Child Kidnappings by the Western-European States

[Proua]

Papers say that MTÜ Eesti Vanemad (Estonian Parents, organisator)
http://www.eestivanemad.ee/
is "hand from Kreml" (Russia, enemy) and really do not stand for children. Its Russian propaganda, says minister of science and education, Jürgen Ligi.
http://m.delfi.ee/eesti/article.php?id=73417737
Defencepolice said there is nothing illegal within MTÜ created in 2014, but just lies and malinformation. Despite that conclusion gevernment labels them to be "enemys propaganda".

parentsofestonia@outlook.com

Now, you, see, anyone taking part, will be an "enemy of Estonia". Does anybody dare to come?!
Some, say, that "we dont believe your threatening with bad Russia any longer, since government uses it everywhere",
but those are not many brave people.

[Nemo1024]

PS: In Estonia the thing is that the older people often know Russian well, youth does not. Older Russians (occupants) do not know Estonian language, youth knows it better. Reason: Until 1990, estonians had to know russian if they wanted to manage in ESSR (Estonian Soviet Social Republic). Schools for Russian children taught Estonian very negligently. Now, from 1992, we do not have any longer two languages officially. So, young Estonians dont have to learn Russian any more and they dont and Russian children are now under pressure, obliged to learn Estonian on high level, believe me, they struggle hard with it, since parents cant help them. My own opinion is that no matter is there one or two languages, both local groups should be taught, for free and well. But it wont happen of course, just dreaming.

Oh, dear. Proua, you were doing quite well, until you mentioned "occupants", and the remaining string of the modern propaganda stereotypes so lavishly seen in the Baltic MSM.

Let's go off-topic a little, and inspect this.

Yes, Russian being the state language of USSR, was studied in the whole of the country as it was the common means of communication. However, you are made to forget, that the official Soviet (and Russian) policy regarding languages was that local languages had to be studied and known. In Estonia, as well as other Soviet republics, you would, for example, not be accepted into higher educational institutions, without passing an exam on the local language. From a Lithuanian friend of my family, whose ancestors moved there from Russia in late 1700s, I know the requirements for the fluency in Lithuanian in LitSSR.

One can say that now that Estonia has no ties to Russia, learning Russian is an optional personal matter. I won't argue with that, though many European states - Russia, Norway, Switzerland, Finland - have multiple official state languages. But Estonia cannot be proud of swinging into the extreme of banning everything that's Russian, creating a class of "non-citizens", who are denied citizen rights, despite having been born in Estonia and contributing to Estonia's well-being.

For an "occupied" territory Estonia, and the other two Baltic republics were doing quite well - they were the richest republics, with the living standard surpassing even those found in Moscow. Pouring money and resources, and building up industry is not how an occupation usually works. I am from Moscow. As a child, back in the mid-80's, I spent some time in Tallinn and I was floored - it was like getting to the West, when it came to how people dressed, how the life was organised.

And finally, if one follows the international law, it is a murky water, when it comes to Estonia's legal stature:
http://stanislavs.org/nikolay-starikov-estonia-should-pay-back-the-money-for-which-peter-the-great-bought-it-from-sweden-300-years-ago/

Nikolay Starikov:

“We are asked to respect the international law all the time. It’s a great idea, and I totally agree with that. All we need is to determine from what historical moment we need to start honoring it.

In 1913, Estonia and Latvia were the acknowledged territory of the Russian Empire, which they joined under the various treaties, that no one can question. In particular, it is Nystadt Peace of 1721, concluded between Russia and Sweden, by which Peter the Great paid a few million gold talers for those lands, where the modern Estonia and part of Latvia are located.

I would like to ask, when and where our Estonian partners paid back the money we spent on the acquisition of these territories from Sweden? I am not aware of such historical facts.

After the revolution of 1917, which was a violation of law, the Bolsheviks signed a treaty and recognized the independence of Estonia. In 1920, approximately the same way Ukraine received “independence”. Then in 1940, an agreement was signed with the same Estonia, and it became part of the Soviet Union. After its collapse, Estonia gained independence. But the question is, what starting date we should consider to comply with international legislation, as in 1985 the borders of the Soviet Union and the inalienability of Estonia was undisputed, exactly the same as the territory of the Russian Empire in 1913.

Because our partners constantly seek out those contracts, dates and situations that meet their interests, let’s learn from them. My position is as follows: let the Estonians pay back with inflation over the past 300 years the money paid by Peter the Great, and then we will have no more questions for them.”

[Proua]

Oh, yes, I find that I mostly agree with you.  I meant "occupants" just for explanation because people in Estonia are always frightened with that word. Its pure brainwashing, but it works. However, I can be sure that studying Estonian was not so important at 1950-1980, as Russian could always get higher education in Russia (St. Petersburg and Moscow). So, Estonian was learnt and teached quite lazy. People learned more by communication,but as it was USSR then Estonians had to learn more.
Russians should not be demonised like they are today, no matter was that occupation or not. People are here and they should be treated with respect. Unfortunately, we cant see that today - even my own children, bilingual locals by birth, still suffer from that attitude. Bullying goes on throughoughly. So, I grew up living in 3 regimes, in ESSR and independent Estonian Republic and Estonian Rep. in EU, and I've seen it all.
I am teaching to Russian children Estonian by private lessons, and I see "tons" of these sufferers, crying out for help, because parents cant help them at all despite the parents were born here. On paper, its all beautiful, Russians "are made to study Estonian at early stage", ""language environment", etc. Its on paper only. In reality, 90% of schools just do not cope. And parents cant support. Method and system does not (STILL!) work. I am not the one to say, what is wrong. But something is and badly. Over half of Russian students get very weak grades, and are not happy (not to say hate) Estonian classes. There is no fun, there is no help.
I see young Estonians a lot out of business, jobs in private sector which needs knowledge of Russian. And well educated Russians, some even with bad knowledge of Estonian, snatch the jobs in front of young Estonians faces.
It is claimed, that Russians were and are taught Estonian language well. Its a lie! In fact, they have to pay a lot and struggle hard, so many just dont care any more. Russians are thrown overboard. I believe the 2nd and 3rd generation does NOT deserve this!

But thats not so important now. Did you see my post about our papers and minister? The fight in that keywording will be extremely difficult, in double.

[bizerinm]

That's really dangerous. Here can be strong manipulations. You can find yourself on the court without your child and guilty for some reason which is nonsense at all. I remember a Serbian couple in Switzerland who stayed without their two children because they put them in other school than one that was proposed by township. There is different custom in different countries and to prevent abuse to take child and give it to a well financed couple without children, should be agreed generally what is children abuse.

[Nemo1024]

Norway Child Welfare Service faces growing global protests
http://www.thelocal.no/20160212/norway-child-protection-agency-faces-further-protests

A new wave of protests, mostly by Romanian citizens, has confronted Norwegian embassies around the world in response to a controversial case surrounding five children that were taken out of the care of their Norwegian/Romanian parents by the Norwegian Child Welfare Service (Barnevernet).

    Czechs disinvite Norway over forced adoption (08 Oct 15)
    'Norway took my child because of pretty dress' (28 Aug 15)
    Czech pres asks Norway king to get kids back (12 Jun 15)
    Swedish paper slams Norway’s child welfare (12 May 15)

A high-profile case in which five children were removed from their parents’ care by the Barnevernet in November has reignited international criticism of the Norwegian child welfare service.

...

From one of the other articles, linked above:

...
“Very many people come from other cultures with no government intervening in their domestic affairs. Then they come to Norway and the government intervenes in the family and they have no experience with this,” said Gunnar Toresen, head of the Child Protection Service in Stavanger.

Pettersen's case is not unique. According to the latest available statistics 6,737 children were taken into care in 2012, some 1,049 were immigrants or born to immigrant parents.

The actions of the Norwegian authorities have causes diplomatic disputes with a number of countries including India and Russia.
...

See also (from 2013):

Norway wants Brazil kid in care 'for eating wrong'
http://www.thelocal.no/20131204/norway-fights-to-take-brazilian-child-into-care-for-eating-wrong

...

"Put simply, it's an abuse of authority," Ana Lucia Lima, a friend of Jesumary's and a pastor at a pentecostal church in Oslo, told The Local.  "They say she's not eating like it's normal to do here in Norway and that she's developing a dominating character among her friends. They say this is because she's not getting good parenting."

...

The Brazilian embassy is giving Jesumary its full support, and Lima intends to lead the Brazilian community on a march to the Norwegian parliament on Saturday in protest at the decision.
 
Jesumary, who speaks neither Norwegian nor English, recently divorced from the girl's father, a Norwegian of Chilean descent, and fought a court battle for custody over the child, which ended up involving the child welfare authority.
 
The father told state broadcaster NRK that he also now wanted the mother and daughter to return to Brazil.
 
"I support (her) wish that they travel to Brazil,” he told NRK. “As I see it, it’s the only solution. We don’t think this can be solved in court.”

...

[Marianne Skanland]

  
Lots of things going on. Most important: all the demonstrations and interest abroad, of which the Norwegian authorities understand precisely nothing. Whenever they are asked, they answer by "explaining" how the system works, in other words as if the ones who ask are law-students who want to be informed about the procedure.

It has not yet dawned on our authorities that the foreigners ask about the content of CPS decisions, not about their form - that the questions in reality ask: "How can Norway defend doing this to children and parents?"

Or perhaps the authorities understand, but since they have no proper reply, they talk like parrots. Again and again.

*

An interesting American website about both the Bodnariu case and other CPS cases and issues nowadays, is

Delight in Truth
http://delightintruth.com

The site has readers from actually every country on earth, it seems (cf the right-hand column), and I have out of interest made a little list of places in Norway which readers come from; the list runs to over 100 places now and there are still new arrivals.
  

[Marianne Skanland]

  
The European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg at long last seems to be getting tougher on the member states regarding CPS and forced adoption – the court may have become less trusting of the member states when the states explain away what they do to children and families?

Here is a Norwegian case of forced adoption which has now been accepted for trial by the ECtHR (hopefully, google translation will give some idea of the content, or else some capable Scandinavians can help with a proper translation?)

“Tvangsadopsjonen som kan endre norsk barnevern for alltid: – Barna mine spør om når de skal få treffe storebror. Det kan jeg ikke svare på”
Nå må Norge svare for seg i Den europeiske menneskerettighetsdomstolen.

(The forced adoption that can change Norwegian Barnevern (CPS) for ever: – My children ask when they can meet their big brother. I cannot answer them.
Now Norway has to answer to the European Court of Human Rights.)

Dagbladet, 12 March 2016
http://www.dagbladet.no/2016/03/12/nyheter/innenriks/barnevern/43463888/

The case can perhaps be found here as a pending case:
http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=home  

Let us just hope that the Norwegian state does not WIN in Strasbourg!

[Mike Christ]

That old quote just keeps coming back with these nanny state nations:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

[Marianne Skanland]

  
Yes indeed, Mike!


Here is a rouser for 16 April:

Appeal to Oslo, Stryn, Bergen and the Rest of Norway!
Delight in Truth, 13 March 2016


  

[TECSHARE]

If you live in a common law nation WATCH THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIvzxK5aZs8

[Betwrong]

This is not kidnapping. This is the value that the Norway gives to the children.

You can't abuse children in Norway...

That's good of course that Norway protects children because they are most unprotected beings on this planet and suffer a lot in many countries where no one cares about their protection. The dark side of this protection is unappropriate usage of the law. There are always some bureaucratic idiots who will spoil any good intention and that is the case in OP's story.

[samlanhan1]

This is not kidnapping. This is the value that the Norway gives to the children.

You can't abuse children in Norway...

Unless your the government

[Marianne Skanland]

The dark side of this protection is unappropriate usage of the law. There are always some bureaucratic idiots who will spoil any good intention and that is the case in OP's story.

If it had been a question of some idiots striking out a line of their own or simply messing up a few cases, the faults would have been corrected and restitution made to the affected families. Unfortunately it is not. It is a system fault and it's serious.

  

[TECSHARE]

Marianne, please watch the video I linked above and suggest his work to anyone you know trying to recover their children within common law nations. He is extremely effective at fighting the CPS/DCFS in the USA and getting children returned to their parents in the US. He is also willing to travel abroad occasionally to help families recover their children.

[Hirose UK]

Governments kidnap people all the time. But they call it "arresting".

technically it's not kidnaping people, but keep people away from their daily activities because of their own faults.

anyway I think people kidnapping those children aren't govenrments, don't they?

[TECSHARE]

Governments kidnap people all the time. But they call it "arresting".

technically it's not kidnaping people, but keep people away from their daily activities because of their own faults.

anyway I think people kidnapping those children aren't govenrments, don't they?

Not all people who have their children taken have done anything wrong. In most places it only takes a mere accusation, and some times not even that. Family courts in the US are an extra judicial civil code system outside of the normal rule of law, which is why they are notoriously hard to resist. Most people don't realize that when you get a birth certificate for your child you are literally handing ownership of them over to the county of their birth, which is how CPS/DCFS has this extra judicial power.

[samlanhan1]

Governments kidnap people all the time. But they call it "arresting".

technically it's not kidnaping people, but keep people away from their daily activities because of their own faults.

anyway I think people kidnapping those children aren't govenrments, don't they?

Not all people who have their children taken have done anything wrong. In most places it only takes a mere accusation, and some times not even that. Family courts in the US are an extra judicial civil code system outside of the normal rule of law, which is why they are notoriously hard to resist. Most people don't realize that when you get a birth certificate for your child you are literally handing ownership of them over tot he county of their birth, which is how CPS/DCFS has this extra judicial power.

I hear about the birth certificate giving the government ownership of your child pretty often. I don't have children yet but I don't want the state to have legal rights to me children. Do you have any more information or sources on this?

[TECSHARE]

Governments kidnap people all the time. But they call it "arresting".

technically it's not kidnaping people, but keep people away from their daily activities because of their own faults.

anyway I think people kidnapping those children aren't govenrments, don't they?

Not all people who have their children taken have done anything wrong. In most places it only takes a mere accusation, and some times not even that. Family courts in the US are an extra judicial civil code system outside of the normal rule of law, which is why they are notoriously hard to resist. Most people don't realize that when you get a birth certificate for your child you are literally handing ownership of them over tot he county of their birth, which is how CPS/DCFS has this extra judicial power.

I hear about the birth certificate giving the government ownership of your child pretty often. I don't have children yet but I don't want the state to have legal rights to me children. Do you have any more information or sources on this?

It is a fairly complicated subject, I suggest you do your own research. It is related to the difference between maritime contract law and common law. Here is a brief video summary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnJ1rOFK7o

[terramunde]

It is very true that the 'Child Protection' body (barnevernet) in fact separates children (in many cases permanently) from their families for totally fabricated reasons (see also BODNARIU CASE). This is no doubt profoundly traumatic for the children (this ill-famed institution breaking their hearts and spirit rather than protecting them as it should if it claims to do so) and it breaks the basic bond which forms in the early years thus endangering a healthy, affectionate or respectful relation with their parents for ever. It is a life-wrecking experience and destroys the children's lives and their family. Norway is a criminal Nazi country. The agreements with the European Union as part of the European Economic Area should be abolished. Norway breaks fundamental rights as children should also have fundamental rights, such as that to be allowed to live in their natural family ESPECIALLY in the years when their personality is formed. This Nazi country strikes terror in the heart of traditional, caring and God-fearing parents and people in general all around Europe. Norway apart from being the shame of Europe is murderous and ought to be firmly sanctioned in order to put an end to these outrageous breaches of human rights. Too many parents claim abuse against their children by this criminal institution. They can't be all wrong. And the truth about this abominable fact has to be told. It's unbelievable that these abductions continue to be carried on officially (or with official or legal sanction) in the 21st century in a country supposed to be connected with the EU.

[Qunenin]

Kidnappers should be hanged