r/bitcoin to see the masses suddenly realizing that Bitcoin itself isn't going to replace their credit card.

We all simply know that isn't going to be the case? How so?

Read up on current development, future development plans, and third party tools in development now. There's a vast difference between what Bitcoin can do at this moment and what it can do in the fullness of time (or even in the next three years).

Hell, the bulk of the worries continually shouted in threads like this (frequently as if the idea was brand new) are discussed in the freaking original white paper, along with potential solutions.

People are building things now that will improve the consumer experience for Bitcoin. But for a consumer getting 2-5% cash back or rewards by using a credit card it's going to be hard for even the slickest of innovations to beat that. I haven't heard many people arguing this for a while. Even in the Rise and Rise of Bitcoin Erik Voorhees of all people says he doesn't expect mass adoption of Bitcoin in western countries with their modern banking systems.

Doesn't mean I don't think people can't build projects that make crypto easier to use for regular people so that they can use it as a daily use currency. I'm working on such a project myself at the moment in fact. But I don't expect to be able to sell Bitcoin to someone going shopping at the mall and getting cash back on their credit card. But crypto can be used in many ways, just because it can't win in every category doesn't mean that it can't gain more adoption in other areas over time.

[Nagle]

When we have a offchain payment system for small amounts, block times wouldn't matter.

With an offchain payment system for small amounts, Bitcoin doesn't matter.

[Bit_Happy]

Over 30 minutes for a single confirmation does not (and will not ever) work in the real world.
(Almost) Every time I start to believe that BTC is "going mainstream", I have a delay waiting for a 30+ minute block.... 

BS, its called variance. I have always got confirmed within 10min, some even in secs ..... What does that tell you?

Look at the avg block time, you've been this ignorant b4. Sell your coins and fck off?

Ridiculously rude people are another barrier to mainstream usage.
Why are you here, to make us all look bad?

[Eisenhower34]

Don't forget about "transaction confidence". 10 seconds is usually more than enough wait for low value purchases.

I'm selling my car for 10 BTC, and I'm willing to wait only 60 seconds before I hand you the keys.

It takes a lot more then 60 seconds from the time you pay for a car before the car is "ready" to be driven off the lot. For example once you pay for it, the dealer will have it cleaned an additional time, the salesman will go over the various features with you.

Also most dealerships accept payment by check and will not verify funds. They simply put a clause in the sales contract that the ownership does not actually change hands until they receive payment. If the TX does not confirm due to a double spend or otherwise then you would be driving around in a stolen car.

[Soros Shorts]

I just have one comment to make. "Simplicity" is still the keyword. If we start to make exceptions, setting criterias, started to make categories, fine with unnecessary waiting, doing one form of exchange to another to make it work, forcing oneself, taking unnecessary risk....... THEN by all means that is not 'Simplicity'

I you get paid in PayPal, it could be reversed. If you get paid in cash, the bills could be fake. If you get paid by credit card, the buyer could reverse the charges, or the card could be stolen and you (the merchant) would have to absorb the loss. How is the consideration of these risks simple whereas having to decide whether to wait 10 seconds or 60 seconds is not? I mean if someone gives you $5000 in cash don't you first have to count the bills and verify that they are not fakes? That should take at least 60 seconds, unless you have a currency counter plugged in and ready to go.

Your argument is mostly bogus.

[btc-facebook]

I just have one comment to make. "Simplicity" is still the keyword. If we start to make exceptions, setting criterias, started to make categories, fine with unnecessary waiting, doing one form of exchange to another to make it work, forcing oneself, taking unnecessary risk....... THEN by all means that is not 'Simplicity'

I you get paid in PayPal, it could be reversed. If you get paid in cash, the bills could be fake. If you get paid by credit card, the buyer could reverse the charges, or the card could be stolen and you (the merchant) would have to absorb the loss. How is the consideration of these risks simple whereas having to decide whether to wait 10 seconds or 60 seconds is not? I mean if someone gives you $5000 in cash don't you first have to count the bills and verify that they are not fakes? That should take at least 60 seconds, unless you have a currency counter plugged in and ready to go.

Your argument is mostly bogus.

The argument is only valid for very large transactions when you do not trust the counter party you are dealing with. These types of large transactions generally take a very long time to complete anyway so waiting 30 minutes or an hour should not be a big deal. Not only that but it is generally a bad idea to do business with someone that you distrust.

Your alternatives would be to do the transaction with an intermediary company that you do trust (for example a title company for the purchase of real estate). This however still takes a very long time to complete and would end up costing you additional money from having to pay the fee to the intermediary 

[funtotry]

I just have one comment to make. "Simplicity" is still the keyword. If we start to make exceptions, setting criterias, started to make categories, fine with unnecessary waiting, doing one form of exchange to another to make it work, forcing oneself, taking unnecessary risk....... THEN by all means that is not 'Simplicity'

I you get paid in PayPal, it could be reversed. If you get paid in cash, the bills could be fake. If you get paid by credit card, the buyer could reverse the charges, or the card could be stolen and you (the merchant) would have to absorb the loss. How is the consideration of these risks simple whereas having to decide whether to wait 10 seconds or 60 seconds is not? I mean if someone gives you $5000 in cash don't you first have to count the bills and verify that they are not fakes? That should take at least 60 seconds, unless you have a currency counter plugged in and ready to go.

Your argument is mostly bogus.

THIS!

Bitcoin is by far the fastest payment method when comparing it to credit cards and checks. It can take a bank several days for a bank to even give you credit for a check and the funds from a check can be reversed after several weeks/months (depending on the reason). A credit card transaction will give the merchant somewhat more confidence that a transaction will go through however after several months will the transaction no longer be able to be reversed

[Bit_Happy]

I just have one comment to make. "Simplicity" is still the keyword. If we start to make exceptions, setting criterias, started to make categories, fine with unnecessary waiting, doing one form of exchange to another to make it work, forcing oneself, taking unnecessary risk....... THEN by all means that is not 'Simplicity'

I you get paid in PayPal, it could be reversed. If you get paid in cash, the bills could be fake. If you get paid by credit card, the buyer could reverse the charges, or the card could be stolen and you (the merchant) would have to absorb the loss. How is the consideration of these risks simple whereas having to decide whether to wait 10 seconds or 60 seconds is not? I mean if someone gives you $5000 in cash don't you first have to count the bills and verify that they are not fakes? That should take at least 60 seconds, unless you have a currency counter plugged in and ready to go.

Your argument is mostly bogus.

THIS!

Bitcoin is by far the fastest payment method when comparing it to credit cards and checks. It can take a bank several days for a bank to even give you credit for a check and the funds from a check can be reversed after several weeks/months (depending on the reason). A credit card transaction will give the merchant somewhat more confidence that a transaction will go through however after several months will the transaction no longer be able to be reversed

Yes, the 'final status' is much faster with BTC, but the all-important 'first result' is often waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy
ttooooooooooooooooooo  slow.
I tend to be more confident and optimistic about BTC when I am not actually using it much.  (sorry, but that is the truth)

[keber]

this is a serious problem,But I believe that the BTC team will solve it in near future!