[Netherlands christmas, sinter klaas helper] Zwarte Piet visits london

[elasticband]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLBxb29maw

whats your views on Zwarte Piet?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

[poisenrang]

my views on the helper of '''sinter klaas'' are pretty bad although i live in holland myself, and ive been having this tradition for over 20 years.

Its slavery how they are showing it in the video you are posting, but in the netherlands its just happiness.

[elasticband]

zwarte piet came at a point just after slavery was outlawed throughout colonies of the empire, the sinterklass character was more of a bogyman type, who would come and take children who were bad away to Spain( Netherlands enemy). the Zwarte piet character was a helper for this bogyman type, piet would climb down the chimneys of the bad kids and take them away. The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad. The clothes, black face, big red lips and gold earrings, these ware all typical depictions of the stereotypes of the time.
Yes things have changed over time and the story and been bent to hide certain aspects but this zwarte piet character was still conceived at a point where racism was rife in western cultures.......

[Raw-H]

zwarte piet came at a point just after slavery was outlawed throughout colonies of the empire, the sinterklass character was more of a bogyman type, who would come and take children who were bad away to Spain( Netherlands enemy). the Zwarte piet character was a helper for this bogyman type, piet would climb down the chimneys of the bad kids and take them away. The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad. The clothes, black face, big red lips and gold earrings, these ware all typical depictions of the stereotypes of the time.
Yes things have changed over time and the story and been bent to hide certain aspects but this zwarte piet character was still conceived at a point where racism was rife in western cultures.......

You are not from the Netherlands right?

I just checked your post history and it's filled with this nonsense. So i'm not gonna waste any more time on you, because you are the classic example of internettroll.

[elasticband]

zwarte piet came at a point just after slavery was outlawed throughout colonies of the empire, the sinterklass character was more of a bogyman type, who would come and take children who were bad away to Spain( Netherlands enemy). the Zwarte piet character was a helper for this bogyman type, piet would climb down the chimneys of the bad kids and take them away. The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad. The clothes, black face, big red lips and gold earrings, these ware all typical depictions of the stereotypes of the time.
Yes things have changed over time and the story and been bent to hide certain aspects but this zwarte piet character was still conceived at a point where racism was rife in western cultures.......

You are not from the Netherlands right?

I just checked your post history and it's filled with this nonsense. So i'm not gonna waste any more time on you, because you are the classic example of internettroll.

I live in the Netherlands, yes. I don't think you will really see any nonsense pertaining to zwarte piet in my post history apart from 2 posts in this topic and a post i made on the main dutch forum.... just looking for peoples perspective on the whole thing..... why get your back up?

edit: i use a touchpad not a butt shaped mouse   I do suffer from CTS but do not wear an arm brace, I appreciate your ad hominem input to this topic though.....

[elasticband]

To best understand something it is sometimes easiest to look back at it origin....... something you don't seem to know anything about.

In medieval iconography, Saint Nicholas is sometimes presented as taming a chained devil, who may or may not be black. Although no hint of a devil, servant, or any other human or human-like fixed companion to the Saint is found in visual and textual sources from the Netherlands from the 16th until the 19th century,[10] Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in Germanic Europe, according to a long-standing theory,[11] originally must have represented such an enslaved devil, forced to assist his captor. This chained and fire-scorched devil somehow re-emerged in the 19th-century Netherlands in the likeness of a Moor, as a servant of Saint Nicholas.[12] A devil as a helper of the saint can still be found in the Austrian Saint Nicholas tradition, in the character of Krampus. The introduction of Zwarte Piet did coincide, by and large, with a change in the attitude of the Sinterklaas character. The latter had been quite severe towards bad children himself, and had in fact often been presented as a bogeyman when he was still a solitary character;[13] moreover, some of the same terrifying characteristics that were later associated with his servant Zwarte Piet were often attributed to Saint Nicholas himself.[14] The depiction of a holy man in this light was troubling to both teachers and priests. Sometime after the introduction of Zwarte Piet as Sinterklaas' servant, both characters adopted a softer character.[15] The lyrics of older traditional Sinterklaas songs, still sung today, warn that while Sinterklaas and his assistant will leave well-behaved children presents, they will punish those who have been very naughty. For example, they will take bad children and carry these children off in a burlap sack to their homeland of Spain, where, according to legend, Sinterklaas and his helper dwell out of season. These songs and stories also warn that a child who has been only slightly naughty will not get a present, but a "roe", which is a bundle of birch twigs, implying that they could have gotten a birching instead, or they will simply receive a lump of coal instead of gifts.

[Mitchell]

"Zwarte Piet" in The Netherlands is something children love. Maybe even more than "Sinterklaas" itself (because the Zwarte Piet gives them candy and "Pepernoten"). We don't gave a shit about the history and what the story says, in our country it's just a huge party.

The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad.

This is 100% bullshit.

[elasticband]

"Zwarte Piet" in The Netherlands is something children love. Maybe even more than "Sinterklaas" itself (because the Zwarte Piet gives them candy and "Pepernoten"). We don't gave a shit about the history and what the story says, in our country it's just a huge party.

The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad.

This is 100% bullshit.

I am not talking about the current situation when i say that, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about the history and how the character came about. I should  have said "conditioned" not conditions, emphasis on the past tense... sorry.

eidt: yes children don't care now as the zwarte piet character gives them candy and there is not so much emphasis on the bogeyman aspect of sinterklaas no adays, again i was talking about the origin. I don't think the current situation conditions children to think badly, i was talking about the origin of the story and character.

[Mitchell]

I am not talking about the current situation when i say that, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about the history and how the character came about.

Oh I see, well I was never thought the "real" story, because their are a lot of them, according to the Dutch wikipedia page (which is the only correct one, if you ask me).

Children nowadays don't learn that "Zwarte Piet" was a slave, black because of going down the chimney or something else. We never told them anything. They just thought of their own stories and saw them as the helpers of "Sinterklaas".
Currently there is a huge discussion about it being racist or not. 90% doesn't give a shit. However, this does teach children about racism way ahead of their time. They didn't know about racism, they didn't care and they have ever thought about that, till now.

A teacher once did an experiment with a few children. She said that "Sinterklaas" would be coming to their classroom and started to change her outfit into "Sinterklaas" during that story. Once she was done she said that she was "Sinterklaas" and the children asked her where their teacher went. Children just don't see the similarities between "black" people and "Zwarte piet", only we adults do.

[elasticband]

Currently there is a huge discussion about it being racist or not. 90% doesn't give a shit. However, this does teach children about racism way ahead of their time. They didn't know about racism, they didn't care and they have ever thought about that, till now.

It's quite a long drawn out debate to my understanding, i have older dutch friends 60+ years and they don't care, they talk about the soot on his face and how he gives candy and the kids love him. My more younger circle of dutch friends 20-40 years don't like the big red lips, the gold earrings and the full blackface. I don't really know what to think as i have no interaction with dutch children( hate kids). I just looking for some different perspectives. I don't like the history or how i perceive what i have read as history.

[Mitchell]

It's quite a long drawn out debate to my understanding, i have older dutch friends 60+ years and they don't care, they talk about the soot on his face and how he gives candy and the kids love him. My more younger circle of dutch friends 20-40 years don't like the big red lips, the gold earrings and the full blackface. I don't really know what to think as i have no interaction with dutch children( hate kids). I just looking for some different perspectives. I don't like the history or how i perceive what i have read as history.

Well, there is no "real" history, that's the point I tried to make. There are a lot of different stories, some are more racist than others. I honestly don't care about the history and I dislike everyone that has something against "Zwarte Piet". They are just looking for a reason to complain, because they have nothing else to do. It hurts nobody, children don't think of "black" people as "Zwarte Piet" and it's a loving and caring holiday.

I even talked to a few of my "black" friends and they don't give a shit.

[elasticband]

Obviously it is a story, a work of fiction and stories can be told differently, but there is history around the story and how the story has changed throughout time. At one point he was "Pieter me knecht" if i have read correctly and now he is just zwarte piet for one example. I am just curious and i guess i like history and find it interesting. again i don't want to offend anyone, sorry if i have.

edit: I'll have a read of the dutch wiki later, i didn't think it would be any different..... I always thought a nl.wiki was just a translation, learn something new everyday!

[Mitchell]

edit: I'll have a read of the dutch wiki later, i didn't think it would be any different..... I always thought a nl.wiki was just a translation, learn something new everyday!

Well, it's a Dutch holiday, so the Dutch Wikipedia is the most accurate. Makes sense right?

[neoneros]

Zwarte Piet was only introduced at the time, because it was a common thing to gaze upon other people in that day, it was something exotic, they had african people on display in zoos in that time, so it was a fun and hip thing to add to the sinterklaas story. Before that Sinterklaas did not have helpers, or in other countries(france and germany) they had a devil, or other (white)servant. That said, it could be easily adjusted to something hip and fun for this century. I think the dumbing down of the scaryness, the taking of children and punishing is what really should be restored.

The most scary part of the current discussion is the hatred and underlying racism that is coming out of the woodwork, it is  a good thing to get it in the open, racism is still alive. But that is a thing that was made clear with our other white haired friend Wilders.

Children don't care about how Piet looks like, as long as they can submerge in a nationwide fairytale and get tummyaches from all the candy they eat.  

[Xumpy]

I couldn't resist:

Everyone does realise that while you call him Saint Nicholas we call him Sinterklaas en you again call him Santa Claes
Histories seem to change but how we dutch/belgian people learn it, goes something like this:

Nikolaos of Myra was a greek saint who helped freeing turkish slaves. (Greeks and Turks have never been close friends).
As a reward for their freedom the slaves stayed with Nikolaes to help him out.
One evening a butcher lured three little children into his house and killed them.
He put them into a sack and wanted to sell them off as Ham.
When Nikolaos of Myra and his followers went visiting the butcher he imidiatly saw trough these lies.
The miracle he performend was opening the sack where the children jumped out, a live and well.

To recall his memory every evening on the 6 of december (The day Nikolaes died), people would honor him by
presenting gifts to their children in the name of Nikolaes of Myra.
To scare the children people say that when their being noughty they would be put into a sack.
The free slaves (who where of turkish origin, some of them where black but not all of them) would in the legend
be given the honor of bringing the toys to the children through the chimney.
That's why they are all black, it's because of the soot of the chimney.

This has always been a feast for children. It's really a shame that the world puts this in such a bad daylight.
The propaganda movies you see are just of some idiots who doesn't know anything about history.

If americans honor native indians, is it also an asult to dress like them???

[elasticband]

it depends what you wear, if you wear an American Indian war bonnet and you have not earned the right to wear one then to an American Indian this would most likely be disrespectful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_bonnet
http://www.mtv.com/news/1837578/why-you-should-not-wear-headdresses/

[Xumpy]

Point taken, and maybe I'm just defending a tradition we do for generations.

You should see it as if we would change Santa Clause to a skinny sporting purple person because it's an offense to picture an obese white person be pulled by reindeer's. Also the red costume is hidden commerce from Coca Cola and I find it offensive because Cola isn't good for our children...

You see what I did there. I started bitching over a tradition which most of the American people do their entire live.
One culture bitching over another culture would just create a lot of hate between those parties.

The worse part of all this is that 99% of both black and white belgian/dutch people doesn't see this as racism but as the child feast for which it stands. When I go to a Sinterklaasfeast Zwarte Piet is always singing, laughing and giving candy to children. How can that be an insult.

It's that 1 percent that creates these hate movies and put it all into a bad daylight...

If the costume is an insult this could also be said about Santa Claus (Cola, bad for children), Jesus (Why is Catholics most holey man white?), Eastern Bunny (There are no talking bunnies, nor are they laying eggs)...

[elasticband]

don't get me started on santa claus........ people just need to stop telling fairy tales to their kids about strange old men with beards coming from foreign lands to gift them for being good throughout the year, consumerist bullcrap holiday. We can compare zwarte piet to wahtever you want, but two wrongs don't really make a right do they?

It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?

[Mitchell]

-snip-
It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?

Yes, because that is our tradition and that is how we celebrate Sinterklaas. Children would be disappointed if "Zwarte Piet" wouldn't be there.

[elasticband]

-snip-
It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?

Yes, because that is our tradition and that is how we celebrate Sinterklaas. Children would be disappointed if "Zwarte Piet" wouldn't be there.

A teacher once did an experiment with a few children. She said that "Sinterklaas" would be coming to their classroom and started to change her outfit into "Sinterklaas" during that story. Once she was done she said that she was "Sinterklaas" and the children asked her where their teacher went.

I don't think children would notice or care if piet was no longer zwarte piet, i don't think they would care if it was a chicken head on a kangaroo body, they just like candy.

traditions change, traditions are not always right for the current times. traditions are born at different times when different things are accepted, but this is up to those living in the Netherlands to decide upon.

Fox hunting was a tradition (rich people) in the UK  but was outlawed 10 years ago...... times change, sometimes for the better.