[Netherlands christmas, sinter klaas helper] Zwarte Piet visits london

[elasticband]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLBxb29maw

whats your views on Zwarte Piet?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

[poisenrang]

my views on the helper of '''sinter klaas'' are pretty bad although i live in holland myself, and ive been having this tradition for over 20 years.

Its slavery how they are showing it in the video you are posting, but in the netherlands its just happiness.

[elasticband]

zwarte piet came at a point just after slavery was outlawed throughout colonies of the empire, the sinterklass character was more of a bogyman type, who would come and take children who were bad away to Spain( Netherlands enemy). the Zwarte piet character was a helper for this bogyman type, piet would climb down the chimneys of the bad kids and take them away. The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad. The clothes, black face, big red lips and gold earrings, these ware all typical depictions of the stereotypes of the time.
Yes things have changed over time and the story and been bent to hide certain aspects but this zwarte piet character was still conceived at a point where racism was rife in western cultures.......

[Raw-H]

zwarte piet came at a point just after slavery was outlawed throughout colonies of the empire, the sinterklass character was more of a bogyman type, who would come and take children who were bad away to Spain( Netherlands enemy). the Zwarte piet character was a helper for this bogyman type, piet would climb down the chimneys of the bad kids and take them away. The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad. The clothes, black face, big red lips and gold earrings, these ware all typical depictions of the stereotypes of the time.
Yes things have changed over time and the story and been bent to hide certain aspects but this zwarte piet character was still conceived at a point where racism was rife in western cultures.......

You are not from the Netherlands right?

I just checked your post history and it's filled with this nonsense. So i'm not gonna waste any more time on you, because you are the classic example of internettroll.

[elasticband]

zwarte piet came at a point just after slavery was outlawed throughout colonies of the empire, the sinterklass character was more of a bogyman type, who would come and take children who were bad away to Spain( Netherlands enemy). the Zwarte piet character was a helper for this bogyman type, piet would climb down the chimneys of the bad kids and take them away. The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad. The clothes, black face, big red lips and gold earrings, these ware all typical depictions of the stereotypes of the time.
Yes things have changed over time and the story and been bent to hide certain aspects but this zwarte piet character was still conceived at a point where racism was rife in western cultures.......

You are not from the Netherlands right?

I just checked your post history and it's filled with this nonsense. So i'm not gonna waste any more time on you, because you are the classic example of internettroll.

I live in the Netherlands, yes. I don't think you will really see any nonsense pertaining to zwarte piet in my post history apart from 2 posts in this topic and a post i made on the main dutch forum.... just looking for peoples perspective on the whole thing..... why get your back up?

edit: i use a touchpad not a butt shaped mouse   I do suffer from CTS but do not wear an arm brace, I appreciate your ad hominem input to this topic though.....

[elasticband]

To best understand something it is sometimes easiest to look back at it origin....... something you don't seem to know anything about.

In medieval iconography, Saint Nicholas is sometimes presented as taming a chained devil, who may or may not be black. Although no hint of a devil, servant, or any other human or human-like fixed companion to the Saint is found in visual and textual sources from the Netherlands from the 16th until the 19th century,[10] Zwarte Piet and his equivalents in Germanic Europe, according to a long-standing theory,[11] originally must have represented such an enslaved devil, forced to assist his captor. This chained and fire-scorched devil somehow re-emerged in the 19th-century Netherlands in the likeness of a Moor, as a servant of Saint Nicholas.[12] A devil as a helper of the saint can still be found in the Austrian Saint Nicholas tradition, in the character of Krampus. The introduction of Zwarte Piet did coincide, by and large, with a change in the attitude of the Sinterklaas character. The latter had been quite severe towards bad children himself, and had in fact often been presented as a bogeyman when he was still a solitary character;[13] moreover, some of the same terrifying characteristics that were later associated with his servant Zwarte Piet were often attributed to Saint Nicholas himself.[14] The depiction of a holy man in this light was troubling to both teachers and priests. Sometime after the introduction of Zwarte Piet as Sinterklaas' servant, both characters adopted a softer character.[15] The lyrics of older traditional Sinterklaas songs, still sung today, warn that while Sinterklaas and his assistant will leave well-behaved children presents, they will punish those who have been very naughty. For example, they will take bad children and carry these children off in a burlap sack to their homeland of Spain, where, according to legend, Sinterklaas and his helper dwell out of season. These songs and stories also warn that a child who has been only slightly naughty will not get a present, but a "roe", which is a bundle of birch twigs, implying that they could have gotten a birching instead, or they will simply receive a lump of coal instead of gifts.

[Mitchell]

"Zwarte Piet" in The Netherlands is something children love. Maybe even more than "Sinterklaas" itself (because the Zwarte Piet gives them candy and "Pepernoten"). We don't gave a shit about the history and what the story says, in our country it's just a huge party.

The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad.

This is 100% bullshit.

[elasticband]

"Zwarte Piet" in The Netherlands is something children love. Maybe even more than "Sinterklaas" itself (because the Zwarte Piet gives them candy and "Pepernoten"). We don't gave a shit about the history and what the story says, in our country it's just a huge party.

The whole story conditions children to associate's zwarte piet with evil and being bad.

This is 100% bullshit.

I am not talking about the current situation when i say that, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about the history and how the character came about. I should  have said "conditioned" not conditions, emphasis on the past tense... sorry.

eidt: yes children don't care now as the zwarte piet character gives them candy and there is not so much emphasis on the bogeyman aspect of sinterklaas no adays, again i was talking about the origin. I don't think the current situation conditions children to think badly, i was talking about the origin of the story and character.

[Mitchell]

I am not talking about the current situation when i say that, sorry for the confusion. I am talking about the history and how the character came about.

Oh I see, well I was never thought the "real" story, because their are a lot of them, according to the Dutch wikipedia page (which is the only correct one, if you ask me).

Children nowadays don't learn that "Zwarte Piet" was a slave, black because of going down the chimney or something else. We never told them anything. They just thought of their own stories and saw them as the helpers of "Sinterklaas".
Currently there is a huge discussion about it being racist or not. 90% doesn't give a shit. However, this does teach children about racism way ahead of their time. They didn't know about racism, they didn't care and they have ever thought about that, till now.

A teacher once did an experiment with a few children. She said that "Sinterklaas" would be coming to their classroom and started to change her outfit into "Sinterklaas" during that story. Once she was done she said that she was "Sinterklaas" and the children asked her where their teacher went. Children just don't see the similarities between "black" people and "Zwarte piet", only we adults do.

[elasticband]

Currently there is a huge discussion about it being racist or not. 90% doesn't give a shit. However, this does teach children about racism way ahead of their time. They didn't know about racism, they didn't care and they have ever thought about that, till now.

It's quite a long drawn out debate to my understanding, i have older dutch friends 60+ years and they don't care, they talk about the soot on his face and how he gives candy and the kids love him. My more younger circle of dutch friends 20-40 years don't like the big red lips, the gold earrings and the full blackface. I don't really know what to think as i have no interaction with dutch children( hate kids). I just looking for some different perspectives. I don't like the history or how i perceive what i have read as history.

[Mitchell]

It's quite a long drawn out debate to my understanding, i have older dutch friends 60+ years and they don't care, they talk about the soot on his face and how he gives candy and the kids love him. My more younger circle of dutch friends 20-40 years don't like the big red lips, the gold earrings and the full blackface. I don't really know what to think as i have no interaction with dutch children( hate kids). I just looking for some different perspectives. I don't like the history or how i perceive what i have read as history.

Well, there is no "real" history, that's the point I tried to make. There are a lot of different stories, some are more racist than others. I honestly don't care about the history and I dislike everyone that has something against "Zwarte Piet". They are just looking for a reason to complain, because they have nothing else to do. It hurts nobody, children don't think of "black" people as "Zwarte Piet" and it's a loving and caring holiday.

I even talked to a few of my "black" friends and they don't give a shit.

[elasticband]

Obviously it is a story, a work of fiction and stories can be told differently, but there is history around the story and how the story has changed throughout time. At one point he was "Pieter me knecht" if i have read correctly and now he is just zwarte piet for one example. I am just curious and i guess i like history and find it interesting. again i don't want to offend anyone, sorry if i have.

edit: I'll have a read of the dutch wiki later, i didn't think it would be any different..... I always thought a nl.wiki was just a translation, learn something new everyday!

[Mitchell]

edit: I'll have a read of the dutch wiki later, i didn't think it would be any different..... I always thought a nl.wiki was just a translation, learn something new everyday!

Well, it's a Dutch holiday, so the Dutch Wikipedia is the most accurate. Makes sense right?

[neoneros]

Zwarte Piet was only introduced at the time, because it was a common thing to gaze upon other people in that day, it was something exotic, they had african people on display in zoos in that time, so it was a fun and hip thing to add to the sinterklaas story. Before that Sinterklaas did not have helpers, or in other countries(france and germany) they had a devil, or other (white)servant. That said, it could be easily adjusted to something hip and fun for this century. I think the dumbing down of the scaryness, the taking of children and punishing is what really should be restored.

The most scary part of the current discussion is the hatred and underlying racism that is coming out of the woodwork, it is  a good thing to get it in the open, racism is still alive. But that is a thing that was made clear with our other white haired friend Wilders.

Children don't care about how Piet looks like, as long as they can submerge in a nationwide fairytale and get tummyaches from all the candy they eat.  

[Xumpy]

I couldn't resist:

Everyone does realise that while you call him Saint Nicholas we call him Sinterklaas en you again call him Santa Claes
Histories seem to change but how we dutch/belgian people learn it, goes something like this:

Nikolaos of Myra was a greek saint who helped freeing turkish slaves. (Greeks and Turks have never been close friends).
As a reward for their freedom the slaves stayed with Nikolaes to help him out.
One evening a butcher lured three little children into his house and killed them.
He put them into a sack and wanted to sell them off as Ham.
When Nikolaos of Myra and his followers went visiting the butcher he imidiatly saw trough these lies.
The miracle he performend was opening the sack where the children jumped out, a live and well.

To recall his memory every evening on the 6 of december (The day Nikolaes died), people would honor him by
presenting gifts to their children in the name of Nikolaes of Myra.
To scare the children people say that when their being noughty they would be put into a sack.
The free slaves (who where of turkish origin, some of them where black but not all of them) would in the legend
be given the honor of bringing the toys to the children through the chimney.
That's why they are all black, it's because of the soot of the chimney.

This has always been a feast for children. It's really a shame that the world puts this in such a bad daylight.
The propaganda movies you see are just of some idiots who doesn't know anything about history.

If americans honor native indians, is it also an asult to dress like them???

[elasticband]

it depends what you wear, if you wear an American Indian war bonnet and you have not earned the right to wear one then to an American Indian this would most likely be disrespectful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_bonnet
http://www.mtv.com/news/1837578/why-you-should-not-wear-headdresses/

[Xumpy]

Point taken, and maybe I'm just defending a tradition we do for generations.

You should see it as if we would change Santa Clause to a skinny sporting purple person because it's an offense to picture an obese white person be pulled by reindeer's. Also the red costume is hidden commerce from Coca Cola and I find it offensive because Cola isn't good for our children...

You see what I did there. I started bitching over a tradition which most of the American people do their entire live.
One culture bitching over another culture would just create a lot of hate between those parties.

The worse part of all this is that 99% of both black and white belgian/dutch people doesn't see this as racism but as the child feast for which it stands. When I go to a Sinterklaasfeast Zwarte Piet is always singing, laughing and giving candy to children. How can that be an insult.

It's that 1 percent that creates these hate movies and put it all into a bad daylight...

If the costume is an insult this could also be said about Santa Claus (Cola, bad for children), Jesus (Why is Catholics most holey man white?), Eastern Bunny (There are no talking bunnies, nor are they laying eggs)...

[elasticband]

don't get me started on santa claus........ people just need to stop telling fairy tales to their kids about strange old men with beards coming from foreign lands to gift them for being good throughout the year, consumerist bullcrap holiday. We can compare zwarte piet to wahtever you want, but two wrongs don't really make a right do they?

It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?

[Mitchell]

-snip-
It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?

Yes, because that is our tradition and that is how we celebrate Sinterklaas. Children would be disappointed if "Zwarte Piet" wouldn't be there.

[elasticband]

-snip-
It's cool children enjoy sinterklaas and piet but do adults really need to black themselves up with big red lips and gold earrings for their kids to enjoy sinter klaas?

Yes, because that is our tradition and that is how we celebrate Sinterklaas. Children would be disappointed if "Zwarte Piet" wouldn't be there.

A teacher once did an experiment with a few children. She said that "Sinterklaas" would be coming to their classroom and started to change her outfit into "Sinterklaas" during that story. Once she was done she said that she was "Sinterklaas" and the children asked her where their teacher went.

I don't think children would notice or care if piet was no longer zwarte piet, i don't think they would care if it was a chicken head on a kangaroo body, they just like candy.

traditions change, traditions are not always right for the current times. traditions are born at different times when different things are accepted, but this is up to those living in the Netherlands to decide upon.

Fox hunting was a tradition (rich people) in the UK  but was outlawed 10 years ago...... times change, sometimes for the better.

[elasticband]

http://www.hetoudekinderboek.nl/archief/BomNikolaas/BomNikolaas.htm

[Xumpy]

Children can't nor have to understand our current society with their culture standards.
When you say to your kid that he has to behave the kid will see it as a parental requirement.

If you say to the kid he has to behave else he won't get anything from Santa Claus or Sinterklaas the kid sees it as something magical.
People have always known this, why else would there be fairy tales (and there morals).

You would suggest that children may not believe in these stories anymore...
I believe those children would grow up very depressed and with a great dislike of society.

You can only know this if you've ever see the sparkle into a kids eye when he opens up his presents given by some magic and compare it with the times you give him a present yourself...

Trust me, it's worth it

And for why people would dress up, well I think it's to enforce the story (children believe what they see). Off course it is also part of the tradition and as I've said: How is it racists when a "so called slave" is singing laughing and giving candy to happy children??? I think if you live in the past anything can be called racists at some point. The word has been misused a little to much.

Also, I hope everyone realizes that I (and I think a lot of other people) didn't even knew what a moor was until the entire zwarte piet discussion started :p

[elasticband]

Children can't nor have to understand our current society with their culture standards.
When you say to your kid that he has to behave the kid will see it as a parental requirement.

If you say to the kid he has to behave else he won't get anything from Santa Claus or Sinterklaas the kid sees it as something magical.
People have always known this, why else would there be fairy tales (and there morals).

You would suggest that children may not believe in these stories anymore...
I believe those children would grow up very depressed and with a great dislike of society.

You can only know this if you've ever see the sparkle into a kids eye when he opens up his presents given by some magic and compare it with the times you give him a present yourself...

Trust me, it's worth it

And for why people would dress up, well I think it's to enforce the story (children believe what they see). Off course it is also part of the tradition and as I've said: How is it racists when a "so called slave" is singing laughing and giving candy to happy children??? I think if you live in the past anything can be called racists at some point. The word has been misused a little to much.

Also, I hope everyone realizes that I (and I think a lot of other people) didn't even knew what a moor was until the entire zwarte piet discussion started :p

okay i will dress up as Hitler, parade around the streets of Amsterdam giving sweets to children and that will make my dress sense okay?
I personally think zwarte piet resembles racist stereo types of the past and given the time in history when the character came about and the pictures of him acting as sinter klass's servant, maybe just maybe the anti zwarte piet movement have a point...... but then again the kids get their sweets....

[zimmah]

Zwarte piet is something that evolved over time.

Started out with being demons and slowly transformed into black slaves over the years.

It would take me too much effort to make a complete list, but sinterklaas and Christmas are both based on old pagan and shamanistic rituals, mostly fertility rites.

in fact, pretty much every 'modern' holiday is based on ancient rituals and pagan traditions, most people are worshiping old gods without even knowing it.

[elasticband]

Zwarte piet is something that evolved over time.

Started out with being demons and slowly transformed into black slaves over the years.

it's interesting how the story transforms from a demon into a black slave over time.... no connotation there at all.... perfectly normal none racist childrens story.

[Xumpy]

okay i will dress up as Hitler, parade around the streets of Amsterdam giving sweets to children and that will make my dress sense okay?
I personally think zwarte piet resembles racist stereo types of the past and given the time in history when the character came about and the pictures of him acting as sinter klass's servant, maybe just maybe the anti zwarte piet movement have a point...... but then again the kids get their sweets....

Nah not as Hitler, Hitler is to fresh into the people's mind.

If you want to compare it with something of the days zwarte piet was introduced compare it with Napoleon.
Dressing up as Napoleon and give candy to children happens at many carnavls and is socially accepted.
Don't forget that he was much worse then Hitler.

I admit that you have valid points but imho it's more a trend to break down peoples traditions...

[elasticband]

slavery is still so fresh that people int he western world black themselves up as sinter klaas servant and don't even understand or recognize the history behind what they are doing, they do it because the children like it.....

one part of me thinks the Dutch just don't want to admit that their time old tradition might just be slightly racist or born out of..... would this then mean the dutch are racist? best just avoid the topic altogether and just keep zwarte piet as he is and plead ignorance..... nah the dutch would never do that...... ignorace is bliss after all.

[saddampbuh]

every xmas this gets brought up on my teamspeak server by a family of dutch moroccans, they laugh at how much pussies the dutch people are to change their traditions so as to not offend people of colour

[elasticband]

every xmas this gets brought up on my teamspeak server by a family of dutch moroccans, they laugh at how much pussies the dutch people are to change their traditions so as to not offend people of colour

it takes a bigger man to admit he as wrong and to change than it does to stay the same

edit: also to my understanding, Moroccans  don't exactly hold Black Africans with the highest regard, descendants of slaves.....

[Snail2]

Liberals and human rights campaigners must be very bored. They should go to Syria, Iraq or East Ukraine to fight for human rights if they want to be useful. Unfortunately there are rough people with guns and knives so sticking to Zwarte Piet and fucking around traditional Christmas stuff is safer and perhaps fits better to their agenda.

[elasticband]

Liberals and human rights campaigners must be very bored. They should go to Syria, Iraq or East Ukraine to fight for human rights if they want to be useful. Unfortunately there are rough people with guns and knives so sticking to Zwarte Piet and fucking around traditional Christmas stuff is safer and perhaps fits better to their agenda.

I live in NL, I am not exactly picking any random thing to questions, I am genuinely interested in this and the history, but thanks for your informative addition of your thoughts on the subject.

[Xumpy]

As I tried to explain a couple of times. We don't see it as slavery. People dress themselfs like moors. Not slaves!
If that's an insult then it's an insult to dress up like any race.

Zwarte Piet isn't a slave. At some point in time he probably was but not anymore!
The story already changed. It changed a lot even from when I was a boy.
Changing it so drastically that zwarte piet wouldn't even be part of it anymore would for many of us be the same as canceling the feast all together...

In time it will change a lot more, but let it change naturally and not by force!
It will only be seen as an attack to the dutch/belgian culture.

You must understand our point of view. A couple of years ago we needed to remove the cross from his miter and now we need to remove zwarte piet all together...

[elasticband]

As I tried to explain a couple of times. We don't see it as slavery. People dress themselfs like moors. Not slaves!
If that's an insult then it's an insult to dress up like any race.

People can dress like a moor without having black face, big red lips gold earrings and stupid voices. it's these additions to the dress that kind of make zwarte piet look a bit like a....... if it's soot on his face whats with the black curly hair, dark black skin, gold earings big read lips and stupid voices very similar to other stereotypical racial images.

Given the history, the orignal book and the current debate, yes i fail to understand why black face is needed. nothing personal, i have many dutch friends who are for and against, no hard feelings.

[Xumpy]

I respect your opinion. But you must see that in time all off this will probably change natural.

Personally I've never heard zwarte piet with a stupid voice. At least that's not how we played him.
We use the black skin, golden earrings en big red lips as a disguise so our children would not recognize us.

So things already changed and every year they will continue changing. But please there are more important stuff in the world right now.
Give it time and especially give our people and children time...

[elasticband]

I respect your opinion. But you must see that in time all off this will probably change natural.

Personally I've never heard zwarte piet with a stupid voice. At least that's not how we played him.
We use the black skin, golden earrings en big red lips as a disguise so our children would not recognize us.

So things already changed and every year they will continue changing. But please there are more important stuff in the world right now.
Give it time and especially give our people and children time...

In the past zwarte piet use to be played with a Suriname type accent this changed in the 20th century due to the negative racial implication.


why have they changed him so much, to fog the history behind the character?
history & changes of zwarte piet
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/zwarte-piet/

[neoneros]

Point taken, and maybe I'm just defending a tradition we do for generations.

You should see it as if we would change Santa Clause to a skinny sporting purple person because it's an offense to picture an obese white person be pulled by reindeer's. Also the red costume is hidden commerce from Coca Cola and I find it offensive because Cola isn't good for our children...

You see what I did there. I started bitching over a tradition which most of the American people do their entire live.
One culture bitching over another culture would just create a lot of hate between those parties.

The worse part of all this is that 99% of both black and white belgian/dutch people doesn't see this as racism but as the child feast for which it stands. When I go to a Sinterklaasfeast Zwarte Piet is always singing, laughing and giving candy to children. How can that be an insult.

It's that 1 percent that creates these hate movies and put it all into a bad daylight...

If the costume is an insult this could also be said about Santa Claus (Cola, bad for children), Jesus (Why is Catholics most holey man white?), Eastern Bunny (There are no talking bunnies, nor are they laying eggs)...

There is a big difference in dressing up as a rabbit or friendly obese white man on the one side and dressing up as a black man using stereotypes that originated from an era where segregation was normal.
The whiteman stereo type is not a negative one, the blackface stereo type does have a negative origin. White men have never been oppressed, been looked down upon as inferior or been exhibited in a zoo(not so long ago: http://www.doorbraak.eu/gebladerte/11507f99.htm in dutch)

The discussion explodes every time because of the underlying problem of the racism that still lives strong. Dutch people are more racist than they are willing to admit. They still feel superior. it is not just 1%. 1% does not get mr Wilders and his Princenvlag friends enough votes to sit on the pluche.

Children do not care, that is what the experiment someone else talked about illustrates very nicely, they just want a fairytale to believe in and they will believe whatever you tell them and show them, if you dress up as someone else, they believe with their shortsighted minds that there is someone else and the other person is gone. They will fill the gap with their vast imagination. If Zwarte piet changes their minds will accept with no hessitation. It is the racist parents and adults with their fixed unimaginative brains that do not want to see that change is not a problem.

[elasticband]

https://www.radar.nl/read/zwarte_piet_

[Xumpy]

There is a big difference in dressing up as a rabbit or friendly obese white man on the one side and dressing up as a black man using stereotypes that originated from an era where segregation was normal.
The whiteman stereo type is not a negative one, the blackface stereo type does have a negative origin. White men have never been oppressed, been looked down upon as inferior or been exhibited in a zoo(not so long ago: http://www.doorbraak.eu/gebladerte/11507f99.htm in dutch)

The discussion explodes every time because of the underlying problem of the racism that still lives strong. Dutch people are more racist than they are willing to admit. They still feel superior. it is not just 1%. 1% does not get mr Wilders and his Princenvlag friends enough votes to sit on the pluche.

Children do not care, that is what the experiment someone else talked about illustrates very nicely, they just want a fairytale to believe in and they will believe whatever you tell them and show them, if you dress up as someone else, they believe with their shortsighted minds that there is someone else and the other person is gone. They will fill the gap with their vast imagination. If Zwarte piet changes their minds will accept with no hessitation. It is the racist parents and adults with their fixed unimaginative brains that do not want to see that change is not a problem.

I think you underestimate children... Especially those that already knew zwarte piet. Children have anything but shortsighted minds and they will ask questions, believe me!
Also the dutch people have been called racists for so many times by people like you that in time they are starting to believe it...

What do you want when people migrate to your country, you are putting their ways above yours and still you're being called a racist.
Simple example, when you ask a Muslim woman to take of here veil it's called racists while it's an insult to all western woman who had to fight for woman's rights (you wanted an example of white suppression, it existed and still exists between men and women).

Sorry but if you go that way then all suppressing ways or symbols should be banned because it's racial...

Also I'm Belgian and have many black friends. They don't care about zwarte piet! I have nothing to do with mr wilders.

[elasticband]

I think you underestimate children... Especially those that already knew zwarte piet. Children have anything but shortsighted minds and they will ask questions, believe me!

then its about time Belgians and Dutch owned up to their children and tell them zwarte piet will be changing due to racial history behind the charachter and the time he was created, children can handle the truth!

it's not about putting immigrant WAYS before yours, it's about understanding why YOUR ways might be insulting and disrespectful to the peoples of the old slave colonies of the dutch empire........ surely just a little bit of respect.

[Xumpy]

Can't understand why people are so upset.

Is it because zwarte piet is black. When he would be white it's not a problem.
So black people can not play him anymore. Ow sorry my friend you can't play with us, your to black. Who's the real racist behind this?

Or is it because he was a moor?? So people can not impersonate each other.

Again, I don't know off anyone who's oppose to this cultural tradition instead of some so called world improvers that can only complain about little things and never even attended a sinterklaas feast.

We respect zwarte piet! Not laugh at him!

edit: Why is it any different from a Muslim woman who refuses to take off here veil. It's just a stupid sharp. If you take it your way then it might be an insult for all the woman who fought hard to get woman rights in the world.
But then again, I don't see it this way and I have respect for their ways and their believes!

Perhaps I would be more open minded when we change little things about him. Take away his earrings, change it into something else, maybe make his lips less red or something like that and I would agree. But the black is camouflage so our children wouldn't recognize it's actually us.

edit2: Are you really suggesting teaching children what a racist is???

[neoneros]

The fact we respect Piet is without a doubt. But it stereotypes a minority which after several generations still has a lot of problems to integrate. Xenophobia is still a big issue.

Muslims and the respect of woman is a different discussion, but one that could use the same or even more attention, though most woman I know wear the headscarf out of belief and out of free will.

It would be a good idea to teach children about racism, how to recognise it, where it comes from and what they can do about it. The story of 'Kikker en de vreemdeling' is a very good illustration of how to do that even at a very young age.
Maybe the story of Zwarte piet can be used in that way too, not just a feast of gifts, but also one of oneness in the world and ridding it of stupid fears, linking back to the slave history and using it to teach, then dressing up as zwarte piet would be educational.

[elasticband]

Couldn't have put it any better.

[Xumpy]

If you put it like that I to have to agree on this

[elasticband]

[saddampbuh]

it takes a bigger man to admit he as wrong and to change than it does to stay the same

edit: also to my understanding, Moroccans  don't exactly hold Black Africans with the highest regard, descendants of slaves.....

wrong about what? mass thirld world immigration has been a disaster for europe.