Is BFL using BitPay for money laundering purposes good for advancing Bitcoin?

[ANTIcentralized]

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.  

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up.  Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

I agree. It would be wrong to not accept bitcoin just because it is "stolen" as bitcoin is fungible and one particular input is no different then another one (assuming they are both spendable).

I would say this very well could be the FTC cashing out the bitcoin owned by BFL in order to repay their customers, as I would find it unlikely that the FTC would allow refunds in terms of bitcoin

[1713567090]

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[Bicknellski]

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.  

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up.  Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?

Lol what do you need a company or government looking over your transactions to make sure they are ok before they give you what is yours?

BitPay supposed to save the day for y'all and steal the Bitcoins back?

Wouldn't anything over 10k USD give Bitpay pause given the regulatory climate as well as the nature of the company involed. Bitpay was well aware of problems and concerns customers had with fraud from BFL considering they shared a booth at conferences.

[odolvlobo]

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

[Gleb Gamow]

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.  

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up.  Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?

Lol what do you need a company or government looking over your transactions to make sure they are ok before they give you what is yours?

BitPay supposed to save the day for y'all and steal the Bitcoins back?

Wouldn't anything over 10k USD give Bitpay pause given the regulatory climate as well as the nature of the company involed. Bitpay was well aware of problems and concerns customers had with fraud from BFL considering they shared a booth at conferences.

That's right! You or I go and try purchasing an automobile priced over $9,999.99 USD and see what forms are filled out prior to us being allowed to drive it off the lot.

I'm pretty sure that papers would have had to be filed for each amount over $10K transferred to BFL's bank especially since KYC is in place.

But, again, what BFL did was worse, for they put BitPay in jeopardy by pretending to submit payment for products, when in really BFL was using BitPay as their private exchange.

Now, the three-letter authorities will be getting out their microscopes to look further into BFL's affairs, along with the affairs of BitPay, CoinWare, Netsolus, NimbusMining, LiquidBits, HashTrade, Jeff Ownby, Greg (Gregory) Bachrach, Josh Zerlan (because of his fully paid for half-million-dollar home via BTC), Quentin Page, Remy and Jean-Mark Jacobson, James Gibson, and a few more. All because Sonny Vleisides was "on a new track now" with his past behind him. I say he tried to repeat his past several fold... But failed big time, this time bringing down more folks with this resent fall.

#ASKFTC

[Bicknellski]

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

Hypothetical Example.

I'm a drug dealer with illegal drug revenue denominated in BTC worth 1 million dollars. I have another partner pretend to send this same BTC to my Bitpay account as payment for imaginary goods. I then convert those BTC with Bitpays knowledge and cash out that million to a bank account in USD.

Nothing illegal right?

Bitpay, BFL and HashTrade will all have to explain their roles. Bitpay has a very close relationship with BFL. With laptops now in FTC possesion any emails will likely be available to the Feds. I suspect BitPay should get a lawyer asap regarding this matter as a precaution.

If they did nothing wrong they would be prudent to immediately distance their company from BFL and provide their lawyers with all the emails, communication and get out front of this problem. Better help the FTC wherever possible so as to avoid more digging in their dog patch.

[Gleb Gamow]

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

I stand corrected: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=841416

#ASKFTC

PS: Feel free to open this honest nest a little wider with you wonderful insight.

[Gleb Gamow]

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

Example.

Im a drug dealer with 1 million dollars of BTC. I have another partner pretend to send this same BTC to my Bitpay account as payment for imaginary goods. I then convert those BTC with Bitpays knowledge and cash out that million to a bank account in USD.


Nothing illegal right?

Bitpay, BFL and HashTrade will all have to explain their roles. Bitpay has a very close relationship with BFL. With laptops now in FTC possesion any emails will likely be available to the Feds. I suspect BitPay should get a lawyer asap regarding this matter as a precaution.

I think I did a better job, bud: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=841416 

[Bicknellski]

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

Example.

Im a drug dealer with 1 million dollars of BTC. I have another partner pretend to send this same BTC to my Bitpay account as payment for imaginary goods. I then convert those BTC with Bitpays knowledge and cash out that million to a bank account in USD.


Nothing illegal right?

Bitpay, BFL and HashTrade will all have to explain their roles. Bitpay has a very close relationship with BFL. With laptops now in FTC possesion any emails will likely be available to the Feds. I suspect BitPay should get a lawyer asap regarding this matter as a precaution.

I think I did a better job, bud: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=841416 

Obviously not enough if you can't convert readers to your narrative.

[Gleb Gamow]

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

Example.

Im a drug dealer with 1 million dollars of BTC. I have another partner pretend to send this same BTC to my Bitpay account as payment for imaginary goods. I then convert those BTC with Bitpays knowledge and cash out that million to a bank account in USD.


Nothing illegal right?

Bitpay, BFL and HashTrade will all have to explain their roles. Bitpay has a very close relationship with BFL. With laptops now in FTC possesion any emails will likely be available to the Feds. I suspect BitPay should get a lawyer asap regarding this matter as a precaution.

I think I did a better job, bud: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=841416 

Obviously not enough if you can't convert readers to your narrative.

You got me on that one. Excuse me while I pick up my epee and try again. 

[Bicknellski]

Money Laundering a Hypothetical Guide Part 1: The Basics

Step 1.  “Placement” (also known as) Deposit your cash in a bank.

Fact: BFL sends 1 million to itself disguised as purchase from HashTrade. Converts the BTC through BitPay to their own accounts as USD.

Next to how you made your money, this is the riskiest phase of the laundering process. To prevent banks from reporting you to the government, keep cash deposits to well below $10,000 and spread it out over 160 accounts in 20 or more banks.

Conclusion: BFL failed at this step miserably.


Step 2. “Layering” (also known as) Move your money around like crazy.

Fact: BFL was layering see expense accounts of BFL executives. Respin boards, buying houses, cars etc as well as over paying for engineering of miners to their 'partners' in the scam. Exchange currencies, buy luxury goods, spends on rents for buildings, spas and burn in rooms or off site server locations.

This is the trickiest and possibly most fun stage of the laundering process. Try changing currencies with 20%. Buying expensive items like houses, cars, and art work with 30%. Investing in legitimate businesses with the final 50%. The point is to make the original dirty money impossible to trace.

Conclusion: Whoops failure too slow and not diversified enough to hide it. FTC has evidence after seizures of laptops etc.


Step 3.  Integration. Your 1 million dollars should look like it came back to you as legit legal transaction.

Fact: Whoops Gleb found out it wasn't pretty easily. Now it is clear HashTrade and BFL are laundering the BTC.

Follow up questions:

Was BitPay involved directly with this scheme and did they have full knowledge?
Did BFL do this BEFORE they hired the accountant?
I wonder what the accountant they hired had to say about it?

[Gleb Gamow]

Money Laundering a Hypothetical Guide Part 1: The Basics

Wow! That truly does nail it. And only at a cost of 20%. Now, imagine doing the same thing but incorporate Bitcoin. I know it's a stretch, but is it possible to someway, somehow recoup that 20% or even make a profit via laundering money via using Bitcoin as one of the steps?

Apologies for the crazy question.

#ASKFTC

[Bicknellski]

Money Laundering a Hypothetical Guide Part 1: The Basics

Wow! That truly does nail it. And only at a cost of 20%. Now, imagine doing the same thing but incorporate Bitcoin. I know it's a stretch, but is it possible to someway, somehow recoup that 20% or even make a profit via laundering money via using Bitcoin as one of the steps?

Apologies for the crazy question.

#ASKFTC

Using BTC... you could cut out a lot of the need to bribe / fees etc.

I think BFL was hoping no one would track this Gleb. But sticking 1 million in like that was the DUMBEST move possible. Red Flags everywhere. I think they got scared and started looking for ways to get the money hidden.

Look at what was going on with BFL at the time.

1. Lawsuits started coming.
2. DA was looking at them.
3. Houses were being bought.
4. No accountant to help them keep things "hidden" or at least be less conspicuous. Look at the accountant talking on Skype particularly about keep the amounts down.
5. Personal loans from BFL.
6. Personal spending on company credit cards.
7. Extensive overseas trips by BFL even though there no real sales being generated after the 65nm debacle.
8. Expense accounts in BTC for major members of the team.
9. Extensive adverting campaigns.
10. Extensive booth purchases for conferences where they were paying a high premium to be the only mining company at a show.

[Gleb Gamow]

Money Laundering a Hypothetical Guide Part 1: The Basics

Wow! That truly does nail it. And only at a cost of 20%. Now, imagine doing the same thing but incorporate Bitcoin. I know it's a stretch, but is it possible to someway, somehow recoup that 20% or even make a profit via laundering money via using Bitcoin as one of the steps?

Apologies for the crazy question.

#ASKFTC

Using BTC... you could cut out a lot of the need to bribe / fees etc.

I think BFL was hoping no one would track this Gleb. But sticking 1 million in like that was the DUMBEST move possible. Red Flags everywhere. I think they got scared and started looking for ways to get the money hidden.

Look at what was going on with BFL at the time.

1. Lawsuits started coming.
2. DA was looking at them.
3. Houses were being bought.
4. No accountant to help them keep things "hidden" or at least be less conspicuous. Look at the accountant talking on Skype particularly about keep the amounts down.
5. Personal loans from BFL.
6. Personal spending on company credit cards.
7. Extensive overseas trips by BFL even though there no real sales being generated after the 65nm debacle.
8. Expense accounts in BTC for major members of the team.
9. Extensive adverting campaigns.
10. Extensive booth purchases for conferences where they were paying a high premium to be the only mining company at a show.

Sonny Vleisides was brazen prior to the infamous $1M USD transaction, becoming even more brazen afterwards all the way up to less than 24 hours prior to the raid by the FTC.

Ironically, Josh nor SLok nor Bruce have taken the time to negate my position. It's almost like I convince them it's true, hence why bother. Besides, I'm just a drama queen that steals barn wood at night to augment what I steal from Bitcoin 100 and the cheap hardware I amass due to getting better queue positions thanks to my vouching efforts.

#ASKFTC

[Bicknellski]

[11/12/2013 1:04:32 PM] Josh Zerlan: Once or twice, ok, people can live with that...but now it's just the way BFL is. We simply don't deliver when we say we will.

Money Laundering a Hypothetical Guide Part 1: The Basics

Wow! That truly does nail it. And only at a cost of 20%. Now, imagine doing the same thing but incorporate Bitcoin. I know it's a stretch, but is it possible to someway, somehow recoup that 20% or even make a profit via laundering money via using Bitcoin as one of the steps?

Apologies for the crazy question.

#ASKFTC

Using BTC... you could cut out a lot of the need to bribe / fees etc.

I think BFL was hoping no one would track this Gleb. But sticking 1 million in like that was the DUMBEST move possible. Red Flags everywhere. I think they got scared and started looking for ways to get the money hidden.

Look at what was going on with BFL at the time.

1. Lawsuits started coming.
2. DA was looking at them.
3. Houses were being bought.
4. No accountant to help them keep things "hidden" or at least be less conspicuous. Look at the accountant talking on Skype particularly about keep the amounts down.
5. Personal loans from BFL.
6. Personal spending on company credit cards.
7. Extensive overseas trips by BFL even though there no real sales being generated after the 65nm debacle.
8. Expense accounts in BTC for major members of the team.
9. Extensive adverting campaigns.
10. Extensive booth purchases for conferences where they were paying a high premium to be the only mining company at a show.

Sonny Vleisides was brazen prior to the infamous $1M USD transaction, becoming even more brazen afterwards all the way up to less than 24 hours prior to the raid by the FTC.

Ironically, Josh nor SLok nor Bruce have taken the time to negate my position. It's almost like I convince them it's true, hence why bother. Besides, I'm just a drama queen that steals barn wood at night to augment what I steal from Bitcoin 100 and the cheap hardware I amass due to getting better queue positions thanks to my vouching efforts.

#ASKFTC

[Gleb Gamow]

[11/12/2013 1:04:32 PM] Josh Zerlan: Once or twice, ok, people can live with that...but now it's just the way BFL is. We simply don't deliver when we say we will.

Money Laundering a Hypothetical Guide Part 1: The Basics

Wow! That truly does nail it. And only at a cost of 20%. Now, imagine doing the same thing but incorporate Bitcoin. I know it's a stretch, but is it possible to someway, somehow recoup that 20% or even make a profit via laundering money via using Bitcoin as one of the steps?

Apologies for the crazy question.

#ASKFTC

Using BTC... you could cut out a lot of the need to bribe / fees etc.

I think BFL was hoping no one would track this Gleb. But sticking 1 million in like that was the DUMBEST move possible. Red Flags everywhere. I think they got scared and started looking for ways to get the money hidden.

Look at what was going on with BFL at the time.

1. Lawsuits started coming.
2. DA was looking at them.
3. Houses were being bought.
4. No accountant to help them keep things "hidden" or at least be less conspicuous. Look at the accountant talking on Skype particularly about keep the amounts down.
5. Personal loans from BFL.
6. Personal spending on company credit cards.
7. Extensive overseas trips by BFL even though there no real sales being generated after the 65nm debacle.
8. Expense accounts in BTC for major members of the team.
9. Extensive adverting campaigns.
10. Extensive booth purchases for conferences where they were paying a high premium to be the only mining company at a show.

Sonny Vleisides was brazen prior to the infamous $1M USD transaction, becoming even more brazen afterwards all the way up to less than 24 hours prior to the raid by the FTC.

Ironically, Josh nor SLok nor Bruce have taken the time to negate my position. It's almost like I convince them it's true, hence why bother. Besides, I'm just a drama queen that steals barn wood at night to augment what I steal from Bitcoin 100 and the cheap hardware I amass due to getting better queue positions thanks to my vouching efforts.

#ASKFTC

Here's the correct link: http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1306470/gov-uscourts-mowd-117531-42-7.pdf

[11/12/2013 1:03:24 PM] Josh Zerlan: I said at the time we take what he tells us and
double it
[11/12/2013 1:03:30 PM] Josh Zerlan: That would have put us right around November.
[11/12/2013 1:04:04 PM] Josh Zerlan: I realize marketing that might be problematic,
but I'm not so sure we aren't taking more of a beating due to failed promises for
delivery.
[11/12/2013 1:04:32 PM] Josh Zerlan: Once or twice, ok, people can live with that...
but now it's just the way BFL is. We simply don't deliver when we say we will.
[11/12/2013 1:06:43 PM] Josh Zerlan: So what do we want to say publicaly?
[11/12/2013 1:08:47 PM] Josh Zerlan: Here's my thought, something like this:
[11/12/2013 1:09:58 PM] Josh Zerlan: Unfortunately, there has been a delay at the
foundry. We are currently scheduled to get our first chips from the foundry around
the 2nd of January, which pushes us out to the end of January at the very earliest
for our first products to ship. As more information becomes availble, I will
continue to update.

That's how a liar lies. Then he goes out to inform others that others are liars and not he.

Poor Bruno... guess I hit a nerve with my last post.  Sorry bud!  Didn't mean to describe your life so exactly.

Huh... EMC is still a-runnin'...  Guess your claim turned out to be yet another lie.

THIS FUCKER IS GOING DOWN!

#ASKFTC

[bigasic]

i have never done this, but i do know of other miners that do this on a regular basis. So, im not shocked at all that this has happened.

[Gleb Gamow]

i have never done this, but i do know of other miners that do this on a regular basis. So, im not shocked at all that this has happened.

To be honest, I've known that it's been happening for over a year now, having discussed it with fellow bitcoiners at conferences.

[Gleb Gamow]

This is weird! According to this transaction, BitPay is using BitStamp to ??: https://blockchain.info/tx/baaa36348f7228ec46570ead17f764af133dd5a7cd07c67dd14e31124017ec2f

http://www.walletexplorer.com/address/1L7T67j4um5BTFpzvyqd3ShqEBDruZnEW4 ---> http://www.walletexplorer.com/address/15QTGigFgnMpqcg5tQwBszQ94me98ZTVkr

BitPay has been using BitStamp since its inception.  I thought that was common knowledge.  Same with Coinbase.

Why is nobody paying any attention to this? This could be VERY bad for the bitcoin economy if Bitpay was aware that BFL was using them as an exchange. Am I the only one who realizes what the OP has discovered?

But, BitPay is an exchange.  It's not some new discovery, it's been an exchange for a while. 

I need to see proof of that, bud.

[Gleb Gamow]

This is weird! According to this transaction, BitPay is using BitStamp to ??: https://blockchain.info/tx/baaa36348f7228ec46570ead17f764af133dd5a7cd07c67dd14e31124017ec2f

http://www.walletexplorer.com/address/1L7T67j4um5BTFpzvyqd3ShqEBDruZnEW4 ---> http://www.walletexplorer.com/address/15QTGigFgnMpqcg5tQwBszQ94me98ZTVkr

BitPay has been using BitStamp since its inception.  I thought that was common knowledge.  Same with Coinbase.

Why is nobody paying any attention to this? This could be VERY bad for the bitcoin economy if Bitpay was aware that BFL was using them as an exchange. Am I the only one who realizes what the OP has discovered?

But, BitPay is an exchange.  It's not some new discovery, it's been an exchange for a while. 

I need to see proof of that, bud.

So far, it hasn't been proven that BitPay is an exchange, nor has BitPay responded to a myriad of emails pertaining to this issue. Still, I like these these guys, but this is so fuckin' sad! 

[hyphymikey]

Bitpay is a payment processor. Someone PAID BFL and bitpay PROCESSED the payment, in which BFL received cash (which was supposed to be used to make products, but thats not bitpays business).

Nothing to see here folks.