Child Kidnappings by the Western-European States

[Naine]

A thought about CPS in the Southern Europe. I don't see many (any) complaints about it. Having lived in Spain and travelled around Italy, I can say that family structure and  bonds there is very close to those of Russians and Eastern Europeans. A Spanish family as a whole would fight tooth and nail if a child is even slightly inconvenienced, independent of how distant a relative that child is.

I wonder if it's only my impression or if it is actually better to move South to avoid CPS harassment that surfaces in Scandinavia, Finland, GB, Holland, Germany, Switzerland..?

I think that Germany has also problems. The Scandinavia, the Netherlands and the Britain have problems, without doubts.

66 Czechs children - in the UK
http://www.tyden.cz/rubriky/domaci/cechum-berou-v-cizine-deti-kauzu-cesky-v-norsku-resi-evropa_290513.html#.VN5WCqNwZgY

a child from Slovakia plaid with dolls in school, CPS we called
an another mother was told that if she moves back to Slovakia, she will keep one child
Ivana Boorova case, you are in hospital, do you not want to see your child - when her husband came with the child, the child was taken by CPS. The mother was told that she will go to prison for 3 years, if she goes public.
http://www.invarena.cz/?p=9433

the children were to slim
http://sonasvobodova.blog.idnes.cz/c/424560/Hubenym-Slovakum-vzala-socialka-v-Britanii-jejich-hubene-deti.html

The friend of mine had problems in the Netherlands, she got her child back, but she is not very young, she is very intelligent and she has very well paid job.
I do not know, what caused her problem. The father of the chid?

CPS had problem that:
a) she works (she has a part time job)
b) the child is in a wrong school (not a Dutch school, but neither parent is a Dutch, so they were discriminated against in school)
c) I love this one - the mother has too many books.

If you want Czech numbers (2011)
7000 children above 3 years in institutional care (1/3 youth detention centres)
3000 children younger that 3 years in care - from them (during year 2011) - 11 adopted against parents wishes.
10000 in foster care or guardianship - 2/3 of guardians own family.

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[Nemo1024]

a Czech joke
http://g.cz/adoptuj-si-sveho-nora
Adopt your Norwegian child.
During school holidays are many Norwegian teenagers coming to Prague to get drunk, it means that their biological parents do something wrong.
So we propose:
a) to hunt them down
b) get them to a Czech family for re-education, they can see their parents twice a year, the only allowed language will be Czech
c) everybody(CPS, parents, the Norwegian government) must understand that it is in the interest of the children, they must be protected from biological parents, they must be given to families with positive attitude to alcohol and learn that it is better to drink a small amount every day than to drink the same amount of alcohol  once a week.

That joke should really get implemented by Czech CPS. And it would probably be beneficial for the Norwegian teens. Anyone who's seen them wild on Minorca can attest to it. 

Naine, thank you for the view of the political side from the Czech perspective. I really appreciate it.

CPS had problem that:
a) she works (she has a part time job)
b) the child is in a wrong school (not a Dutch school, but neither parent is a Dutch, so they were discriminated against in school)
c) I love this one - the mother has too many books.

It's like that reason given by Norwegian CPS, when mother was deemed to be too smart:

http://www.mhskanland.net/page10/page122/page122.html

(46)  Because of her good intellectual functioning and verbal skills we are of the opinion that the mother has been judged to function better than she really does.

[Naine]

Some numbers from the council of Europe.
http://website-pace.net/documents/10643/1127812/EDOC_Social+services+in+Europe.pdf/dc06054e-2051-49f5-bfbd-31c9c0144a32

of of the Uk cases
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516270/Please-dont-baby-Agony-mother-baby-girl-adoption-secret-court-judge-forced-caesarean.html

[BitMos]

it's impressive what the open internet can do to freedom of expression and the issues that can be discuss freely by anyone wishing to take part in them, however you have to understand and accept that the same people that do that to children have all interest in you not having those discussion, exposing the wideness of the scandals. I think you should take the opportunity to use decentralized system of communication as back up, the "controllers" seem to be moving to close such open places with their new "regulations", if they can kidnap children, what can they do with the inter web...  . 0trust.  .

[TECSHARE]

it's impressive what the open internet can do to freedom of expression and the issues that can be discuss freely by anyone wishing to take part in them, however you have to understand and accept that the same people that do that to children have all interest in you not having those discussion, exposing the wideness of the scandals. I think you should take the opportunity to use decentralized system of communication as back up, the "controllers" seem to be moving to close such open places with their new "regulations", if they can kidnap children, what can they do with the inter web...  . 0trust.  .

This is all true, all except the part of them depending on everyone not having this conversation. The overwhelming abomination that is consuming children for profit is so atrocious, that people put it out of their minds simply so they do not have to realize the fact that it is a truly horrible reality, therefore necessitating action on their part. The nazis called this "the big lie".

[Naine]

it's impressive what the open internet can do to freedom of expression and the issues that can be discuss freely by anyone wishing to take part in them, however you have to understand and accept that the same people that do that to children have all interest in you not having those discussion, exposing the wideness of the scandals. I think you should take the opportunity to use decentralized system of communication as back up, the "controllers" seem to be moving to close such open places with their new "regulations", if they can kidnap children, what can they do with the inter web...  . 0trust.  .

The CPS in Norway are not happy. They complained that one of the Michalák boys  was able to find information about his case on internet. And this is bad.

I suppose if the foster parents are telling him, that his mother does not love him...and he can find different information...it is "bad".

[Naine]

The mother of the boys  is prohibited to take the pictures of boys and to post the old ones on internet.
The foster parents posted the pictures on Facebook
http://www.blesk.cz/clanek/zpravy-udalosti/302415/kauza-odebranych-ceskych-deti-v-norsku-pestouni-se-kluky-chlubi-na-facebooku-matce-to-bylo-zakazane.html

The Lithuanian case
http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/society/norways-ambassador-to-lithuania-speaks-out-on-child-custody-controversy-involving-norwegian-child-services.d?id=67143444
http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/lithuanian-foreig-minister-and-norwegian-ambassador-discuss-childrens-rights-protection.d?id=67106628
http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/society/polish-investigator-who-kidnaps-lithuanian-children-from-norways-child-services-we-did-things-we-cannot-talk-about.d?id=67100792

[BitMos]

The mother of the boys  is prohibited to take the pictures of boys and to post the old ones on internet.
The foster parents posted the pictures on Facebook
http://www.blesk.cz/clanek/zpravy-udalosti/302415/kauza-odebranych-ceskych-deti-v-norsku-pestouni-se-kluky-chlubi-na-facebooku-matce-to-bylo-zakazane.html

http://saintsal.com/facebook/

...
Commercial data brokers

And as I'll explain later, most of this information finds its way into the public anyway. No need for NSA programmes because of marketing data companies who de-anonymise all your data to sell it again and again. This is done systematically and automatically. There's an industry around this. There are marketplaces to buy and sell consumer data, orginally started around credit agencies and direct mail companies, then growing with the browser toolbar industry when Internet Explorer was big - now they're filled with more information than ever before. A recent example is RapLeaf which collected and released personally identifiable information, including Facebook and MySpace IDs. They stopped after serious controversy, but not only was the damage done, there were other companies who escaped the bad PR and kept up the same practice. It's not about how marketers target ads to you, it's that your data is bought and sold to try.

Where might you travel in the future? Do you trust their law enforcement with this information about you? Because they're buying it.

Intercepting your communication

The thing is that you don't need a conspiracy theory to be concerned. Mark Zuckerburg himself has been public and consistent to his investors about his intentions:

1) To be the middle-man in all personal communication.

That's why they made Messenger and bought WhatsApp, but don't forget that they've tried worse. When they made Facebook email, they took advantage of users who were syncing their Facebook contacts. They made it so everyone's @facebook.com address would be the default. Why? So that your friends would email you at your @facebook.com address instead, and they'd be able to read your emails too.

2) To make all personal communication public over time.

That's why they slowly changed the default privacy settings to public, made privacy settings harder and harder to use, and now are pretending that their privacy helper will change this.

In reality, there a loads of privacy breaches you can't turn off, like allowing advertisers to use your endorsement to your friends, turning off how Facebook tracks what you read on the internet, or disallowing Facebook from collecting other information about you. You can't turn them off!

...

the cyberspace is just another battlefield...

[Marianne Skanland]

  
The report, now in a preliminary form, from the Council of Europe which you have linked to, Naine, is very important, I think:
Social services in Europe: legislation and practice of the removal of children from their families in Council of Europe member States
January 2015

And it is brand new! I had no idea of its existence. Wonderful - where ever did you find it? There are several formulations there which are so rightly critical of abuses going on that I can hardly believe my eyes. I have only skimmed through it, but I must study it more closely. (Hmm, the reporter is Russian, Nemo - a feather in Russia's cap too!)

*

About different countries:

A thought about CPS in the Southern Europe. I don't see many (any) complaints about it. Having lived in Spain and travelled around Italy, I can say that family structure and  bonds there is very close to those of Russians and Eastern Europeans. A Spanish family as a whole would fight tooth and nail if a child is even slightly inconvenienced, independent of how distant a relative that child is.

I wonder if it's only my impression or if it is actually better to move South to avoid CPS harassment that surfaces in Scandinavia, Finland, GB, Holland, Germany, Switzerland..?

I don't think it is only your impression. There are indications that the countries of Southern Europe have a greater respect for the family than we do further north, and I think probably it has something to do with their Catholic faith, its greater veneration of mothers and family ties altogether.

Mind you, the northerners can "impress" them about our "welfare" and our court procedures, so that they will hand over Scandinavian refugees with children to the country which demands them back. Exactly because the southern countries do not take children away from their families on the same loose grounds that Norway does, Norway can wave court verdicts which seem very very impressive and the southerners will perhaps tend to believe that in a near perfect country like Norway, with its heavenly economy and divine social welfare system, a parent who has been condemned by a court to lose his/her children must be very bad indeed. I guess they have difficulties understanding how pervasive the lies and deception of the CPS system are, and find it equally incredible that Norway should send halv a dozen policemen and social workers down to get a child, unless that child was in incredible danger.

But nevertheless: I think Catholicism gives a certain protection against the inhuman thinking so usual in CPS circles, which perhaps Protestantism and atheism do not give equally naturally.

And since we already have the promising report from the Council of Europe (to which the European Court of Human Rights "belongs"), let me mention one particular person:
the French judge at the European Court of Human Rights, Edmond Pettiti, at the time of the Olsson cases against Sweden. He is the judge that to my mind really stands out in Strasbourg. And he was a devout Catholic, I believe. He went extra strongly against the Swedish authorities in a dissenting opinion, expressing among other things the importance of the parents' love and "respect of their most sacred rights". Here it is:

•••
Olsson 2: PARTLY DISSENTING OPINION OF JUDGE PETTITI, JOINED BY
JUDGES MATSCHER* AND RUSSO

"The social welfare authorities displayed what was almost
contempt both for the national courts and the European Court. It is
somewhat surprising that neither the courts nor the governmental
authorities managed to force the "imperialism" of the social
services to give ground.

At no time did the social welfare authorities take the least
account of the love for their children that the parents sought to
express, a love that was demonstrated by the years of struggle in
proceedings to seek to obtain the return of the children and the
respect of their most sacred rights.

Clearly, the Olsson parents' attitude was not always
helpful, particularly after 1989, and they must therefore bear a
part of the responsibility. Yet one must not forget their despair
after the repeated failures with which they met even after the
favourable decisions of the European Court and the national courts
(see paragraph 53 et seq. of the present judgment)."
•••

A little more about the Olsson cases is included e.g in this article:
Norway and Sweden – where inhuman rights prevail
by Siv Westerberg

  

[Nemo1024]

 
The report, now in a preliminary form, from the Council of Europe which you have linked to, Naine, is very important, I think:
Social services in Europe: legislation and practice of the removal of children from their families in Council of Europe member States
January 2015

And it is brand new! I had no idea of its existence. Wonderful - where ever did you find it? There are several formulations there which are so rightly critical of abuses going on that I can hardly believe my eyes. I have only skimmed through it, but I must study it more closely. (Hmm, the reporter is Russian, Nemo - a feather in Russia's cap too!)

I found a good analysis of the report here:
https://celticknotblog.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/social-services-in-europe-legislation-and-practice-of-the-removal-of-children-from-their-families-in-council-of-europe-member-states/

There is one political problem, that I hope will not detract from the report, exactly because it comes from a Russian reporter.
Russia was denied voting rights in PACE for the second year in the row under the bad pretext of Ukraine and considers leaving the Council of Europe altogether next year as it sees no point in paying a membership fee if it is not going to be heard anyway.

But nevertheless: I think Catholicism gives a certain protection against the inhuman thinking so usual in CPS circles, which perhaps Protestantism and atheism do not give equally naturally.

Maybe, though being an atheist in at least 3rd generation, I would disagree. Atheists tend to subscribe to humanistic views, with the main principal of "do to others as you would like others do to you".

[Marianne Skanland]

  
On the news on Norwegian tv2 just now, 16 February at 3 pm, there was a short report from Prague. I don't know if you'll credit it, but it was actually about Norwegian teenagers who were vacationing in Prage in their winter holidays. The "winter holidays" run for a week with schools closed.

Cf "the joke" above – I "stole" it and posted it here, tried to sort of summarise it together with the comment that you could see them in Minorca:
Joke circulating – Adopt your Norwegian child!
 
Back to the news: It seems that there is a firm - or an organisation - which specialises in arranging a kind of "package tour" to Prague for Norwegian school kids. The firm rents several bars or restaurants where these kids go and party, some of them are under 18. The arranging firm has refused to be interviewed by tv, but has sent them a mail saying that the under-age teenagers are not supposed to drink alcohol and that the firm provides "guards" to take care of that and keep general order. One participant, who was over 18, was interviewed in the street and said that in reality no questions are asked and that those under 18 were served and drank like everyone else. A hotel manager was interviewed and talked about trouble – there were other guests to consider (people who evidently didn't unreservedly like the wild crazy Norwegian youngsters) and he also said that they liked to keep their hotel nice and undamaged. I didn't catch whether this hotel had thrown the Norwegian wild ones out.

So, you don't have to go as far as Minorca to see them. – Norwegian upbringing, including that brought about by Norwegian child protection, no doubt. Well actually, lots of grown-up Norwegian people behave just about the same both on holiday and at home of a Saturday night.

But we Norwegians, especially Norwegian child protection experts, of course know best about everything regarding children, the kind of upbringing they should have, the milieu they should live in, what "stimulation" they need! (The "lack of adequate stimulation" is one of the CPS's pet accusations against parents.) So of course it is best for Eva Michaláková's boys to grow up in Norway and under expert guidance by Norwegians! ( ?? Hollow laughter)
  

[Naine]

 

Wonderful - where ever did you find it? There are several formulations there which are so rightly critical of abuses going on that I can hardly believe my eyes. I have only skimmed through it, but I must study it more closely. (Hmm, the reporter is Russian, Nemo - a feather in Russia's cap too!)

  

I am a professional  (I am paid, you can say overpaid,  for finding information).
I was digging information for reaction of the Council of Europe, because Norway is not an EU member, so this is a place to complain.
Additionally there was the case when CPC authority questioned this small girl for four hours to forced her to say that her father is a pedo and she won her case against Norway.

This is not only Norway.  The cases from the UK are also bad.

This case had a happy end
http://www.maminka.cz/clanek/jana-v-norsku-mi-malem-sebrali-helenku

Jana is a young Czech  woman, she has met a bloke from Norway in Prague, she has married him and moved to Norway. A daughter was born and her family was visiting. The went for a walk with the pram. it was cold, they entered a café  and ordered a grog (she was not breastfeeding any more). The waitress look funny, after some time she had a discussion with an another customer. They called somebody After 15 min police arrived with a CPC, everybody ended in the local police station. CPC wanted to take the baby.  What saved her was that her husband was from Norway and he is a physician. When he arrived everybody changed tune, she was offered a place to change nappies....

[Naine]

 
 
Back to the news: It seems that there is a firm - or an organisation - which specialises in arranging a kind of "package tour" to Prague for Norwegian school kids.

This is the whole Scandinavia + the UK problem. Few days ago Danish students demolished a Prague hotel.
I think that many people in the Scandinavia have the same attitude to alcohol as a child of an alcoholic (you are or an abstinent or an alcoholic) + plus Norway is a part of the vodka belt, because if you look at the consumption per capita it is pretty low in Norway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

[Naine]

"This home therapist was a 60-year-old woman, unmarried with no children. She had no kind of education for a profession as "home therapist"

At my second grade I had a teacher, 60+, unmarried and childless. I do not remember her fondly.
The only people, who know precisely how to raise a child are people, who do not have any.

[Naine]

News from Lithuania, few pretty angry MPs
http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/politics/group-of-mps-want-lithuanian-government-to-pick-a-fight-with-norway-over-childrens-welfare.d?id=67207776

[Nemo1024]

This case had a happy end
http://www.maminka.cz/clanek/jana-v-norsku-mi-malem-sebrali-helenku

Jana is a young Czech  woman, she has met a bloke from Norway in Prague, she has married him and moved to Norway. A daughter was born and her family was visiting. The went for a walk with the pram. it was cold, they entered a café  and ordered a grog (she was not breastfeeding any more). The waitress look funny, after some time she had a discussion with an another customer. They called somebody After 15 min police arrived with a CPC, everybody ended in the local police station. CPC wanted to take the baby.  What saved her was that her husband was from Norway and he is a physician. When he arrived everybody changed tune, she was offered a place to change nappies....

This case is pretty interesting from a logical point of view: the woman's sister and this sister's fiancé didn't speak Norwegian. The woman's husband was not with them, so it is natural to assume that all three were speaking Czech in the café. To a causal observer (e.g.: the waitress) they would look just like a group of tourists. In other words, this case is a clear indication that Norwegian CPS can target tourists visiting the country and attempt taking these tourists' kids from them.

[BitMos]

This case had a happy end
http://www.maminka.cz/clanek/jana-v-norsku-mi-malem-sebrali-helenku

Jana is a young Czech  woman, she has met a bloke from Norway in Prague, she has married him and moved to Norway. A daughter was born and her family was visiting. The went for a walk with the pram. it was cold, they entered a café  and ordered a grog (she was not breastfeeding any more). The waitress look funny, after some time she had a discussion with an another customer. They called somebody After 15 min police arrived with a CPC, everybody ended in the local police station. CPC wanted to take the baby.  What saved her was that her husband was from Norway and he is a physician. When he arrived everybody changed tune, she was offered a place to change nappies....

This case is pretty interesting from a logical point of view: the woman's sister and this sister's fiancé didn't speak Norwegian. The woman's husband was not with them, so it is natural to assume that all three were speaking Czech in the café. To a causal observer (e.g.: the waitress) they would look just like a group of tourists. In other words, this case is a clear indication that Norwegian CPS can target tourists visiting the country and attempt taking these tourists' kids from them.

act of war.

[carlosiness]

it's a big problem, just have watched few shows about this issue and I believe, that Norway should pay attention to different cultures, not just impose its culure and laws to imigrants. they work for them and contribute to theirs economy.. it requires compromise...

[Marianne Skanland]

But nevertheless: I think Catholicism gives a certain protection against the inhuman thinking so usual in CPS circles, which perhaps Protestantism and atheism do not give equally naturally.

Maybe, though being an atheist in at least 3rd generation, I would disagree. Atheists tend to subscribe to humanistic views, with the main principal of "do to others as you would like others do to you".

I bow to what is probably very superior knowledge as regards atheists, since my knowledge is restricted, it is true. I do not have any systematic overview.

But regarding Christians I think it may be as I said. The Catholic form of Christianity places Mary, the mother of Christ, very centrally. With that tends to go an ingrained awareness of and respect for motherhood that is absent from protestantism in my experience (Lutheran protestantism has been predominant in Norway since the reformation and still is). "Getting rid of" the worship of saints, and the Holy Virgin Mary among them, was one of the elements in the protestant reformation.

**

This video is a year old:

Norvegija „Barnevernet - vaikų medžioklė"
Norvegijos – on youtube, 18 January 2015


It is probably interesting in itself, I think (my guess is it is in Polish, with Lithuanian texting), and there are many more relevant ones in the right hand margin on youtube. I am very glad that there is so much activity exposing and discussing Norwegian CPS abroad now. The title I think means something like "Norwegian Barnevernet (the child protection service) hunts for children".

A search with the words "vaikų medžioklė" gives a long list of hits.

    

[Nemo1024]

Finnish Ministry of Justice came with a statement that taking of the children from the families is done as the last resort and always for the better of the children, according to the following article in Russian:

http://tass.ru/obschestvo/1793461

Ha!