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Author Topic: [CLOSING...] MOVETO.FUND - MoveTo Growth Fund  (Read 11447 times)
Bitcoin Oz
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August 23, 2012, 03:06:57 AM
 #121

In the case that pirate is unable to payout, which is highly unlikely, I will be forced to sell all of my assets to fund the returns. This will require the liquidation of all of my mining hardware and will require a larger time frame.

I have no worries about Nick.

He'd have to have liquidated all of his assets and all of his mining hardware to cover deposits of three months ago? And you have no worries because he says its highly unlikely? Then I have more worries about you than him.

#1 I trust Nick's character, which I had cross-referenced by other very trustworthy forum members.
#2 Based on this, I believe Nick that if pirate does default, he will sell off his GLBSE assets and mining equipment to cover the debt (or perhaps we could even negotiate a deal, depending on the assets, to have them directly transferred).
#3 I also believe a pirate default is extremely unlikely, again, based on information about how pirate generates his returns.

Now, if I was depositing money with Dank or Rusty Ryan then you'd have a real reason to worry, but not here. We have deposited with Nick since the very start of the fund, so if you strongly feel this way then you should not have invested with us. We have to take some risk; I cannot generate returns by sitting on coins in cold storage.

 I would definitely be concerned if you had anything invested with those. I am confident you can pick the correct investments or otherwise I wouldnt have invested with you tl:dr thats what we pay you the big bucks for  Cheesy

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Bitcoin Oz
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August 23, 2012, 06:34:09 AM
 #122

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102651.0 this stuff is going to help good traders  Smiley

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August 23, 2012, 06:43:06 AM
 #123

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102651.0 this stuff is going to help good traders  Smiley
  Should help vastly improve liquidity and help make the move to cytokine's A-game.

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August 25, 2012, 06:28:39 PM
 #124

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102651.0 this stuff is going to help good traders  Smiley
 Should help vastly improve liquidity and help make the move to cytokine's A-game.

More liquidity would be great for us. However, as for the particular features, we probably wouldn't use most of them except for maybe occasionally margin and lending securities at high interest rates.

Generally speaking though I'm not a huge fan of leverage. There's enough risk out there as it is and we don't need to compound it.

Making the APIs better and faster would be a huge help though. It's taking much too long each day to update the data. I added a manual pre-filter list which has helped greatly since most of the GLBSE is crap anyway so no reason to bother with data for those assets.

We may do a small amount of shorting in the near future, but only in a very careful and controlled manner, and using a much smarter way of doing it than via the GLBSE's shorting feature... and also, I would only short as a hedging method, never as a purely profit making enterprise (unless some special circumstances arose of course).

btw, NAV per share updated to 1.19739576
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August 25, 2012, 06:57:28 PM
 #125

Good to know.  At almost 20% growth since IPO I'd like to say that is an A-game if I ever saw one. Thanks!

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August 25, 2012, 07:04:23 PM
 #126

Good to know.  At almost 20% growth since IPO I'd like to say that is an A-game if I ever saw one. Thanks!
Who has two thumbs and is jelly they missed the IPO?


<------ This guy

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August 29, 2012, 05:25:25 PM
 #127

Good to know.  At almost 20% growth since IPO I'd like to say that is an A-game if I ever saw one. Thanks!
Who has two thumbs and is jelly they missed the IPO?


<------ This guy

Thanks guys!

BTW, Important announcement regarding the fallout and resolution of the BS&T default

I figured I should comment at this time about pirate seeing as how he's basically front-page news in the bitcoin financial markets. As everyone knows, this fund has been free of pirate default risk since inception, and the roughly 20% gain from the IPO has been accomplished without any pirate returns.

In the OP, which I updated today, it states:
What are NON-goals for the fund?
(5) to be a "passthrough" for pirate. The fund will not knowingly expose itself to any pirate default risk.

It is true that I did very recently buy some TYGRR.BOND-P for mere bitcents on the coin as a risky speculation, but am insuring this 100% using my own 6K+ shares of MOVETO.FUND as collateral (soon to be around 8K shares once I move over some more of my personal funds, at which point I'll have 100% of my bitcoin wealth in the fund). I have a hedge in place for this speculation, so we'll see what happens. If on September 11th we don't have a small profit from this, then I will simply retire some of my own shares to compensate for this most certainly misplaced speculation, which was based on information about how pirate claims to generate his returns.

That said, I really don't want to waste time thinking about this pirate crap any longer. Again, all our deposits and investments have been free of pirate default risk to the best of our ability to determine, and so while there may be some fallout from his default (I'm in talks right now to aquire GLBSE assets from Nick Rasse), I have a mission to achieve with this fund and I'm going to continue to do my best to preserve and grow your capital moving forward. After tabulating the fund's spreadsheet, I expect that the NAV per share will likely remain unchanged over the weekend due to a sell-off in the general markets (panic most likely), and of course I'll be doing a full monthly update with the financials. I have also decided that - as a result of such a large scandal - the best idea for us moving forward is to increase our level of conservatism and diversification to reduce the potential for us ever getting whacked by a scammer.

I would also like to take a moment to reaffirm my strong belief in integrity, transparency, and communication, which are all things that Pirate lacked, regardless of if he's just a plain-old scammer or just a guy whose overly risky financial bets went wrong. I will continue to serve you and the mission of the fund to the best of my ability, so lets move onward and upward and leave the pirate ship behind to sink into the sea.

Thanks guys.
-cyto

PS: On a constructive note, I think this event is just more proof that ratings agencies are strongly needed (as I've said before), because my strong point is trading and selecting investments in a technical and data-driven fashion (not to be a professional scam detector), so I would strongly prefer a 3rd party to handle asset ratings so that we can just use a simple filter to reduce our risk. I expect this service is coming soon.
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August 29, 2012, 10:16:25 PM
 #128

Ratings would be helpful and so would more in the area of DROs (dispute resolution organization). I am aware of judge.me but not much else but arbitration is obviously an important component of moving forward in bitcoin based business.  I'd like to see more contracts with more attention to how disputes will be resolved.

 
Quote
I would also like to take a moment to reaffirm my strong belief in integrity, transparency, and communication, which are all things that Pirate lacked, regardless of if he's just a plain-old scammer or just a guy whose overly risky financial bets went wrong.
  +1 This is an ethic which will lead to long term riches far beyond what a pirate could imagine... plus the benefit of the ability to look in the mirror with esteem.

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August 31, 2012, 01:26:43 AM
 #129

I would like to borrow up to 140 shares of MOVETO.FUND. In consideration of this loan, I will pay the lender BTC0.0175 per share, per week for use of your shares. This is roughly 1.5% per week based on the current NAV. This offer expires on August 31 at 11:59PM. I need it to happen by then because Cytokine will only buyback shares of MOVETO on the first of the month and GLBSE lacks any sort of liquidity to enable me to sell these shares without his backing.

The nitty gritty:
I can return your shares to you at any time I wish. You agree that you have no expectation to demand premature return of your shares.
The longest I can hold your shares will be until January 31, 2013, though I think I will return them sooner.
Interest payments of BTC0.0175 per share, per week will be made on Tuesdays. The first and last week's interest will be pro-rated to the nearest day.
You must transfer the shares to my GLBSE account by 11:59PM on August 31, Eastern Time Zone

Counterparty Risk Analysis:
I have hundreds of bitcoins on deposit with forum deposit takers. To Wit:
BTC100 in Starfish demand deposits (Patrick)
BTC200 In the Kraken fund (Patrick again)
BTC50 With Victor Escudero
BTC130 with Hashking in 8-week CDs of varying maturities (not pirate pass throughs)

Additionally, I have a few hundred BTC in my personal wallets and plenty of USD in real bank accounts if I need to buy more bitcoins.

I also have multiple OTC transactions valued at several hundred dollars. Ratings here.

The point I'm trying to make is that I stand by my agreements and have plenty of capital to cover in case things go wrong for me.

I am also willing to escrow if you insist, but we'll have to renegotiate my weekly interest payment to compensate me for the hassle.

Please PM me if interested. This is basically "free money" (via interest payments) for anyone who plans to hold MOVETO.FUND (i.e. not sell it prior to January 31) long term.

Finally, I am not interested in making a deal for fewer than 50 shares. The maximum I will take is 140 shares.

Thank you.
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August 31, 2012, 01:48:29 AM
 #130

I would like to borrow up to 140 shares of MOVETO.FUND. In consideration of this loan, I will pay the lender BTC0.0175 per share, per week for use of your shares. This is roughly 1.5% per week based on the current NAV. This offer expires on August 31 at 11:59PM. I need it to happen by then because Cytokine will only buyback shares of MOVETO on the first of the month and GLBSE lacks any sort of liquidity to enable me to sell these shares without his backing.

The nitty gritty:
I can return your shares to you at any time I wish. You agree that you have no expectation to demand premature return of your shares.
The longest I can hold your shares will be until January 31, 2013, though I think I will return them sooner.
Interest payments of BTC0.0175 per share, per week will be made on Tuesdays. The first and last week's interest will be pro-rated to the nearest day.
You must transfer the shares to my GLBSE account by 11:59PM on August 31, Eastern Time Zone

Counterparty Risk Analysis:
I have hundreds of bitcoins on deposit with forum deposit takers. To Wit:
BTC100 in Starfish demand deposits (Patrick)
BTC200 In the Kraken fund (Patrick again)
BTC50 With Victor Escudero
BTC130 with Hashking in 8-week CDs of varying maturities (not pirate pass throughs)

Additionally, I have a few hundred BTC in my personal wallets and plenty of USD in real bank accounts if I need to buy more bitcoins.

I also have multiple OTC transactions valued at several hundred dollars. Ratings here.

The point I'm trying to make is that I stand by my agreements and have plenty of capital to cover in case things go wrong for me.

I am also willing to escrow if you insist, but we'll have to renegotiate my weekly interest payment to compensate me for the hassle.

Please PM me if interested. This is basically "free money" (via interest payments) for anyone who plans to hold MOVETO.FUND (i.e. not sell it prior to January 31) long term.

Finally, I am not interested in making a deal for fewer than 50 shares. The maximum I will take is 140 shares.

Thank you.

I will provide you 140 of my personal shares. Please send me a PM with your GLBSE username and include PatrickHarnett so that he knows you are providing both your Starfish deposit and your Kraken fund shares as collateral. You must agree to hold these for the duration of the loan since I trust Patrick to turn them over to me in case you do not return the shares of MOVETO.FUND. I will send you an address for the weekly interest payments.
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August 31, 2012, 02:10:51 AM
 #131

I will provide you 140 of my personal shares. Please send me a PM with your GLBSE username and include PatrickHarnett so that he knows you are providing both your Starfish deposit and your Kraken fund shares as collateral. You must agree to hold these for the duration of the loan since I trust Patrick to turn them over to me in case you do not return the shares of MOVETO.FUND. I will send you an address for the weekly interest payments.

Thanks for the quick response. I'm sure we can work something out in private.
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August 31, 2012, 05:46:18 AM
 #132

I will provide you 140 of my personal shares. Please send me a PM with your GLBSE username and include PatrickHarnett so that he knows you are providing both your Starfish deposit and your Kraken fund shares as collateral. You must agree to hold these for the duration of the loan since I trust Patrick to turn them over to me in case you do not return the shares of MOVETO.FUND. I will send you an address for the weekly interest payments.

Thanks for the quick response. I'm sure we can work something out in private.

I was not able to come to an agreement with IveBeenBit, so if anyone else wants to take him up on his offer then please do so.

Note that I will be doing the monthly update this weekend, so you should probably wait until I update the NAV again before initiating any side arrangement since I will be incorporating the monthly fee based on our recent growth.

Thanks,
-cyto
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August 31, 2012, 06:10:41 AM
 #133

FYI I clarified the section on withdrawals in the contract, as well as the section regarding the special buybacks that may be requested after contract modification. The issues in these sections were brought to my attention rather rapidly through my conversation with IveBeenBit.

As always, there is an offer available for all current investors to liquidate at the current NAV due to the contract modification.

Updated contract:

Quote
(0) Each IPO share represents a 1 BTC investment in the fund.
(1) The fund trades and invests primarily in securities on the GLBSE, but may also invest in opportunities outside of the GLBSE.
(2) 80% of earnings are reinvested for fund growth, and 20% are paid out as fees to the fund operator. Fees are paid once a month on the first of the month.
TO CLARIFY:
The 20% fee only applies to the differential between the last high watermark and the new high water mark. This means that I only make money when my investors make money. For example: if we have a losing month, that means I have to make that money back and then some before I can get paid. (This is also known as a performance fee.) There is no management fee.
(3) The NAV per share will be updated once per week on the weekend to be utilized in establishing a share offering price and a share buyback price for that week.
(4) The fund will buy-back shares at the current week's NAV per share during the first week of each month at the request of investors to ensure liquidity and withdrawal ability. However, there will be a 1% redemption fee to prevent capital loss of fund investors due to the costs associated with liquidating positions. (This is why it's better to sell your shares on the open market than to request a buy-back.) Since the fund ideally uses coupons to buy-back shares (to avoid liquidating positions), please allow one full week for the full buyback to occur. For large withdrawals, it may take more time than a single week to buy-back shares, but nevertheless the fund will prioritize these buy-backs over and above all other fund transactions (and in this case, the NAV per share may vary throughout the buyback process since it is updated each weekend).
(5) New shares may be issued at any time at the NAV per share to ensure liquidity for entering MOVETO.FUND
(6) This contract may be amended in the future provided the operator alerts all investors and offers to buy back shares at the full NAV per share at the time the contract was modified. The buy-back offer must be open for one full month after any modification, but it is only valid for those who accrued shares of MOVETO.FUND prior to the contract modification.
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August 31, 2012, 06:44:39 AM
 #134

I made a "final offer" to Cytokine. If he rejects it, I will also have to withdraw my offer to borrow shares & pay interest from the public as I originally proposed, due to ambiguous wording in part (3) his updated contract. Specifically, if he has 1 week to buy back the shares, and changes the NAV in the middle of that week, does he purchase back at the price when you initially requested the buyback, or purchase at the NAV in effect at the moment he sends you the bitcoins?

I was really trying to work out a run of the mill short sale for 140 share and to do this requires the liquidity that his buyback program offered.

Since I don't know how he will interpret rule (3), I am withdrawing the offer since it's getting to be too much uncertainty at this point.

Cytokine - the private offer I sent you just now still stands.

Good luck everyone. I apologize that I cluttered your thread.
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August 31, 2012, 06:59:55 AM
 #135

I made a "final offer" to Cytokine. If he rejects it, I will also have to withdraw my offer to borrow shares & pay interest from the public as I originally proposed, due to ambiguous wording in part (3) his updated contract. Specifically, if he has 1 week to buy back the shares, and changes the NAV in the middle of that week, does he purchase back at the price when you initially requested the buyback, or purchase at the NAV in effect at the moment he sends you the bitcoins?

That is a good point. I update the NAV per share every weekend, and so no I cannot just randomly change it during the week. But it's not that way in the contract, and it probably should be.

EDIT - Fixed the contract above @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82869.msg1148655#msg1148655

I was really trying to work out a run of the mill short sale for 140 share and to do this requires the liquidity that his buyback program offered.

The problem is that the GLBSE is extremely illiquid yet has very high yielding assets. That's why I am forced to take time to do share buy-backs when they occur. The fund, like a standard hedge fund, is really designed for long-term investors, not for short-term trading in and out of the fund.
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August 31, 2012, 08:47:40 AM
 #136

I will provide you 140 of my personal shares. Please send me a PM with your GLBSE username and include PatrickHarnett so that he knows you are providing both your Starfish deposit and your Kraken fund shares as collateral. You must agree to hold these for the duration of the loan since I trust Patrick to turn them over to me in case you do not return the shares of MOVETO.FUND. I will send you an address for the weekly interest payments.

Thanks for the quick response. I'm sure we can work something out in private.

I was not able to come to an agreement with IveBeenBit, so if anyone else wants to take him up on his offer then please do so.

Note that I will be doing the monthly update this weekend, so you should probably wait until I update the NAV again before initiating any side arrangement since I will be incorporating the monthly fee based on our recent growth.

Thanks,
-cyto

I understand you would like to take your monthly fee based on recent growht, but there was a growth really thism month?
I am pointing to the 2400 BTC what you lent to NCKRAZZE. He promissed he will not put it into pirate, but after pirate defaulted he stoped paying interest and principal withdrawal not alowed. I understand why we should be patient. Because until you declare you may naver have that money back it is still counts in the NAV of MOVETEO.FUND and you can collect the fee based upon it.

Please do not start bullshiting as Nick does and do not get your monthly fee with much confidence untill he situation is cleared. He owes the people with 18,000 BTC and unknown how many of it at with pirate because he is nott willing to show us what he has for depositors. I am afraid all of them.


Im eagerly awaiting new information, now that pirate admitted his default.
My deposit is due on 08/31. All accounts due on 08/31 almost sum up to BTC 1000.
So whats the plan Nick?  Smiley

Yes following the news of pirate's default, I have resorted to selling all assets to be able to return your principals. This will be a long process, and for this reason, I have to have your full cooperation on this matter. I will begin liquidating starting as of September 10, 2012. I would hate to see people drop accounts like they did with pirate, but I cannot control this. Therefore, if anyone is interested in selling their investment debt, please contact me so I can arrange the sale. 

I will try my best to get all of your money back from the assets, but I need my lenders to understand that this can be a long and difficult process. You have been very loyal from the start, and I know that this will not be a problem for many of my lenders.

Thanks for the consideration, and I will continue to remain continuously active on this forum as well as IRC. By all means, if you have any questions or concerns, please ask ahead.
-Nick

At the bottom of itt all, would you poprovide us a NAV that takes into consideration that NCRAZEE may never pay, because the loan to him is very very uncertain.


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August 31, 2012, 05:38:04 PM
 #137

I understand you would like to take your monthly fee based on recent growht, but there was a growth really thism month?
I am pointing to the 2400 BTC what you lent to NCKRAZZE. He promissed he will not put it into pirate, but after pirate defaulted he stoped paying interest and principal withdrawal not alowed. I understand why we should be patient. Because until you declare you may naver have that money back it is still counts in the NAV of MOVETEO.FUND and you can collect the fee based upon it.

Ok and a valid point, so I will not collect any performance fees until the situation with Nick has become clear. This implies that the high-water-mark will remain locked at last month's high of 1.1694110613 until such time that Nick repays or otherwise we are given proof of his ability to repay. However, I will maintain the value of Nick's debt preserved at 2400 BTC at this time until we have further information because it would be greatly unfair to reduce the NAV prematurely and thus dilute all of my current investors (since then new investors would be able to get a "free ride" as Nick begins his repayment).

Please do not start bullshiting as Nick does and do not get your monthly fee with much confidence untill he situation is cleared. He owes the people with 18,000 BTC and unknown how many of it at with pirate because he is nott willing to show us what he has for depositors. I am afraid all of them.

Are you one of my long-term investors? If so, you would have realized by now that one of the things I pride myself in is never bullshitting anyone, and I would appreciate it if you treated me with the same level of professionalism and respect that I treat my investors with. I am always honest and transparent. That said, Nick was obviously not honest with me, but I have done my best to avoid pirate exposure in the fund. Considering that I own 8K+ shares of the fund which comprises the entirety of my bitcoin denominated net worth, it's impossible for you to claim that my interests are not aligned with those of my investors. If you worry about Nick's creditors, then you should also understand the amount of stress I incur daily from running this fund and having this level of responsibility.

At the bottom of itt all, would you poprovide us a NAV that takes into consideration that NCRAZEE may never pay, because the loan to him is very very uncertain.
Yes. In the absolute worst-case scenario that Nick completely shafts us and renegs on the entirety of the 2400 BTC, then at this time that comprises exactly 20% of the portfolio and thus the NAV would be reduced to the IPO price of 1.0 BTC per share.

I do not think this absolute worst-case scenario is likely and believe that such an assumption is a case of catastrophic thinking, but you also must realize that the reason interest rates are so high is precisely because the risk is high, and so of course some fallout and drawdown is inevitable at some point in this fund - I have never stated otherwise. But please also consider that this whole pirate fiasco is literally the greatest financial crisis to ever hit bitcoin, yet even if we were to take a 50% haircut on Nick (thus giving us a 10% drawdown) then even under these conditions I will have outperformed my competitors in the realm of bitcoin funds. Even better will be that with pirate gone we will continue to grow without that kind of systemic risk lurking in the background. If you don't believe me, then simply take a look at what's going on with my competitors right now, and I think you'll quickly see how much better I'm performing.

Finally, I would like to say that I'm getting kind of tired of non-constructive verbal abuse from people that only complain once they have the advantage of perfect hindsight. Individuals are few and far between, however, that are willing to take the risk of imperfect foresight, but that's simply the nature of reality and what one must accept if they are to invest. I have thus far given more free money to my investors than I have taken in fees, by a ratio of 2 to 1 (I injected 400 BTC, while thus far have taken only around 200 BTC in fees to cover the huge amount of both stress and coding work that I have put into this fund). Money does not grow on trees, and there are only two legitimate ways to attain it: by doing work or by taking risk. The purpose of the fund is to make money from the latter, but we cannot move forward by falsely believing that we can have our cake and eat it too.
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August 31, 2012, 08:47:56 PM
 #138

Fair play Cytokine. Sorry if I was a little harsh on you but I needed answers on these issues. Thanks for the explanation. I am happy to see there are honest people around to.
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August 31, 2012, 09:00:34 PM
 #139

Fair play Cytokine. Sorry if I was a little harsh on you but I needed answers on these issues. Thanks for the explanation. I am happy to see there are honest people around to.

Just as a comment, it's not just Cytokine getting it in the neck.  There are a lot of nervous and panicky people around as they learn (rather rapidly) the economics of bitcoinland.  Pretty much every person who has offered a fund/bond/deposit is getting it - some more than others.  My observation is Moveto.Fund is being open about the situation even if that is painful and stressful exposing itself to additional criticism and that is a big plus.  I have different questions over in Starfish BCB, but I beleive the approach is correct.
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September 01, 2012, 07:03:33 PM
 #140

MOVETO.FUND Monthly Report 9/1/2012

Portfolio (Using last trade prices as of 9/1/2012)
SYMBOLSHARESPRICEVALUE
COGNITIVE21010.641344.64
BDK.BND43390.1015440.4085
TYGRR-TECH1531153
ABM120.364.32
BDT24761.042575.04
TEEK.B3471.0347
IBB60.553.3
ZIP.A*1390.5180.81
MPOE.ETF41.45.6
CPA1270.0810.16
NASTY9870.75740.25
TYGRR-BOND.D4791.0479
GOLD10.010.01
MOORE10.5090.509
CIUCUI.BOND590.15.9
OBSI.HRPT10.1020.102
TYGRR.BOND-P**20000.4800
TEEK.USD20.10.2
GMVT-BOT10.140.14
BTC0.431869710.4318697
STARFISH2200.633412200.6334
NCKRAZZE*240012400

Valuation
Total: 11581.5347697
# Shares: 9749
NAV per share: 1.1879715632
Last HWM: 1.1694110613
New HWM: 1.1694110613***

* Indicates security is in technical default
** Insured at 0.4 BTC per share
*** High-Water-Mark locked since no performance fees are being charged this month until the situation with NCKRAZZE is resolved.

Summary
There is not much for me to say at this time given that there were sufficient posts made here over this past month that everyone knows exactly what is going on. I hope some clarity emerges over the month of September so that we can get back on track.

Whatever happens, I will keep you posted. Take care,
-cytokine
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