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Question: Which of these bitcoin units do you NOT want to use?
µBTC / uBTC - 58 (35.2%)
bit - 47 (28.5%)
mBTC - 30 (18.2%)
satoshi - 26 (15.8%)
BTC - 4 (2.4%)
Total Voters: 101

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Author Topic: Which of these bitcoin units do you NOT want to use?  (Read 6884 times)
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October 30, 2014, 02:06:11 AM
 #61

vote for satoshi

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October 30, 2014, 02:16:49 AM
 #62

We want to get bitcoin out of the lab, so to speak. It needs to be much easier to use, and the question you should be asking, is not what do you want, but what makes better sense for the (hopefully) billions of future adopters, many of whom may be far less numerate than the average bitcoiner, and much more comfortable with a conventional 1,000.00 currency format.

Do you think 1,000.00 is easier to understand than 100,000 for the next billion adopters?
You seem to be missing the point (pun intended). 1,000.00 illustrates the format - comma separated and accurate to 2 decimal places, like dollars and cents. It's not just some random large number.
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October 30, 2014, 02:43:33 AM
 #63

We want to get bitcoin out of the lab, so to speak. It needs to be much easier to use, and the question you should be asking, is not what do you want, but what makes better sense for the (hopefully) billions of future adopters, many of whom may be far less numerate than the average bitcoiner, and much more comfortable with a conventional 1,000.00 currency format.

Do you think 1,000.00 is easier to understand than 100,000 for the next billion adopters?
You seem to be missing the point (pun intended). 1,000.00 illustrates the format - comma separated and accurate to 2 decimal places, like dollars and cents. It's not just some random large number.

+1

We need the XXXX.00 format.  That way someday 1 satoshi will psychological gravitate towards 0.01 USD.  Yes, this is a real thing.  At that point 1 Bitcoin will be worth 1 mill USD. 

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quanxinquanyi
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October 30, 2014, 04:10:23 AM
 #64

i don't want to use mbtc
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October 30, 2014, 10:18:27 AM
 #65

I like BTC, satoshi is my second favor
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October 30, 2014, 11:28:44 AM
 #66

i laugh at these crap polls.

as it is rather funny that there are over a dozen polls where people are trying very effort they can to denounce bits, yet if you check many many websites people are beginning to buy domains with bits in the name and not mbtc or ubtc..

take for instance
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitpay' or 'mbitpay'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitstamp' or 'mbitstamp'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitme' or 'mbitme'

i can name many many more websites with bit in the name but cant see any with ubit or mbit... thus its easy to see which direction merchants are choosing, as oppose to 'users' dramatic cries

top-down (micro/milli) only really works for a couple decimals. but the bottom up(satoshi/bits) works for smaller fractions of a bitcoin, which is more future proofing.

the whole point is not to say that when people start using bits measures, that 'bitcoin' wont be used ever again. the point is that instead of saying microbitcoins, we give names to multiples of satoshi's and they all work side by side

take for instance dollars.
no one uses deci dollars for the name of 10cents.

infact they used 'disme' at first with was latin and then shortened to dime later on for more of a relaxed and easier way to say it. so eventually mbit and ubit will be shortened out also to something 'common man' will use.

so instead of the confusion of the different between u and m.. purely for future proofs sake the measurement will be the metric of ubit.. (100 sat) and the common name will (by already viewing the use of) be bits.


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October 30, 2014, 12:28:51 PM
 #67

i don't want to use mbtc

me too. If you are a newbie, you have to look for what it meant. Bits is great.

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October 30, 2014, 02:49:47 PM
 #68

I dunno but I love to use btc
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October 30, 2014, 03:46:33 PM
 #69


take for instance
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitpay' or 'mbitpay'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitstamp' or 'mbitstamp'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitme' or 'mbitme'

i can name many many more websites with bit in the name but cant see any with ubit or mbit... thus its easy to see which direction merchants are choosing, as oppose to 'users' dramatic cries

Yes, but in those examples, "bit" is short for one Bitcoin, not a microBitcoin.

Quote
infact they used 'disme' at first with was latin and then shortened to dime later on for more of a relaxed and easier way to say it. so eventually mbit and ubit will be shortened out also to something 'common man' will use.

so instead of the confusion of the different between u and m.. purely for future proofs sake the measurement will be the metric of ubit.. (100 sat) and the common name will (by already viewing the use of) be bits.

The short forms for MilliBitcoins and MicroBitcoins are largely solved, but have little traction:
  • 1 mBTC (0.001BTC) is one Mill (or thousandth). This term is used for calculating property tax. Also used to refer to 1/1000th of an inch.
  • 1 µBTC (0.001mBTC) is one Mike (short for micro (metric prefix for one millionth)). (Common male name, sometimes used in the military as slang for minutes)

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October 30, 2014, 06:13:33 PM
 #70

as it is rather funny that there are over a dozen polls where people are trying very effort they can to denounce bits, yet if you check many many websites people are beginning to buy domains with bits in the name and not mbtc or ubtc..

take for instance
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitpay' or 'mbitpay'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitstamp' or 'mbitstamp'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitme' or 'mbitme'

i can name many many more websites with bit in the name but cant see any with ubit or mbit... thus its easy to see which direction merchants are choosing, as oppose to 'users' dramatic cries


I am fairly sure the part 'bit' in these names has not been chosen because it signifies 100 satoshis, but rather because it is the 3 first letters of the word bitcoin and also indication of some kind of cute humbleness. So it is a bit ( pun intended ) disingenious to count this as a vote for anything. If anything it is yet another indication of the biggest problem with 'bit' as how it has a million meanings in peoples heads and about 999999 of those are stronger than the meaning for 100 satoshis and it is an uphill battle all the way if anybody tries to change that situation.

I am not at all against the concept of taking 100 satoshis as an important unit. However the word 'bit' just sucks royally in this specific meaning and these polls are an indication that instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole maybe somebody could come up with a better name.

I believe the unit mBTC is in much heavier use and more importantly in spontanious use. It is however quite impossible trying to count exacly how much more heavier use for example because googling for the word 'bit' does not give you any useful links or linkcounts at all. By the way that is another indication that choosing the word 'bit' for anything significant is a poor one in this age when we should think about search engine behaviour as an quite important argument as well.

Try for example google for 'USD/bit' and tell me what you can find when starting from google as the exchange ratio between USD and 'bit's. That should be an easy task if 'bit' is in such wide use as you say in popular bitcoin exchanges. Let's see how easy you find that job and whether you think choosing the word 'bit' seems sensible choise of as a keyword to you even after you have tried this googling task.  
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October 30, 2014, 07:07:15 PM
 #71

We want to get bitcoin out of the lab, so to speak. It needs to be much easier to use, and the question you should be asking, is not what do you want, but what makes better sense for the (hopefully) billions of future adopters, many of whom may be far less numerate than the average bitcoiner, and much more comfortable with a conventional 1,000.00 currency format.

Do you think 1,000.00 is easier to understand than 100,000 for the next billion adopters?
You seem to be missing the point (pun intended). 1,000.00 illustrates the format - comma separated and accurate to 2 decimal places, like dollars and cents. It's not just some random large number.

+1

We need the XXXX.00 format.  That way someday 1 satoshi will psychological gravitate towards 0.01 USD.  Yes, this is a real thing.  At that point 1 Bitcoin will be worth 1 mill USD.  

Nice pun. Wink

But I don't miss the (decimal) point. And the Japanese population (126 million people) don't miss it either. The Yen is doing fine without any decimal places / decimal point.


Anyhow, neither of you two answered my question: Do you think introducing a decimal point makes the currency any easier to use (compared to plain integers)?
Because ease of use should be our goal here, isn't it?



i laugh at these crap polls.

as it is rather funny that there are over a dozen polls where people are trying very effort they can to denounce bits, yet if you check many many websites people are beginning to buy domains with bits in the name and not mbtc or ubtc..

You totally missed the point of this poll: There was no intention to denounce anything.

The basic idea was to ask a separate yes/no question for each unit, as opposed to just asking for the favourite option as all previous polls did.
Obviously, not everyone's favourite option can be realised, so looking for secondary choices can help reach consensus.

The only reason why the poll was negatively worded ("...do you NOT want..."), was to incentivise participants to agree with as many units as possible by asking them to actively check the box for every unit they dislike.
This should make it easier to find consensus.


top-down (micro/milli) only really works for a couple decimals. but the bottom up(satoshi/bits) works for smaller fractions of a bitcoin, which is more future proofing.

100% agreed.

A bottom-up system like sat/ksat/Msat is much better than the top-down approach BTC/mBTC/µBTC.
As said above, multiples are more intuitive than fractions.


so instead of the confusion of the different between u and m.. purely for future proofs sake the measurement will be the metric of ubit.. (100 sat) and the common name will (by already viewing the use of) be bits.

I don't see a need to have a nickname for 100 sats.

Do we have a nickname for 100 dollars? No, or at least, not that popular.
Do we have a nickname for 1000 dollars? Yes, 1000 dollars = 1 grand.

So when giving nicknames to multiples of satoshi, it appears to me that it is a better fit to go for 1000 sats, rather than 100 sats, for example:

1000 dollars = 1 grand
1000 satoshis = 1 grantoshi
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October 31, 2014, 02:57:31 AM
 #72

We want to get bitcoin out of the lab, so to speak. It needs to be much easier to use, and the question you should be asking, is not what do you want, but what makes better sense for the (hopefully) billions of future adopters, many of whom may be far less numerate than the average bitcoiner, and much more comfortable with a conventional 1,000.00 currency format.

Do you think 1,000.00 is easier to understand than 100,000 for the next billion adopters?
You seem to be missing the point (pun intended). 1,000.00 illustrates the format - comma separated and accurate to 2 decimal places, like dollars and cents. It's not just some random large number.

+1

We need the XXXX.00 format.  That way someday 1 satoshi will psychological gravitate towards 0.01 USD.  Yes, this is a real thing.  At that point 1 Bitcoin will be worth 1 mill USD.  

Nice pun. Wink

But I don't miss the (decimal) point. And the Japanese population (126 million people) don't miss it either. The Yen is doing fine without any decimal places / decimal point.


Anyhow, neither of you two answered my question: Do you think introducing a decimal point makes the currency any easier to use (compared to plain integers)?
Because ease of use should be our goal here, isn't it?



i laugh at these crap polls.

as it is rather funny that there are over a dozen polls where people are trying very effort they can to denounce bits, yet if you check many many websites people are beginning to buy domains with bits in the name and not mbtc or ubtc..

You totally missed the point of this poll: There was no intention to denounce anything.

The basic idea was to ask a separate yes/no question for each unit, as opposed to just asking for the favourite option as all previous polls did.
Obviously, not everyone's favourite option can be realised, so looking for secondary choices can help reach consensus.

The only reason why the poll was negatively worded ("...do you NOT want..."), was to incentivise participants to agree with as many units as possible by asking them to actively check the box for every unit they dislike.
This should make it easier to find consensus.


top-down (micro/milli) only really works for a couple decimals. but the bottom up(satoshi/bits) works for smaller fractions of a bitcoin, which is more future proofing.

100% agreed.

A bottom-up system like sat/ksat/Msat is much better than the top-down approach BTC/mBTC/µBTC.
As said above, multiples are more intuitive than fractions.


so instead of the confusion of the different between u and m.. purely for future proofs sake the measurement will be the metric of ubit.. (100 sat) and the common name will (by already viewing the use of) be bits.

I don't see a need to have a nickname for 100 sats.

Do we have a nickname for 100 dollars? No, or at least, not that popular.
Do we have a nickname for 1000 dollars? Yes, 1000 dollars = 1 grand.

So when giving nicknames to multiples of satoshi, it appears to me that it is a better fit to go for 1000 sats, rather than 100 sats, for example:

1000 dollars = 1 grand
1000 satoshis = 1 grantoshi

The Japanese analogy is a good one, because it reminds me of when WW2 was over, a few Japanese refused to believe they had lost and kept on fighting, just as you are clutching at your belief, (good on you), but it is clear from signals in the wider community that you are fighting for a lost cause. That's not to say you can't call it whatever you like, just don't think the majority will be there with you.

On usability, if you want to argue that, put up some use cases to demonstrate your point.


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October 31, 2014, 03:03:08 AM
 #73

I like satoshi.
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October 31, 2014, 04:07:38 AM
 #74

The Japanese analogy is a good one, because it reminds me of when WW2 was over, a few Japanese refused to believe they had lost and kept on fighting, just as you are clutching at your belief, (good on you), but it is clear from signals in the wider community that you are fighting for a lost cause. That's not to say you can't call it whatever you like, just don't think the majority will be there with you.

The purpose of language is to be understood. I need to use vocabulary that is accepted by the largest percentage of the community.

Given the poll results, "bit" is okay with ~55%, "satoshi" is okay with ~75%. To get these numbers you just compare the total number of participants with how many of them did not click the respective checkbox.

If this trend ever reverses, then I will immediately switch to "bit". But right now I see no reason to do so.


On usability, if you want to argue that, put up some use cases to demonstrate your point.

My use case is explaining Bitcoin to newbies:

With satoshis, all I need to explain is that 100 million satoshis = 1 bitcoin.

With bits, I need to explain that...
  • ...100 satoshis = 1 bit, and...
  • ...1 million bits = 1 bitcoin.

I very much care about reducing complexity from my website, so every bit matters.
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October 31, 2014, 06:11:36 AM
 #75

The Japanese analogy is a good one, because it reminds me of when WW2 was over, a few Japanese refused to believe they had lost and kept on fighting, just as you are clutching at your belief, (good on you), but it is clear from signals in the wider community that you are fighting for a lost cause. That's not to say you can't call it whatever you like, just don't think the majority will be there with you.

The purpose of language is to be understood. I need to use vocabulary that is accepted by the largest percentage of the community.

Given the poll results, "bit" is okay with ~55%, "satoshi" is okay with ~75%. To get these numbers you just compare the total number of participants with how many of them did not click the respective checkbox.

If this trend ever reverses, then I will immediately switch to "bit". But right now I see no reason to do so.


On usability, if you want to argue that, put up some use cases to demonstrate your point.

My use case is explaining Bitcoin to newbies:

With satoshis, all I need to explain is that 100 million satoshis = 1 bitcoin.

With bits, I need to explain that...
  • ...100 satoshis = 1 bit, and...
  • ...1 million bits = 1 bitcoin.

I very much care about reducing complexity from my website, so every bit matters.
oops I diverged again into the bigger picture, not specific to your website/faucet, I take it all back.
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November 02, 2014, 06:51:59 PM
 #76

Satoshis and Bitcoins for me.
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November 03, 2014, 12:33:17 AM
 #77

Do you think introducing a decimal point makes the currency any easier to use (compared to plain integers)?
Because ease of use should be our goal here, isn't it?
On usability, if you want to argue that, put up some use cases to demonstrate your point.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l0u3g/just_joined_the_21_million_club_and_it_feels_good/clqeqxn

Roll Eyes
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November 03, 2014, 09:13:54 AM
 #78

Do you think introducing a decimal point makes the currency any easier to use (compared to plain integers)?
Because ease of use should be our goal here, isn't it?
On usability, if you want to argue that, put up some use cases to demonstrate your point.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l0u3g/just_joined_the_21_million_club_and_it_feels_good/clqeqxn

Roll Eyes
That guy says "I thought 1 bit = 1 satoshi. I guess i stand corrected" so you could equally argue satoshis were the problem.
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November 03, 2014, 10:53:23 AM
 #79

That guy says "I thought 1 bit = 1 satoshi. I guess i stand corrected" so you could equally argue satoshis were the problem.

Not at all.  "satoshi" is a much better established term than "bit" in this context.  When people want to refer to an amount of bitcoin in a nomenclature thread they almost invariably use "BTC" or "satoshis" for simplicity/clarity.  People argue about the name to give "0.000 001 BTC" or "100 satoshis".  Also, notice the order used here: "1 bit = 1 satoshi", not "1 satoshi = 1 bit".

"satoshi" was not pushed in the way that "bit" was.  The first suggestion that "satoshi" might refer to 0.000 000 01 BTC was made over 3 years ago and slowly and naturally became adopted because it was a useful term which resonated with those that would use it.  There were no leagues of "satoshis" threads where people denounced the term, came up with various alternatives.  There was no crowd of SI proponents claiming "10 nans" to be superior.

A few months later, the first suggestion that the term "Bit" might represent 1 µBTC was made.  In this case, the term naturally died out, only to be resurrected by an evangelical Reddit thread and an advertising campaign launched by a small number of (either linguistically foolish or intentionally destructive) people.  Rather than the gradual emergence of a new useful term brought about by need, we've been treated to a year of flamewars, causing many to avoid the 100-satoshi unit altogether.

"satoshi" is to "bits" as free-market is to central planning or evolution is to intelligent design.  Arguing a peership between the two is just laughable.
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November 03, 2014, 11:05:09 AM
 #80

That guy says "I thought 1 bit = 1 satoshi. I guess i stand corrected" so you could equally argue satoshis were the problem.

Except that satoshis are the smallest denomination and thus will unavoidably appear in the system.

One of the two units (bit/satoshi) is causing confusion, but we can't remove satoshi because the smallest denomination needs to have a name; "bit", on the other hand, is superfluous.


Edit: Oops, I didn't notice teukon's reply. It's much better.
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