[Netherlands christmas, sinter klaas helper] Zwarte Piet visits london

[elasticband]

http://www.hetoudekinderboek.nl/archief/BomNikolaas/BomNikolaas.htm

[Xumpy]

Children can't nor have to understand our current society with their culture standards.
When you say to your kid that he has to behave the kid will see it as a parental requirement.

If you say to the kid he has to behave else he won't get anything from Santa Claus or Sinterklaas the kid sees it as something magical.
People have always known this, why else would there be fairy tales (and there morals).

You would suggest that children may not believe in these stories anymore...
I believe those children would grow up very depressed and with a great dislike of society.

You can only know this if you've ever see the sparkle into a kids eye when he opens up his presents given by some magic and compare it with the times you give him a present yourself...

Trust me, it's worth it

And for why people would dress up, well I think it's to enforce the story (children believe what they see). Off course it is also part of the tradition and as I've said: How is it racists when a "so called slave" is singing laughing and giving candy to happy children??? I think if you live in the past anything can be called racists at some point. The word has been misused a little to much.

Also, I hope everyone realizes that I (and I think a lot of other people) didn't even knew what a moor was until the entire zwarte piet discussion started :p

[elasticband]

Children can't nor have to understand our current society with their culture standards.
When you say to your kid that he has to behave the kid will see it as a parental requirement.

If you say to the kid he has to behave else he won't get anything from Santa Claus or Sinterklaas the kid sees it as something magical.
People have always known this, why else would there be fairy tales (and there morals).

You would suggest that children may not believe in these stories anymore...
I believe those children would grow up very depressed and with a great dislike of society.

You can only know this if you've ever see the sparkle into a kids eye when he opens up his presents given by some magic and compare it with the times you give him a present yourself...

Trust me, it's worth it

And for why people would dress up, well I think it's to enforce the story (children believe what they see). Off course it is also part of the tradition and as I've said: How is it racists when a "so called slave" is singing laughing and giving candy to happy children??? I think if you live in the past anything can be called racists at some point. The word has been misused a little to much.

Also, I hope everyone realizes that I (and I think a lot of other people) didn't even knew what a moor was until the entire zwarte piet discussion started :p

okay i will dress up as Hitler, parade around the streets of Amsterdam giving sweets to children and that will make my dress sense okay?
I personally think zwarte piet resembles racist stereo types of the past and given the time in history when the character came about and the pictures of him acting as sinter klass's servant, maybe just maybe the anti zwarte piet movement have a point...... but then again the kids get their sweets....

[zimmah]

Zwarte piet is something that evolved over time.

Started out with being demons and slowly transformed into black slaves over the years.

It would take me too much effort to make a complete list, but sinterklaas and Christmas are both based on old pagan and shamanistic rituals, mostly fertility rites.

in fact, pretty much every 'modern' holiday is based on ancient rituals and pagan traditions, most people are worshiping old gods without even knowing it.

[elasticband]

Zwarte piet is something that evolved over time.

Started out with being demons and slowly transformed into black slaves over the years.

it's interesting how the story transforms from a demon into a black slave over time.... no connotation there at all.... perfectly normal none racist childrens story.

[Xumpy]

okay i will dress up as Hitler, parade around the streets of Amsterdam giving sweets to children and that will make my dress sense okay?
I personally think zwarte piet resembles racist stereo types of the past and given the time in history when the character came about and the pictures of him acting as sinter klass's servant, maybe just maybe the anti zwarte piet movement have a point...... but then again the kids get their sweets....

Nah not as Hitler, Hitler is to fresh into the people's mind.

If you want to compare it with something of the days zwarte piet was introduced compare it with Napoleon.
Dressing up as Napoleon and give candy to children happens at many carnavls and is socially accepted.
Don't forget that he was much worse then Hitler.

I admit that you have valid points but imho it's more a trend to break down peoples traditions...

[elasticband]

slavery is still so fresh that people int he western world black themselves up as sinter klaas servant and don't even understand or recognize the history behind what they are doing, they do it because the children like it.....

one part of me thinks the Dutch just don't want to admit that their time old tradition might just be slightly racist or born out of..... would this then mean the dutch are racist? best just avoid the topic altogether and just keep zwarte piet as he is and plead ignorance..... nah the dutch would never do that...... ignorace is bliss after all.

[saddampbuh]

every xmas this gets brought up on my teamspeak server by a family of dutch moroccans, they laugh at how much pussies the dutch people are to change their traditions so as to not offend people of colour

[elasticband]

every xmas this gets brought up on my teamspeak server by a family of dutch moroccans, they laugh at how much pussies the dutch people are to change their traditions so as to not offend people of colour

it takes a bigger man to admit he as wrong and to change than it does to stay the same

edit: also to my understanding, Moroccans  don't exactly hold Black Africans with the highest regard, descendants of slaves.....

[Snail2]

Liberals and human rights campaigners must be very bored. They should go to Syria, Iraq or East Ukraine to fight for human rights if they want to be useful. Unfortunately there are rough people with guns and knives so sticking to Zwarte Piet and fucking around traditional Christmas stuff is safer and perhaps fits better to their agenda.

[elasticband]

Liberals and human rights campaigners must be very bored. They should go to Syria, Iraq or East Ukraine to fight for human rights if they want to be useful. Unfortunately there are rough people with guns and knives so sticking to Zwarte Piet and fucking around traditional Christmas stuff is safer and perhaps fits better to their agenda.

I live in NL, I am not exactly picking any random thing to questions, I am genuinely interested in this and the history, but thanks for your informative addition of your thoughts on the subject.

[Xumpy]

As I tried to explain a couple of times. We don't see it as slavery. People dress themselfs like moors. Not slaves!
If that's an insult then it's an insult to dress up like any race.

Zwarte Piet isn't a slave. At some point in time he probably was but not anymore!
The story already changed. It changed a lot even from when I was a boy.
Changing it so drastically that zwarte piet wouldn't even be part of it anymore would for many of us be the same as canceling the feast all together...

In time it will change a lot more, but let it change naturally and not by force!
It will only be seen as an attack to the dutch/belgian culture.

You must understand our point of view. A couple of years ago we needed to remove the cross from his miter and now we need to remove zwarte piet all together...

[elasticband]

As I tried to explain a couple of times. We don't see it as slavery. People dress themselfs like moors. Not slaves!
If that's an insult then it's an insult to dress up like any race.

People can dress like a moor without having black face, big red lips gold earrings and stupid voices. it's these additions to the dress that kind of make zwarte piet look a bit like a....... if it's soot on his face whats with the black curly hair, dark black skin, gold earings big read lips and stupid voices very similar to other stereotypical racial images.

Given the history, the orignal book and the current debate, yes i fail to understand why black face is needed. nothing personal, i have many dutch friends who are for and against, no hard feelings.

[Xumpy]

I respect your opinion. But you must see that in time all off this will probably change natural.

Personally I've never heard zwarte piet with a stupid voice. At least that's not how we played him.
We use the black skin, golden earrings en big red lips as a disguise so our children would not recognize us.

So things already changed and every year they will continue changing. But please there are more important stuff in the world right now.
Give it time and especially give our people and children time...

[elasticband]

I respect your opinion. But you must see that in time all off this will probably change natural.

Personally I've never heard zwarte piet with a stupid voice. At least that's not how we played him.
We use the black skin, golden earrings en big red lips as a disguise so our children would not recognize us.

So things already changed and every year they will continue changing. But please there are more important stuff in the world right now.
Give it time and especially give our people and children time...

In the past zwarte piet use to be played with a Suriname type accent this changed in the 20th century due to the negative racial implication.


why have they changed him so much, to fog the history behind the character?
history & changes of zwarte piet
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/zwarte-piet/

[neoneros]

Point taken, and maybe I'm just defending a tradition we do for generations.

You should see it as if we would change Santa Clause to a skinny sporting purple person because it's an offense to picture an obese white person be pulled by reindeer's. Also the red costume is hidden commerce from Coca Cola and I find it offensive because Cola isn't good for our children...

You see what I did there. I started bitching over a tradition which most of the American people do their entire live.
One culture bitching over another culture would just create a lot of hate between those parties.

The worse part of all this is that 99% of both black and white belgian/dutch people doesn't see this as racism but as the child feast for which it stands. When I go to a Sinterklaasfeast Zwarte Piet is always singing, laughing and giving candy to children. How can that be an insult.

It's that 1 percent that creates these hate movies and put it all into a bad daylight...

If the costume is an insult this could also be said about Santa Claus (Cola, bad for children), Jesus (Why is Catholics most holey man white?), Eastern Bunny (There are no talking bunnies, nor are they laying eggs)...

There is a big difference in dressing up as a rabbit or friendly obese white man on the one side and dressing up as a black man using stereotypes that originated from an era where segregation was normal.
The whiteman stereo type is not a negative one, the blackface stereo type does have a negative origin. White men have never been oppressed, been looked down upon as inferior or been exhibited in a zoo(not so long ago: http://www.doorbraak.eu/gebladerte/11507f99.htm in dutch)

The discussion explodes every time because of the underlying problem of the racism that still lives strong. Dutch people are more racist than they are willing to admit. They still feel superior. it is not just 1%. 1% does not get mr Wilders and his Princenvlag friends enough votes to sit on the pluche.

Children do not care, that is what the experiment someone else talked about illustrates very nicely, they just want a fairytale to believe in and they will believe whatever you tell them and show them, if you dress up as someone else, they believe with their shortsighted minds that there is someone else and the other person is gone. They will fill the gap with their vast imagination. If Zwarte piet changes their minds will accept with no hessitation. It is the racist parents and adults with their fixed unimaginative brains that do not want to see that change is not a problem.

[elasticband]

https://www.radar.nl/read/zwarte_piet_

[Xumpy]

There is a big difference in dressing up as a rabbit or friendly obese white man on the one side and dressing up as a black man using stereotypes that originated from an era where segregation was normal.
The whiteman stereo type is not a negative one, the blackface stereo type does have a negative origin. White men have never been oppressed, been looked down upon as inferior or been exhibited in a zoo(not so long ago: http://www.doorbraak.eu/gebladerte/11507f99.htm in dutch)

The discussion explodes every time because of the underlying problem of the racism that still lives strong. Dutch people are more racist than they are willing to admit. They still feel superior. it is not just 1%. 1% does not get mr Wilders and his Princenvlag friends enough votes to sit on the pluche.

Children do not care, that is what the experiment someone else talked about illustrates very nicely, they just want a fairytale to believe in and they will believe whatever you tell them and show them, if you dress up as someone else, they believe with their shortsighted minds that there is someone else and the other person is gone. They will fill the gap with their vast imagination. If Zwarte piet changes their minds will accept with no hessitation. It is the racist parents and adults with their fixed unimaginative brains that do not want to see that change is not a problem.

I think you underestimate children... Especially those that already knew zwarte piet. Children have anything but shortsighted minds and they will ask questions, believe me!
Also the dutch people have been called racists for so many times by people like you that in time they are starting to believe it...

What do you want when people migrate to your country, you are putting their ways above yours and still you're being called a racist.
Simple example, when you ask a Muslim woman to take of here veil it's called racists while it's an insult to all western woman who had to fight for woman's rights (you wanted an example of white suppression, it existed and still exists between men and women).

Sorry but if you go that way then all suppressing ways or symbols should be banned because it's racial...

Also I'm Belgian and have many black friends. They don't care about zwarte piet! I have nothing to do with mr wilders.

[elasticband]

I think you underestimate children... Especially those that already knew zwarte piet. Children have anything but shortsighted minds and they will ask questions, believe me!

then its about time Belgians and Dutch owned up to their children and tell them zwarte piet will be changing due to racial history behind the charachter and the time he was created, children can handle the truth!

it's not about putting immigrant WAYS before yours, it's about understanding why YOUR ways might be insulting and disrespectful to the peoples of the old slave colonies of the dutch empire........ surely just a little bit of respect.

[Xumpy]

Can't understand why people are so upset.

Is it because zwarte piet is black. When he would be white it's not a problem.
So black people can not play him anymore. Ow sorry my friend you can't play with us, your to black. Who's the real racist behind this?

Or is it because he was a moor?? So people can not impersonate each other.

Again, I don't know off anyone who's oppose to this cultural tradition instead of some so called world improvers that can only complain about little things and never even attended a sinterklaas feast.

We respect zwarte piet! Not laugh at him!

edit: Why is it any different from a Muslim woman who refuses to take off here veil. It's just a stupid sharp. If you take it your way then it might be an insult for all the woman who fought hard to get woman rights in the world.
But then again, I don't see it this way and I have respect for their ways and their believes!

Perhaps I would be more open minded when we change little things about him. Take away his earrings, change it into something else, maybe make his lips less red or something like that and I would agree. But the black is camouflage so our children wouldn't recognize it's actually us.

edit2: Are you really suggesting teaching children what a racist is???