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Tomatocage
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May 24, 2012, 11:06:10 PM
 #21

Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

Downsides of GPUs : decreasing resale value, high noise, high heat now it is summer, AC costs, maintenance for fans etc. and loads of others.

FPGA are pretty much set and forget compared to GPUs which crash regularly.

Downsides of FPGAs: They're unitaskers.  They're WAY too expensive.  There's already a solution that uses even less power with FAR greater BTC return: PPT bonds.

Right now I'm earning the equivalent of 5 GH/s worth of BTC per month @ 0 Joules.  What does your FPGA farm do?

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May 24, 2012, 11:08:00 PM
 #22

Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

Downsides of GPUs : decreasing resale value, high noise, high heat now it is summer, AC costs, maintenance for fans etc. and loads of others.

FPGA are pretty much set and forget compared to GPUs which crash regularly.

Downsides of FPGAs: They're unitaskers.  They're WAY too expensive.  There's already a solution that uses even less power with FAR greater BTC return: PPT bonds.

Right now I'm earning the equivalent of 5 GH/s worth of BTC per month @ 0 Joules.  What does your FPGA farm do?

Did you get in on the PPT.A series?

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May 24, 2012, 11:16:13 PM
 #23

Quote
Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

Downsides of GPUs : decreasing resale value, high noise, high heat now it is summer, AC costs, maintenance for fans etc. and loads of others.

FPGA are pretty much set and forget compared to GPUs which crash regularly.

FPGAs are a high risk investment...... Speaking of Money and MTBF that is yet to find out (nobody knows what a year of mining does to them!)


PPT.A Bonds:  Where do u think all the Bitcoin come from?

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May 25, 2012, 02:42:19 AM
 #24

Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

You mean the thread on this forum where they're selling cards a month and a half back-ordered for MORE than a BFL with no performance numbers as of yet? Yep, that sounds promising...


Downsides of GPUs : decreasing resale value, high noise, high heat now it is summer, AC costs, maintenance for fans etc. and loads of others.

FPGA are pretty much set and forget compared to GPUs which crash regularly.

I'll give you the other points as valid concerns, esp coming up toward summer, but no resale value? Really? Video cards have an entire other market that coexists (or overlaps, depending on how you look at it) with miners: gamers. You can always sell video cards. FPGAs? There is no other market for crazy fast SHA256 hashers.

I can sorta see where ur coming from, but I think you have it all wrong...

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May 25, 2012, 03:23:30 AM
 #25

When December rolls around if the market crashes, I can still sell off my GPUs at basically no loss. What about you, FPGA owners?

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May 25, 2012, 03:25:21 AM
 #26

Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

You mean the thread on this forum where they're selling cards a month and a half back-ordered for MORE than a BFL with no performance numbers as of yet? Yep, that sounds promising...
You forgot the part where they are using proven parts that are already in use in other designs, and the part where they are a reputable company that actually has been around for 10 years or more, unlike BFL.

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May 25, 2012, 03:50:06 AM
 #27

Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

You mean the thread on this forum where they're selling cards a month and a half back-ordered for MORE than a BFL with no performance numbers as of yet? Yep, that sounds promising...
You forgot the part where they are using proven parts that are already in use in other designs, and the part where they are a reputable company that actually has been around for 10 years or more, unlike BFL.
That, and they're not selling them, they're offering a preorder with no payment until they ship. I have two that should be shipped in July, but if they don't I still have my money in my pocket.
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May 25, 2012, 11:33:56 AM
 #28

Trying to imply I am promoting BFLs ? I think they are a scam ...

GPUs are on the way out ( even for free elec ) and if you don't see it then it will fall like a brick on you in Dec 2012

Soooo You don't think current FPGAs are worth it, but you don't think GPUs will last? What do you suggest, wait for some uber-cheap, high-hash FPGA that has yet to be developed/manufactured/sold?

Also, if you have free elec, what are the downsides of GPU mining, exactly?

Look at yohan's solution from a reputable UK company. Not a scam but 100% professional and not BS like BFL with all the delays ... they are a joke.

Downsides of GPUs : decreasing resale value, high noise, high heat now it is summer, AC costs, maintenance for fans etc. and loads of others.

FPGA are pretty much set and forget compared to GPUs which crash regularly.

You just named a few things people that pay for electricity worry about.... A/C costs.... and so on.. Tongue
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May 25, 2012, 12:33:07 PM
 #29

Question is why ? GPUs are out, it's all about FPGA mining now.

Typical FPGAs offer significantly less performance than even a 2 generation old GPU.  FPGAs offer lower power consumption, but that's about it.

Actually it's quite the contrary which is the reason GPUs are out, with BFL you get 25Ghash for $15.3k, you will not be able to get that performance from GPUs for that money.
And I am not talking about second hand HD5870, I mean buying from the shop what is available, i.e. HD7970
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May 25, 2012, 12:46:02 PM
 #30

I have 10g/h and it cost me a bit less than $2000 buying up gpu's cheap. I don't have to pay for power or A/C I can run as many machines as I want in a shared datacenter for free. I paid my hardware off in a month of bitcoin mining a long time ago.

FPGA as it is now are a waste unless you have a ton of coins laying around ( that you mined or bought cheap )to waste on them. In a year or two the next killer thing will come around and with the reward halve most people who go to FPGA will never or just be getting to breakeven points.

A cheap ASIC may kill off gpu mining for the average miner who is doing it for profit. It won't stop the hobbyist or the free power people. FPGA wont make much of a dent.
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May 25, 2012, 01:28:26 PM
 #31

U can say that because u have not to pay attention towards electricity ....

Im getting rid of my gpus ... Cant afford running them in terms of cooling, loudness and the mentioned cost resulting from electricity.


Asics are far away and counting resale value as a factor, they have none ....

Fpgas are in the beginigs and some sort of risk that we (or i) have to take when i want to continue with bitcoin. Glbse is only beta an u never know what might happen to them ....

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May 25, 2012, 01:38:40 PM
 #32

I have 10g/h and it cost me a bit less than $2000 buying up gpu's cheap. I don't have to pay for power or A/C I can run as many machines as I want in a shared datacenter for free. I paid my hardware off in a month of bitcoin mining a long time ago.
Free datacenter space? Sign me up!
P.S., it needs to be PCI compliant, minimum, and N+1 everything.

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May 25, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
 #33

I could see ASICs one day becoming crazy popular, but there'd have to be a large amount of time and $ to go into devolopment, and who's gonna front that?

I see FPGAs as a stepping stone. I do think they're awesome in turns of MH/Watt, but not in MH/$.

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May 25, 2012, 01:44:16 PM
 #34

GPU's have there place if you can buy them cheap enough and are in an area where electricity is also cheap.
FPGA's and similar custom setup's are better for those were the above aren't true.

Right now, both have there place. GPU's can occasionally be bought real cheap, which makes up for the some of their disadvantages.
There is also the advantage of dual-purposing them for gaming/work/entertainment etc. I too own such a setup, but only 1. The rest will all be FPGA's.

In most places in the UK, electricity prices are pretty high compared to most places in the USA (and many other European countries for that matter) for example, the same is true for buying the parts themselves... expensive if you want them new. Never had much luck with working the secondary markets in the UK without being screwed somehow sometimes.

So for many FPGA owners (or soon to be) it is a no brainer. Sure it might seem expensive, when it has no resell value, but I'll be "sitting pretty" knowing those bad boys in the corner aren't costing me an arm and a leg in electricity. After they make their money back and it's all profit, why would anyone care if you can resell them. I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of someone who had been running their card 24/7 and it was on it's last legs, apart from the fact it's value would of massively dropped and you'll be unlikely to get much for it anyway.
Long term running costs were my bigger priority when I choose to get into bitcoin mining. Can't say the same if I'd just spent £1000 on GPU's, since even the most optimal GPU will cost me about 8 times in electricity than a comparable FPGA assuming I did my math right.

In the UK I'm looking at:
£350 for a 7970 - 550-600 Mhash/s

Or I can go with a
£440 for a quad spartan-6 FPGA - 800+ Mhash/s.

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May 25, 2012, 01:51:00 PM
 #35

Actually it's quite the contrary which is the reason GPUs are out, with BFL you get 25Ghash for $15.3k, you will not be able to get that performance from GPUs for that money.
And I am not talking about second hand HD5870, I mean buying from the shop what is available, i.e. HD7970

4x7970 system = ~$2000. Generates ~2800 MH/s. Would need about 9 of these systems to make 25GH/s. Total cost = $18k. After a year of mining, I could still sell my 36 7970s for ~$300 each for ~$11k recovered.


Thus you are really comparing the total cost of owning:

25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $8000.

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

I dont know about you but at this point the risk in bitcoin going belly-up and FPGAs being worthless is too high for me.

I would consider FPGAs only after the reward halving and watching if the market responds appropriately. Even then it would take a process advantage (ie. the first good 28 nm FPGA) before I buy in.

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May 25, 2012, 02:14:24 PM
 #36

4x7970 system = ~$2000. Generates ~2800 MH/s. Would need about 9 of these systems to make 25GH/s. Total cost = $18k. After a year of mining, I could still sell my 36 7970s for ~$300 each for ~$11k recovered.


Thus you are really comparing the total cost of owning:

25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $8000.

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

I dont know about you but at this point the risk in bitcoin going belly-up and FPGAs being worthless is too high for me.

I would consider FPGAs only after the reward halving and watching if the market responds appropriately. Even then it would take a process advantage (ie. the first good 28 nm FPGA) before I buy in.

You forgot the SMALL factor of paying for electricity of 9 x quad 7970 Rigs for a straight year.

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May 25, 2012, 02:21:42 PM
 #37

4x7970 system = ~$2000. Generates ~2800 MH/s. Would need about 9 of these systems to make 25GH/s. Total cost = $18k. After a year of mining, I could still sell my 36 7970s for ~$300 each for ~$11k recovered.


Thus you are really comparing the total cost of owning:

25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $8000.

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

I dont know about you but at this point the risk in bitcoin going belly-up and FPGAs being worthless is too high for me.

I would consider FPGAs only after the reward halving and watching if the market responds appropriately. Even then it would take a process advantage (ie. the first good 28 nm FPGA) before I buy in.

You forgot the SMALL factor of paying for electricity of 9 x quad 7970 Rigs for a straight year.

at 700MH/s for each card, you're not talking about a lot of undervolting. Each of those cards will pull ~250Watt at those speeds, is that correct? That means prolly around 1.2KW for each rig?

1.2KW * 9 rigs = 10.8KW
10.8KW * 24 hours in day = 259.2 KWh
259.2KWh * 11cents/KWh = 28.51 $ a day
$28 * 365 days = 10,406 USD.

Even if you have "free electicity", someone is paying that 10k in electricity costs...

Add that to your initial comparison:
25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $18000. -correction added

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

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May 25, 2012, 02:26:15 PM
 #38

Actually it's quite the contrary which is the reason GPUs are out, with BFL you get 25Ghash for $15.3k, you will not be able to get that performance from GPUs for that money.
And I am not talking about second hand HD5870, I mean buying from the shop what is available, i.e. HD7970

4x7970 system = ~$2000. Generates ~2800 MH/s. Would need about 9 of these systems to make 25GH/s. Total cost = $18k. After a year of mining, I could still sell my 36 7970s for ~$300 each for ~$11k recovered.


Thus you are really comparing the total cost of owning:

25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $8000.

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

I dont know about you but at this point the risk in bitcoin going belly-up and FPGAs being worthless is too high for me.

I would consider FPGAs only after the reward halving and watching if the market responds appropriately. Even then it would take a process advantage (ie. the first good 28 nm FPGA) before I buy in.

Regarding this post, it is very misleading:

1. Assuming you buy a HD7970 at $500 each, it does not mean 4 GPUs = $2000. At best you need a $250 motherboard + $100 of other components, and a $250 power supply to run 4 GPUs per system, so 4 GPUs become more like $2600. So for hardware alone at $15300 you are looking at most 24 GPUs which will give just under 17GH/s assuming you overclock them a bit, which bring to problems 2 ...

2. With that many GPUs you are looking at atleast 6000watts of heat, so you will have to allocate an entire room and maybe install an air conditioning unit, which raises the cost even higher. Personally I don't have a spare room in London, if I did I could rent it out for atleast $140 per week.

3. With 6000 watts power consumption you really need free electricity to make any decent profit, if any profit at all, assuming your sockets can handle that much load.

Now Minirig has no real problems except the waiting time, other than that just plug it in and forget.
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May 25, 2012, 02:36:56 PM
 #39

4x7970 system = ~$2000. Generates ~2800 MH/s. Would need about 9 of these systems to make 25GH/s. Total cost = $18k. After a year of mining, I could still sell my 36 7970s for ~$300 each for ~$11k recovered.


Thus you are really comparing the total cost of owning:

25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $8000.

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

I dont know about you but at this point the risk in bitcoin going belly-up and FPGAs being worthless is too high for me.

I would consider FPGAs only after the reward halving and watching if the market responds appropriately. Even then it would take a process advantage (ie. the first good 28 nm FPGA) before I buy in.

You forgot the SMALL factor of paying for electricity of 9 x quad 7970 Rigs for a straight year.

Kinda hard to ignore ~9000 Watts (Just the GPU's) because lets face it if you quoted overclocked MH/s ratings for those cards, it's going to be running hot and close to 250w per card, especially when you take into account PSU efficiency.
At UK rates, that many GPU's would cost me about £0.90 per hour. Holy crap on a stick, it ends up costing abit under £8000 for a year of electricity just on the GPU, not counting the other parts. That would not work out very well here to your profit margin.
Especially since you still got to take into account massive amounts of heat and noise. About half of those 9000W will be heat, maybe more, so that is enough to heat the average 4 bedroom house in a really bad winter (-10c), you'd be baking cookies if you did this setup without a really good A/C (multiple). Something not so much of a concern with FPGA's, with energy consumption as much as 1/10th of GPU's. There is other parts to buy, but you could say the same about FPGA's.

Starting to wonder if I even did my sums right... but 24/7 operation of 9KW is kinda expected to cost a lot, when your paying 10 pence per kwh.

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May 25, 2012, 02:48:39 PM
 #40

4x7970 system = ~$2000. Generates ~2800 MH/s. Would need about 9 of these systems to make 25GH/s. Total cost = $18k. After a year of mining, I could still sell my 36 7970s for ~$300 each for ~$11k recovered.


Thus you are really comparing the total cost of owning:

25GH/s for a year in GPUs for $8000.

vs

25GH/s into perpetuity for $15300.

I dont know about you but at this point the risk in bitcoin going belly-up and FPGAs being worthless is too high for me.

I would consider FPGAs only after the reward halving and watching if the market responds appropriately. Even then it would take a process advantage (ie. the first good 28 nm FPGA) before I buy in.

You forgot the SMALL factor of paying for electricity of 9 x quad 7970 Rigs for a straight year.

Kinda hard to ignore ~9000 Watts (Just the GPU's) because lets face it if you quoted overclocked MH/s ratings for those cards, it's going to be running hot and close to 250w per card, especially when you take into account PSU efficiency.
At UK rates, that many GPU's would cost me about £0.90 per hour. Holy crap on a stick, it ends up costing abit under £8000 for a year of electricity just on the GPU, not counting the other parts. That would not work out very well here to your profit margin.
Especially since you still got to take into account massive amounts of heat and noise. About half of those 9000W will be heat, maybe more, so that is enough to heat the average 4 bedroom house in a really bad winter (-10c), you'd be baking cookies if you did this setup without a really good A/C (multiple). Something not so much of a concern with FPGA's, with energy consumption as much as 1/10th of GPU's. There is other parts to buy, but you could say the same about FPGA's.

Starting to wonder if I even did my sums right... but 24/7 operation of 9KW is kinda expected to cost a lot, when your paying 10 pence per kwh.

Ya I was trying to be sarcastic about the small part. In my post right after that one I ran the numbers, and got similar results as you.

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