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Author Topic: Need 1000 BTC. 100% guarantee for lender  (Read 5164 times)
ShadowAlexey
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May 18, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
 #21

Well, i dont like gambling)
But currently i`m interested in small(about 50 btc) loans for a month with 25% MRP
300% a year|50BTC|1 Month

So I dont think that you will be interested in me). But pls reply about all conditions of such loan.

I'm looking for something like

<10%| x 000 BTC | >= 6 months
First of all, write strictly all conditions. And your topic sound disturbing in case of BTC cost. Like you know or control something,that we dont). I just cant get, is it in good way(price up) or in bad way(price down).
Plus i doubt that some one will be interested, because this is really gambling, for BTC your interest is too low and to long term, because price of BTC might change dramatically over time.

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Andrew Vorobyov
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May 18, 2012, 03:43:17 PM
 #22

First of all, write strictly all conditions. And your topic sound disturbing in case of BTC cost. Like you know or control something,that we dont). I just cant get, is it in good way(price up) or in bad way(price down).

Look, I understand when you read this and don't have financial knowledge it's kind of strange..

Of course I will need some guarantees from you that your BTC will stay intact during loan time...
Of course I will need to specify what "price" is when contract is over... I think something of average USD price among 3 top exchanges for free currencies (USD, EUR, GBP)

When we have multi signature transactions everything will be much easier.

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May 18, 2012, 03:49:48 PM
 #23

Because this is really gambling

If you have tons of BTC that you plan to use in 5 years, why don't you get some % meanwhile...

+ you must understand global effect of such transactions on Bitcoin economy... in short - it will drive BTC price up...

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May 18, 2012, 03:55:14 PM
 #24

Because this is really gambling

If you have tons of BTC that you plan to use in 5 years, why don't you get some % meanwhile...

+ you must understand global effect of such transactions on Bitcoin economy... in short - it will drive BTC price up...
Thats why I cant get is it good or bad)
But any way i`m not the person you are interested in, so wish you good luck.

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organofcorti
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May 18, 2012, 03:56:39 PM
 #25

He's essentially offering a CFD. It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

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Andrew Vorobyov
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May 18, 2012, 04:03:15 PM
 #26

He's essentially offering a CDF. It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

CFD... yes.. you are correct

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May 18, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
 #27

He's essentially offering a CDF. It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

CFD... yes.. you are correct

Ooops. Stats background showing.

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May 18, 2012, 04:18:13 PM
 #28

Thats why I cant get is it good or bad)

It's good. Think of it like insurance, which is also a kind of gambling.

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Andrew Vorobyov
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May 18, 2012, 04:27:12 PM
 #29

He's essentially offering a CFD. It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

It's not kind of clean CFD because BTC is never converted into USD.
I can not take long position

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May 18, 2012, 07:09:04 PM
 #30

He's essentially offering a CFD. It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

It's not kind of clean CFD because BTC is never converted into USD.
I can not take long position

I was thinking it looked like that was a request for someone to write (sell) a BTC PUT option (European style):
 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Put_option

The variation though is that instead of exercising the option at the end you instead settle with the PUT writer for the difference between the strike price and spot price at expiration.

Using your example, the PUT option you are looking to buy would look like this:

Contact (Asset): 1 BTC
Quantity: 1,000 contracts (of size 1 BTC per contact)
Expiration: 6 months,
Strike price: $5
Premium: .025 BTC (per contract)

You are describing the need for a guarantee fro the PUT writer that the "BTCs will stay intact".  Even with 2 of 3 (M of N), that is putting the PUT writer's bitcoins in escrow under control of a third party.

What happens though if the price drops more than 50%?   So let's say the exchange rate ends up $2.25.  Thus the settlement is ($5,000 - $2,250) / ($2.25 BTC/USD) = 1,222.22 BC.   The call writer owes you 1,222 BTC but there are only 1,000 BTC escrowed.

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May 18, 2012, 07:25:50 PM
 #31

He's essentially offering a CFD. It's a valid derivative, and only gambling insofar as much investing on exchanges is gambling.

It's not kind of clean CFD because BTC is never converted into USD.
I can not take long position

I was thinking it looked like that was a request for someone to write (sell) a BTC PUT option (European style):
 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Put_option

The variation though is that instead of exercising the option at the end you instead settle with the PUT writer for the difference between the strike price and spot price at expiration.

Using your example, the PUT option you are looking to buy would look like this:

Contact (Asset): 1 BTC
Quantity: 1,000 contracts (of size 1 BTC per contact)
Expiration: 6 months,
Strike price: $5
Premium: .025 BTC (per contract)

You are describing the need for a guarantee fro the PUT writer that the "BTCs will stay intact".  Even with 2 of 3 (M of N), that is putting the PUT writer's bitcoins in escrow under control of a third party.

What happens though if the price drops more than 50%?   So let's say the exchange rate ends up $2.25.  Thus the settlement is ($5,000 - $2,250) / ($2.25 BTC/USD) = 1,222.22 BC.   The call writer owes you 1,222 BTC but there are only 1,000 BTC escrowed.


I thought about it too... this is trade off for not having centralized exchange and using only multi signature...


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May 18, 2012, 07:30:14 PM
 #32

I would never take this deal. I stand to lose the full 1k BTC (and actually even more because it will approach infinity) and only stand to gain 2.5%. If I am that sure Bitcoin will rise in value I'll buy them leveraged ...

I will offer this deal as well btw. I think Bitcoin is more likely to rise than fall but for a 2.5% premium and an infinite amount of gain I'll take the negative bet as well. I only have to be right a really low amount of the time.

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May 18, 2012, 07:33:35 PM
 #33

I would never take this deal. I stand to lose the full 1k BTC (and actually even more because it will approach infinity) and only stand to gain 2.5%. If I am that sure Bitcoin will rise in value I'll buy them leveraged ...

Ok, let's me ask you, will you lend your BTC to me for 10% per year? Now it sounds nice... is not it? But it is actually the same

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May 18, 2012, 07:34:02 PM
 #34

I suggest you to go to the gambling section, because it`s actually is.
And yeah, your rates should be like pirates one)

I give you possibility for 100% secure loan... what else do you want?

See you had me until the '100%' secure loan part.

Who is the escrow? That is the most important part of this equation.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
Andrew Vorobyov
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May 18, 2012, 07:35:10 PM
 #35

I suggest you to go to the gambling section, because it`s actually is.
And yeah, your rates should be like pirates one)

I give you possibility for 100% secure loan... what else do you want?

See you had me until the '100%' secure loan part.

Who is the escrow? That is the most important part of this equation.

Multi signature between me, you and Gavin Andersen. Is it ok?

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May 18, 2012, 07:36:59 PM
 #36

I suggest you to go to the gambling section, because it`s actually is.
And yeah, your rates should be like pirates one)

I give you possibility for 100% secure loan... what else do you want?

See you had me until the '100%' secure loan part.

Who is the escrow? That is the most important part of this equation.

Multi signature between me, you and Gavin Andersen. Is it ok?

Sure, Gavin loans you the 1000 BTC, I'll escrow it, and deliver to you if needed.

I charge 1% as an escrow fee. Smiley

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
Andrew Vorobyov
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May 18, 2012, 07:39:24 PM
 #37

No? I get 7% a week.

If you give me 4% per week I will lend you 500 BTC... Do you want?


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May 18, 2012, 07:41:06 PM
 #38

No? I get 7% a week.

If you give me 4% per week I will lend you 500 BTC... Do you want?



Oh now you did it. They'll be coming out in droves for that one.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
Andrew Vorobyov
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May 18, 2012, 07:41:16 PM
 #39

Ok I can see some heat around this... I think I will build the site for this - where people buy/sell loans

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May 18, 2012, 07:53:44 PM
 #40

Hi Andrew,

as was written above, you are looking for a put option on BTC/fiat rate.

I was in need of a similar instrument to insure BTC fiat equivalent for a given time (i.e. the BTC will buy me at least the same in the fiat world in two months as they buy me today), see the related thread.

I suggest you to ask user brendio directly, he made me a very fair offer for that. It turned out I didn't need the insurance since the final transaction is to be carried out in fiat anyhow. Therefore I'm not advocating for him based on experience - just saying that his offer was very good.

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