Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 03:02:58 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Need 1000 BTC. 100% guarantee for lender  (Read 5174 times)
Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 18, 2012, 11:08:32 PM
 #81

I don't get it...OBVIOUSLY the price is going to increase with block reward halving.
This is all win for you (10 BTC today) and NO gain for the other guy.
Like I said, you are trying to prove how smart you are, that is all. It's a complete WASTE of 10 BTC for the other party involved.

Now I know why you have so much ignores Smiley

1481382178
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481382178

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481382178
Reply with quote  #2

1481382178
Report to moderator
1481382178
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481382178

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481382178
Reply with quote  #2

1481382178
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
bitlane
Internet detective
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 462


I heart thebaron


View Profile
May 19, 2012, 06:05:39 AM
 #82

I don't get it...OBVIOUSLY the price is going to increase with block reward halving.
This is all win for you (10 BTC today) and NO gain for the other guy.
Like I said, you are trying to prove how smart you are, that is all. It's a complete WASTE of 10 BTC for the other party involved.

Now I know why you have so much ignores Smiley

Exactly and I welcome MORE Ignores if the opportunity arises.

Face it, you wouldn't be offering to do this....this 'favor' for someone if you didn't already know that you are getting the better end of the deal while masking the rest in bullshit....and trying to make it look 'clever'.

Good luck with your 'money making' schemes.

Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 19, 2012, 07:26:26 AM
 #83

My other method of locking the BTC into an address and a penalty to be paid if moved, is like a CD except I could only use the CD value to leverage and not spend (however in that case, I would pay the 10 btc at the end, not up front).

In either case, I need to have some value to the 100 BTC.

I have doubts you will achieve this...

For example, Gavin accepts to be escrow... I transfer him money and this money he must return one year from now...

I don't know what "leverage" is for you but I doubt it can be applied if he will have the slightest doubt about this money not being returned.

imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
May 19, 2012, 01:08:32 PM
 #84

My other method of locking the BTC into an address and a penalty to be paid if moved, is like a CD except I could only use the CD value to leverage and not spend (however in that case, I would pay the 10 btc at the end, not up front).

In either case, I need to have some value to the 100 BTC.

I have doubts you will achieve this...

For example, Gavin accepts to be escrow... I transfer him money and this money he must return one year from now...

I don't know what "leverage" is for you but I doubt it can be applied if he will have the slightest doubt about this money not being returned.

And why is Gavin going to want to mess with this?  I'm sure he has more pressing things to do with his time and resources.

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
brendio
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


Firstbits: 1Brendio


View Profile
May 19, 2012, 02:00:04 PM
 #85

I'll toss my hat in the ring to be the escrow of a multisig transaction. If I understand them correctly, if after the term is complete, you both agree on where the funds should go, you can both sign the transaction and the escrow doesn't need to do a thing. Otherwise the escrow decides for one of the parties and signs their transaction. There is no way the escrow can run off with the funds without colluding with one of the parties.

Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 19, 2012, 02:09:44 PM
 #86

I'll toss my hat in the ring to be the escrow of a multisig transaction. If I understand them correctly, if after the term is complete, you both agree on where the funds should go, you can both sign the transaction and the escrow doesn't need to do a thing. Otherwise the escrow decides for one of the parties and signs their transaction. There is no way the escrow can run off with the funds without colluding with one of the parties.

Ok, I agree that brendio will be co-signatory for 2-of-3 transaction... BTC_Bear, what about you?

Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 19, 2012, 02:16:17 PM
 #87

I need to try doing multi signature transaction ... it's still beta version

BTC_Bear
B4 Foundation
VIP
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


Best Offense is a Good Defense


View Profile WWW
May 19, 2012, 03:32:26 PM
 #88

My other method of locking the BTC into an address and a penalty to be paid if moved, is like a CD except I could only use the CD value to leverage and not spend (however in that case, I would pay the 10 btc at the end, not up front).

In either case, I need to have some value to the 100 BTC.

I have doubts you will achieve this...

For example, Gavin accepts to be escrow... I transfer him money and this money he must return one year from now...

I don't know what "leverage" is for you but I doubt it can be applied if he will have the slightest doubt about this money not being returned.

Well the 'Leverage' is actually against you. Under the terms, of a locked in 100 BTC to an address that doesn't move and to an 'accepted' escrow, lets look at the last few days. BTC went up 10%, since I won't pay the 10 in this scenario until the end of contract. It would be wise for you to come to an agreement to take back the 100 BTC to take the 10% profit, pay me the 2 BTC penalty, and still profit 8%.
Another method of using the 'CD' is I have a savings put a side in cold storage. I could keep that at the same level, take out 100 BTC, invest 100 BTC, etc... BUT the key to this method is that the BTC stays in an address in the blockchain and doesn't move so it can be referenced. If it moves, you pay a penalty (2 BTC) for early withdrawal. And I pay the 10 BTC at the end not up front.
Rather than make this foolish gamble.

The escrow really has the power here. Without assurances, he would just deposit with another and collect interest. Bredio is himself a lender, he would make interest. If he agrees that the interest he earns from 'holding' the BTC will go to me, then I will do the same as with Hash King.

Or you could just trust me, give me 90 BTC, and I'll pay you back 110 BTC in a year minus any negative difference.

But what I really want to show for anyone that takes you up on this, it that the money being held in escrow 'for a year' will probably be used to make money by whomever holds it and that needs to be added into your calculations.

Not to mention, Escrows usually deal in fairly short term deals, having them pay attention for a year is asking a little from them. They should charge a fee.

Multi-sigs have not been fully worked out and into the 'official' client, there would be a risk, possibly more to the escrow.

Or another way of stating your proposal: Just give me 90 BTC ( take the 10 BTC upfront ) and at the end of a 'YEAR', I'll give you 110 BTC minus any negative difference. I'll make any interest off of the amount, plus if at the end I'll get any negative difference to boost my interest earnings to date.


You seem to be trying to trick(maybe not intentionally) people with a Contract for Difference. There is nothing wrong with a Contract for Difference and you trying to use one, just let everybody know 'all' that will probably be done with the BTC.

May I suggest you just skip the 100 BTC escrow and just ask for an agreement and collect the 10 BTC upfront. Why make a CFD harder than it needs to be. The key would be to build up enough trust and reputation so that people will believe you will follow through on a contract and if you don't you have something to loose (i.e. Trust and Reputation )

Oh, because the idea here is to collect the difference in the value of BTC under a CFD, you could just deal in the traditional fiat and avoid the intermediary security. It would save some effort and expense. e.g. ( $50 upfront, $500 to pay the negative difference at the end of a year )
This method has merit to avoid any mention of BTC in transfers and their underlying reasons for the transfer. i.e. No need to mention Bitcoin in PP transfers, dwolla, etc....


BTW: Why not ask for 2000 Escrowed for the year? That way the Escrow can open a Pirate account and get 7%/week. After he gets his initial payment to you plus a little extra he can re-secure the funds and smile for the 'YEAR'.


Something tells me you know this already though.

FRB is alive an well in Bitcoins although this time it is unregulated and free market driven.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 19, 2012, 04:59:53 PM
 #89

wait wait wait.... too many letters.... can you put YOUR terms in compact contract-like form and I will evaluate it.

PS. Kudos goes to piuk, as he can arrange multi signature transactions soon inside https://blockchain.info/wallet

BTC_Bear
B4 Foundation
VIP
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


Best Offense is a Good Defense


View Profile WWW
May 19, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
 #90

wait wait wait.... you writing so much letters.... can you put YOUR terms in compact contract-like form and I will evaluate it.

PS. Kudos goes to piuk, as he can arrange multi signature transactions soon inside https://blockchain.info/wallet

Almost all of my proposals will include me getting the interest off of the 100 BTC for the year from the 'accepted' escrow. The others would introduce a shared risk between us that brings it closer to a 50/50 bet. As in, I would structure the 100 BTC to be escrowed so it couldn't earn any interest from the escrow agent. I would pay you the 10 BTC upfront, BUT an early withdrawal would require you to pay a 12 BTC penalty OR I'll pay you 10 BTC at the end and an early withdrawal will cost you 2 BTC. This structure puts a lot of work on the Escrow agent for a 'Year'. If he can't use the BTC to earn something he would want to have a fee, I would assume, the fee would be for you to pay.

This is a lot of work for an all involved. It would be easier if you built up enough trust and reputation to just do the deal without escrow.

I'm leery of Multi-Sig transactions. I understand why they were introduced but the unintended consequences will, imo, out weigh the benefits. BTC will be held ransom, it will increase the attrition rate of BTC, and it introduces a level of complexity that many won't want to deal with. It is hard enough to get people to understand bitcoins without adding a "but, if, and when" to a transaction.

A little calculations of a conservative nature:

      Escrowed:         100 BTC
%/year at 2%:         104 BTC
# Wks til B/E:          5 Weeks to get back my 10 BTC

So after 5 Weeks of me earning interest, I wouldn't really care what happens everything else is icing.

Escrowed:  100 BTC (Structured so No Interest can be earned)
       PV $: 5 USD (example)
       FV $: 6 USD (20 % increase in the value of 100 BTC being held in escrow)
  Penalty:  2 BTC (It would behoove you to agree to break the deal and cash out the 100 BTC)
       FV$: 4 USD ( Hurting you as to the contract, but time is on my side )

Really as structured, the only way that is a possible benefit for you is BTC to decrease but with in the PV$ of the 10 BTC or less. Of course, you could not want to cancel the deal on an increase and that would hurt both of us (but you more).

BUT as far as me giving you 10 BTC and crossing my fingers for a "YEAR", no thanks...

CDF's do have a place in BTC though, so the attempted use of them is interesting. The pricing of them will have to be closely calculated.




Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 19, 2012, 06:53:13 PM
 #91

BTC_Bear, I'm really lost with what you trying to convey here...

BUT as far as me giving you 10 BTC and crossing my fingers for a "YEAR", no thanks...

As I can see, you are not interested in this deal so let's stay friends....

If you have other offer, please let me know, BUT make it in plain English without any abbreviations, because I don't know all of them

imsaguy
General failure and former
VIP
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 574

Don't send me a pm unless you gpg encrypt it.


View Profile WWW
May 19, 2012, 07:26:33 PM
 #92

PV = Present Value
FV = Future Value
B/E = Break Even
USD = US Dollar
BTC = Bitcoin

US = United States

Coming Soon!™ © imsaguy 2011-2013, All rights reserved.

EIEIO:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60117.0

Shades Minoco Collection Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65989
Payment Address: http://btc.to/5r6
dinox
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
May 25, 2012, 06:11:25 PM
 #93

OK.

If btc price goes down we get 1025 btc back and you get some from value difference.

If btc price goes up we get 1025 btc bad and you have to pay some due to value difference.

How in earth are you going to earn anything if we hold btc in escrow?


Edit: Ah, you are not asking for a loan, you are asking for a CFD. Forget my questions Smiley

Edit2: I still don't get it. Since first post says 100% guaranteed, we get 1025 btc back no matter what happens?

blockchain.info/fb/1dinox - 1Dinox3mFw8yykpAZXFGEKeH4VX1Mzbcxe
Active trader on #bitcoin-otc - See here - Proof that my nick is dinox here
ShadowAlexey
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 967



View Profile
May 25, 2012, 09:43:11 PM
 #94

OK.

If btc price goes down we get 1025 btc back and you get some from value difference.

If btc price goes up we get 1025 btc bad and you have to pay some due to value difference.

How in earth are you going to earn anything if we hold btc in escrow?


Edit: Ah, you are not asking for a loan, you are asking for a CFD. Forget my questions Smiley

Edit2: I still don't get it. Since first post says 100% guaranteed, we get 1025 btc back no matter what happens?
Nope, only if price of btc goes up, if down you will own him some.

NVCBank. BTC/LTC/NVC accepted.
My Bitmessage address: BM-Bc9dpmehK1ihtgHgXKVypTsDwmL4czMx .
฿: 1ShadowAM654zohrsjeso5pf9Sr4x4uYd Ł: LShadowAUpAy4r3yb2skZDe4vWFrLMNGtT ₪: 4ShadowA3DqkGv5zjLukcm88wSzvhbatsk
Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 25, 2012, 09:44:01 PM
 #95

Edit2: I still don't get it. Since first post says 100% guaranteed, we get 1025 btc back no matter what happens?

Another side will agree having 1000 BTC in x month from now...

( (1000BTC now) USD - ( 1000 BTC in x month from now) USD) / ( BTC price in future)


Andrew Vorobyov
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 565



View Profile
May 25, 2012, 09:45:59 PM
 #96

Theymos kindly agreed. Now I need to find counterparty

Code:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I own this Bitcoin public key and will use it for arbitrating Andrew Vorobyov's disputes.

02b409262853965f40896e0718277ed4cc2b902318f4aa6edfeb7f6a10d6d79243
(1LdCBDfz6jm1pVSjagB8CtM2Cceey2zcru)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iF4EAREIAAYFAk+/FrIACgkQxlVWk9q1kefsYAD/XLfeZGq59MrddCfuGdnWjn0V
uvPKIAZq9MiyDnN54+oA/iJPyi+oQoHzpTn6/s7sYH3lDJB6ttbNQWdqGr1vRnSW
=vP4J
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




dinox
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
May 27, 2012, 02:10:09 PM
 #97

This is then equivalent to a futures contract, right? Parties agree at making a transaction in 6 months at 5.11usd/btc.

25 btc is way too low, good luck finding your counterpart.

blockchain.info/fb/1dinox - 1Dinox3mFw8yykpAZXFGEKeH4VX1Mzbcxe
Active trader on #bitcoin-otc - See here - Proof that my nick is dinox here
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!