How many Bitcoins to succesfully manipulate price down by $100 ?

[practicaldreamer]

Market manipulation is likely to come from the exchanges themselves because they have the funds to be able to do it sucessfully and they can see what everyone else cant

Got to agree with that. I'm not saying definitively that thats whats occurring - its all essentially speculation - but as you say, the opportunity is definitely there, and, given the potential rewards, well, it certainly makes you think.

  I would say that, were it true, it would present a good argument for regulation.

However, regulation didn't prevent Barclays from manipulating the LIBOR rate.

So whats the answer ? I don't know.

Proof is needed, one way or the other.

Either that, or everyone uses LocalBitcoins for purchases 

[hanisnl]

a bulk load ! )

But I think this is already happening with PayPal and other big players that are stepping into the game ... and let's not forget about the bitcoin premined coins .

Is it? Why is it that some paypal transactions involving bitcoin is still regulated/cancelled/closed down?

Well PayPal is just starting to play with bitcoin, and not as a buy/sell house ( like an exchange ) ... they will use it as a gateway ... because you know, a transaction that is done in the blockchain can not be undone and that sucks for the banks who like chargebacks

Paypal did probably suspend accounts for dubious transactions .. you know, they suck ! and they don't like bitcoins like you and me ... they just like the technology behind it ... but that's just my opinion .

Cheers !

[Trolololo]

The 30k whale, if selling them at "market order", would drive the price to 1 digit...

[CoinCidental]

The 30k whale, if selling them at "market order", would drive the price to 1 digit...

If he does that he won't be a whale for much longer lol

I'll take 30,000 btc  at  1usd each and he won't even have to give the exchange Any fees or commission
(i would pay in cash or whatever  

Of course, the Coins would be bought up long before they got  to single figures never mind 1usd  each imo

[Kprawn]

Let me know in advance, when you planning to do that.

I need to liquidate some things, to buy up all those cheap coins. With the situation like it is now with BTC we can only see one thing happening, and that is a climb to $600+ by the end of this year.

Not a bad ROI if this happens. 

[BootstrapCoinDev]

As per title.

Also, is it happening ?

If it is, would it be more problematic when the price reaches a certain level ?


And, is it a bad thing (necessarily) ?

Because bitcoin does not need money to work, there is no minimum price required for the system to stay alive. No matter how low we go, the sky is still the limit for future valuation. 

Valid point here... Though manipulation is possible and that is one disadvantage of unregulated free market. Even regulated markets have manipulation for that matter!

Mind that the few “early adopters” can use their “kill switch” dumping just once, unless they are able to effectively manipulate the market as they want (dumping and then buying back low).

[Arv1e]

After 30k wall sentiment ,minimum 300-500k +

That wall was because he set his sell price at 290 or 300. Had he set the price lower, the price would have fallen much further. It took several days to work through that 30k inventory. 500k hitting the market at once? If it was just a market order, not a limit order, seeing BTC hit (even temporarily) double or even single digits could be a possibility. Such is how things work in an illiquid market.

Not saying that the price would stay depressed at those levels for the long term, just during the course of the sale. After that inventory is cleared away, he price would be free to rebound to whatever level the market set.

How many times are you going to spout RUBBISH!!!!!!

The sell price was set at $300. Was an amount of 30,000 BTC and took FIVE Hours not days!!!!!!

Instead of continually talking shit check out your facts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uX_bB_4VJk

[wangxinxi]

This depends on when you dump the Bitcoins into the market. Choose a good time where there is little liquidity, you will then easily create a slump.

[Unbelive]

The 30k whale, if selling them at "market order", would drive the price to 1 digit...

Can you do the simple math please.

30k BTC would not do anything. to get price to $10 as you say, there should be sold half bitcoins. And maybe even then would not happen.

To get price to $10, there should be some serious security matter inside Bitcoin.

[BitmoreCoin]

It is required around 30-50.000 bitcoin to manipulate price down by 100$, and this isn't a good thing, some people have this quantity of bitcoin.

The question is how long the price down of $100 will last.

[HWoodrow]

I think that 50.000 Bitcoin can be sufficient to manipulate market price and make fall price down to 100$ and much other. This is one of the worst thing of bitcoin, power is in the hand of few people 

[spazzdla]

I think that 50.000 Bitcoin can be sufficient to manipulate market price and make fall price down to 100$ and much other. This is one of the worst thing of bitcoin, power is in the hand of few people  

Let me get this straight you think $16,500 is enough to crash a $4 billion asset?

Can I have the drugs you are using?

Unless you ment 50 thousand BTC then I am wrong but you should use a comma.

[TheButterZone]

Zero. Code a fake orderbook, delete bids/asks above manipulation point, reboot server, continue laughing at plebs who think BTC will ever reach previous ATH.

[Tstar]

Zero. Code a fake orderbook, delete bids/asks above manipulation point, reboot server, continue laughing at plebs who think BTC will ever reach previous ATH.

ha ha
it is cheapest method to take price down by 100$ or you can take it to anywhere you want
you just need time not bitcoins to make this happens

[maurya78]

Let's start with 26,000 btc again for starters...

[CoinCidental]

Zero. Code a fake orderbook, delete bids/asks above manipulation point, reboot server, continue laughing at plebs who think BTC will ever reach previous ATH.

Gox already tried something like that and they failed spectacularly

If any "whale"  dumped 30-50k Coins  just to cause a price crash they're is no way he would get them all back without losses and be able to do it again

The exchange fees alone would prevent anyone except the exchange themselves doing this at a profit unless they did it themselves

Too many people will buy in a crash unless it's the exchange themselves so the whale would never get all off his cheap coins back because the market orders and the new orders due to the price crash combined would eat a lot of them instantly on the re-buy..............unless they could delay the re-buy somehow but again, only an exchange themselves could rig the order book /delay order processing /delay new money being credit credited / etc so they will win the majority of  times

[practicaldreamer]

If any "whale"  dumped 30-50k Coins  just to cause a price crash they're is no way he would get them all back without losses and be able to do it again

Of course, a lot of this is based on the "zeitgeist" - or rather, the current prevailing market conditions. But under the right conditions a whale could cause a widespread snowballing dump - so, it would be possible, at least, to buy back cheaper.

Also, where does short selling fit into all this ? If you know beforehand that the price is going down by x amount, surely the gains made from short selling have to be factored into the equation.

Or am I confused ?

Just thinking aloud really 

[1Referee]

After 30k wall sentiment ,minimum 300-500k +

300-500K BTC?? LOL! By far not. It really depends on the exchange.

That 30K BTC wall could easily get the price below $100 at Bitstamp causing a flash crash. If the 30K whale decided to do so, he would lose a lot money.

If you try to get the price below $100 at BTC-E, it would probably take a little less than 20K BTC to cause the crash.

[spazzdla]

It does not count if it is only one exchange...

You/they did not drop the price of bitcoin down to $100... you decided you wanted to light your wealth on fire by selling it at 1/3 of what people are paying.

Dropping it to $100 on one exchange for 10 mintues means YOU DID NOT DROP THE PRICE TO $100 you sold your coins off for 1/3 of the going price like a moron.

[practicaldreamer]

Post 569 on this thread explains the mechanics of how the price is manipulated https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316297.msg9468207#new.

Doesn't say how many BTC are needed - but answers the question (in principle) that I was trying to ask.