IS IT WORTH IT TO INCREASE THE SIZE OF YOUR FARM?

[dmwardjr]

You obviously put a lot of thought into this post but...

No, didn't take much thought at all.  Why?  Did it really have to take a lot of thought?  Do you even know me?  Why do you have to choose words or phrases that are condescending?

Do you presume I'm ignorant or something based off what you have read in my post?  Can you not have an open mind instead of being focused on your own bitcoin mining intellectualism?  For all I know, you post this garb on here in the hopes that others who read will not mine or will not continue to mine.

I already had the pictures on my desktop from this same discussion in other forums and PM's.

You don't seem to realize that mining, in the longterm, is a zero sum game. If BTC hits $900 again (and holds), all of the ASIC manufacturers will quickly fill their current DCs with more efficient equipment and build new DCs all with access to much cheaper electricity than you could ever dream of getting.

You act like THEY will have a corner on the Billions of dollars worth yet to mine.  You act like the pools won't be able to mine another block after they do this.  That's why we have pools.  There is power in numbers.

In the future there may be brief periods where there is a gap between higher price BTC and build-out of new DCs, just as there was last fall. And you may have good profitability during those times. But those periods will likely get shorter because the ASIC manufacturers are able to build-out more quickly and efficiently.

That's why I'm getting ahead of the game while I can in terms of how much equipment I have to get well ahead of the difficulty and the revenue I want to bring home each month.  I'm adding an S4 if not an S5 to my small farm every month until end of April.  After April, I'm adding two S4's if not an S5 to my small farm every month until I have a 50 to 180 Th/s.

I spent $4,000.00 for 16 Bitmain Antminer S3's.  They mined enough BTC to buy an S4.  It only cost me $364.00 in electricity that I paid out of pocket to buy that S4.  

The way I see it, I got that S4 for $364.00 out of pocket.  I'm putting off the $4000.00 pay off of the S3's till a later date.  I'm paying for my electricity out of pocket and using all mined BTC to purchase more S4's or S5's.  So, like I said, I'm getting my S4's or S5's at a discount (the cost of electricity out of pocket to mine them).  

I'm PUTTING OFF paying the $4,000.00 initial investment until my mining revenue is much higher.  Once it gets to the point that my electricity is approximately $1,000.00 in costs each month, I will stop paying for the electricity out of pocket and use my mined BTC to pay for it.  That point in time will be end of April.  

At the end of April I will have approximately six (6) S4's and sixteen (16) S3's for a total of approximately 19.4 Th/s if not over clocked. At present difficulty, 19.6 Th/s can mine approximately 0.24722657 BTC per day.  That is approximately 7.4167971 BTC every 30 days.  You and I both know that difficulty will not remain at 39.5 billion.  It will climb.  How much?  Who knows?  The point is that puts me well ahead of the game IN THE BEGINNING before I'm even concerned about paying myself back for investment.  Keep in mind, I got my S4's if not S5's at a discount (what I paid in electricity costs).

7.4167971 BTC at present is approximately $3,142.79 with BTC price at $423.74 US.

Maybe you wish to argue that the difficulty will rise and I will not continue those profits?

Here is my argument:

For every 1 Billion the difficulty rises, the price of BTC can off set that rise in difficulty if it goes up .97519807% (approximately 1%).

Here is my proof:

Note the difficulty in the top left of the conversion calculator is at 39,629,645,941 THEN note that I added 1 billion to the difficulty at the next screen shot.  However, the revenue per time frame is approximately the same.  Why?  Because I raised the price of BTC .97519807% (approximately 1%); which see.  I raised the price of BTC from $424.65 US to $435.45 US.  We cannot say the price has to rise approximately $11.00 US every time the difficulty goes up 1 Billion.  We have to say it in percentages.

The reason I have $7,984 in equipment costs and not $4,000.00 is to include what I paid in electricity to get up to 19.4 Th/s; along with an exhaust fan, switch, etc...

ALSO NOTICE IT SAYS HARDWARE BREAK EVEN SHORTLY AFTER 100 DAYS FROM THE POINT OF ACHIEVING 19.4 Th/s.  That is IF I decided to stop adding another rig to my farm!







I understand if the difficulty goes up, we mine less bitcoin and need to add more hashing power IF the price of bitcoin remains the same.  However, if the price of bitcoin rises approximately 1% for every 1 billion the difficulty rises, it is offset.  Isn't it?  If I'm wrong, please let me know.

We simply can not compete with ASIC manufacturers. Home mining is and always will be a horrible longterm investment even if BTC gets to $2000. Only a few individuals who perfectly time the market may be able to earn a positive return.

Sorry, but YES WE CAN.  That's why we have pools.  There is power in pools.  So what we don't make as much money as the big gigantic farms do.  I'm not trying to build a gigantic farm.  I cannot compete with them if I cannot obtain rigs at the same price they do.  I'm not trying to compete ON THAT LEVEL.  I'm simply working to get 50 to 180 TH/s as quickly as possible cause I'm betting the price of BTC will continue to rise at a slightly higher percentage than 1% for every 1 billion the difficulty rises.


POSTS WERE DELETED ON THIS FIRST PAGE IN THE FORUM IN RESPONSE TO OTHERS WHO SEEMED MORE INTERESTING IN CUTTING ME DOWN RATHER THAN HONESTLY TRYING TO INFORM.  I GOT UPSET AND SAID SOME THINGS I SHOULDN'T HAVE.  THERE RESPONSES [IN THE BEGINNING] DID GET ME TO DO MORE INVESTIGATING AND MORE MATH TO DO MY SETUP IN A SAFER MANNER.  I DELETED EVERYTHING, THEN I ENDED UP REPOSTING RESPONSES IN A MORE RESPECTFUL MANNER.  PLEASE FORGIVE THE DISORGANIZATION OF THIS FORUM THE FIRST 16 POSTS.  IT GETS MORE ORGANIZED AFTER THE 16TH POST.

MORE SUPPORTED INFORMATION IS GIVEN BY MYSELF LATER IN THE FORUM.  ESPECIALLY, ON PAGE 2.

I POINT OUT HOW "HARDWARE BREAK EVEN" IS ACTUALLY CUT SHORTER WITH MORE EQUIPMENT THAN LESS; PROVIDING THE EQUIPMENT WAS BOUGHT AT A GOOD PRICE WITH LOW POWER COSTS.  

I POINT OUT THAT WE CAN INCREASE OR DECREASE THE NUMBER OF DAYS ON "HARDWARE BREAK EVEN" BASED ON WHAT PERCENTAGE THE DIFFICULTY GOES UP OR DOWN IN RELATION TO HOW MUCH  OF A PERCENTAGE THE PRICE OF BITCOIN HAS GONE UP OR DOWN FROM THE PREVIOUS TIME THE DIFFICULTY CHANGED.  WHAT EVER THE DIFFERENCE IS IN PERCENTAGE BETWEEN BITCOIN PRICE AND DIFFICULTY, ONE CAN INCREASE OR DECREASE THE NUMBER OF DAYS IN THAT PERCENTAGE TO "HARDWARE BREAK EVEN."  THIS ASSUMES YOU HAVE NOT SOLD OR SPENT THE BITCOIN YOU HAVE MINED WHEN THE PRICE AND DIFFICULTY HAS CHANGED.  THERE ARE MANY VARIABLES TO CONSIDER IN THIS CALCULATION.

[ferdinant]

It is worthit if you have place where to put them and free electricity.

[mavericklm]

better that u made yout own thread
''free'' electricity!
curious about forming a big farm too, too bad your prices wil not be the same as mine, except miner and btc price

[mavericklm]

the price here is too high!
ideal, i think, is to find a hydroelectric power location and make a farm right there
this is a very free forum, not much deleting around here!

[mavericklm]

thinking of a stirling engine powered with combustible trash and helped with heat from sun

[dropt]

Personally I think you're jumping through mental hoops to justify your plans.  Further, where you going get 108kW of infrastructure for this 180TH?  You're not going to put that in your garage/basement.

[dropt]

Personally I think you're jumping through mental hoops to justify your plans.  Further, where you going get 108kW of infrastructure for this 180TH?  You're not going to put that in your garage/basement.

Already have 120 AMPS available from my existing 200 AMP service.  That would be (4) 240V/30AMP outlets with 5 S4's on each PDU for a total of 20 S4's (40 Th/s)

Alabama power said they could run another underground service cable and install a second service meter with 240V/400AMPS for $2,500 to $3,000 if it is approximately 130 to 150 feet run going underneath one street and my driveway to the house like I told them.

400 AMPS [...]

108kW needs ~ 450A @ 240V.  Since you need to derate by 80%, you need ~ 562.5A.  That gives you 37.5A overhead.   If you use your oven while your laundry is drying, you're going to throw the breaker, not even considering average daily usage from lights and junk like that.

There is a 14 inch Can Fan Max with 1820 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of suction for this 122 cubic feet closet.  You also see a 16 inch return near the ceiling in the back where the 14 inch Can Fan Max is connected feeding into the garage.  [Working on duct work to feed the hot air to the outside from the garage.]  This is a youtube video on the 14 inch Can Fan Max:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DxbWXo4dF4

You also see an 8000 BTU Air Conditioner installed in the back wall coming from the garage.  It is quiet and a helpful addition to keep this closet cool.  You will also notice a 16" x 25" filtered grill in the closet door in the second picture.  This allows the 14 inch Can Fan Max to pull in TONS of cool air from the recreation room downstairs.  

A window is open just to the right of that closet door in the recreation room to allow the fan in the closet to suck cool air into the closet.  Enough air is sucked into this closet that it will blow your shirt over your head if you were standing in the closet without your shirt tucked into your pants.

And where are you going to be storing this 180TH?  It won't be in that closet with that AC unit and fan.

[dropt]

<too many words>

Here's a piece of advice.  Call an electrician and an HVAC guy.  Tell the electrician you want to run all these circuits (400A)+ at 97% continuous load, and tell the HVAC guy that you need to somehow handle the removal of 126kW of heat from your basement. 

Then, come back here and let us know what they told you.

[dropt]

No need to get an electrician, asshole!

And when you burn your house down from being an arrogant ass, what are you going to say to your insurance company when they ask you who pulled the permit and installed the infrastructure to run 126kW of space heaters in your basement?

I'm maxing out those three (3) 240V/30AMP circuits with five (5) S4's per circuit [97.22%] instead of four(4) per circuit.  That is 15 S4's leaving 75 more S4's to go.

Again with the 97% continuous loading I see.

As for HVAC, I can do that no problem out the windows I showed you without any duct work.  You will see asshole!

How do you know?  Where's the math?

[notlist3d]

Why such anger?   He likes mining as hobby you don't.  No need to bash each other.

[Korbman]

Jeez, this thread is pretty painful to read. Clearly OP is much wiser than us mining veterans. 

@dmwardjr -- You seem like you can do the math when it comes to outfitting your house with a fire hazard's worth of power equipment, but yet you still use online calculators to guess at how much money you *could* (operative word here) make mining Bitcoin? No detailed network projections or anything? I really hate to say it, but you're in for a rude awakening when you discover your breakeven period will be quite a bit longer than 100 days.

[notlist3d]

Go gang up on someone else.  Talk on you want and try to trash whom ever you want.  You'll see when it's all said and done.

And I was not meaning it twords you but ones giving you trouble.

Personally I think your doing one impressive overhaul to mine.

[Korbman]

Dude, y'all don't understand and I see he called y'all to come gang up on me so all of you can kiss my ass

Or, perhaps I frequent the Mining Speculation subforum and read some of the threads at the top of the list. You're welcome to continue with your conspiracy theories though.

And we all understand mining perfectly well around here. When we unanimously say "You're doing it wrong", we actually mean "You're doing it wrong".

[dmwardjr]

Dude, y'all don't understand and I see he called y'all to come gang up on me so all of you can kiss my ass

Or, perhaps I frequent the Mining Speculation subforum and read some of the threads at the top of the list. You're welcome to continue with your conspiracy theories though.

And we all understand mining perfectly well around here. When we unanimously say "You're doing it wrong", we actually mean "You're doing it wrong".

according to your response; why should anyone bother mining?  LOL

Read my responses at the bottom of this page and the next page in this forum.

[dmwardjr]

As far as I'm concerned, I'll increase the size of my farm and everyone else can leave theirs right where it is!

Then, when BTC goes up to $600 or more, I'll be laughing all the way to the bank while everyone else who didn't increase the size of their farm wishes they had.

[2112]

Why such anger?   He likes mining as hobby you don't.  No need to bash each other.

Because of the wife and 3 year old kid of dmwardjr.

Each engineer (like dropt) will have some ethical responsibility to warn the readers against duplicating the dangerous electrical work.

If that was just dmwardjr doing an elaborate suicide in private that would be OK. But here we have innocent wife and kid, and some readers that may attempt to do similarly dangerous "farm upgrade".

Edit: Lots of posts and pictures got deleted, so I'll do a quick summary: residential building, wood + plastic, basement looks "brick-like", but may be "decorative brick slices mounted on plywood". Owner brags about installing rosewood (and some other) wood panelling. Mentions wife and 3 y.o. kid living in the same structure. US electrical code requires derating to 80% load when installation doesn't have an "engineering supervision". Owner clearly isn't an engineer, makes rather simple mistakes in calculations, doesn't seem to be using any measurement equipment to verify and monitor his work. No firefighting equipment in sight. Essentially a tinderbox coffin and wind tunnel combo with an electrical ignition.

Don't do that at home.

[dmwardjr]

Personally I think you're jumping through mental hoops to justify your plans.  Further, where you going get 108kW of infrastructure for this 180TH?  You're not going to put that in your garage/basement.

Already have 120 AMPS available from my existing 200 AMP service.  That would be (4) 240V/30AMP outlets with 5 S4's on each PDU for a total of 20 S4's (40 Th/s)

Alabama power said they could run another underground service cable and install a second service meter with 240V/400AMPS for $2,500 to $3,000 if it is approximately 130 to 150 feet run going underneath one street and my driveway to the house like I told them.

400 AMPS [...]

108kW needs ~ 450A @ 240V.  Since you need to derate by 80%, you need ~ 562.5A.  That gives you 37.5A overhead.   If you use your oven while your laundry is drying, you're going to throw the breaker, not even considering average daily usage from lights and junk like that.

All of that re-addressed here:


D. Number of Services and Meters:
1. The Company shall connect only one service drop or service lateral to a building or structure for each class of service except as permitted by the National Electrical Code.
2. Only one watt-hour meter shall be installed per Customer per class of service except as explained in item #1 above. IN NO CASE SHALL METER READINGS OF TWO OR MORE WATT-HOUR METERS BE COMBINED FOR BILLING PURPOSES.

This means they would replace the existing with what I need; as well as the gauge wire.


F. Metering Installations Where The Service Rating Is Greater Than 225 Amperes
1. On Single Phase service: Where the service ampacity rating is greater than 225 amperes, but not over 400 amperes, a self contained class 320 ampere meter socket furnished by the Company shall be used on 1-Phase 120/240 or 120/208 volt service. When the service ampacity rating is greater than 400 amperes, but not exceeding 600 amperes, the preferred method of metering is a transocket. When the service ampacity is greater than 600 amperes, current transformers shall be used.
2. On 3 Phase service: When service ampacity is greater than 225 amperes and less than 600 amperes, the preferred method of metering is a transocket. The 3-Phase transocket is provided with a 600 MCM dual rated two port non-rotational connector on line and load side of the transocket. When the wire size to be used is larger than the capacity of the connectors provided by the Company, a current transformer installation shall be used rather than the transocket. When the service ampacity is greater than 600 amperes, current transformers shall be used. 4w 3ph Class 320 amp self contained services are not allowed by the Company.

I don't see the power company installing a current transformer in my yard to feed my house.  There is a current transformer across the street in a locked metal cabinet on the ground.  All of the utilities in my neighborhood are buried.  I know a current transformer doesn't come cheap; with the labor and costs.  The power company is already going to want to know if I'm running a business out of my home when I ask for a 600 AMP service and meter upgrade to the house.  I'm sure I will need to show them my rigs to show them I'm not running a business, this is for myself [an individual] as an investment and not a business.  Cost per kWH for a business is almost twice the cost for a residence.

I'm limited pretty much to 600 AMPS.



I will replace 6 of the 8 120V/20A circuits in my existing 200 AMP breaker panel I installed for my present set up.  They will be replaced with three (3) 240V/30A circuits.  However, I will only have four (4) S4's on each one of these instead of five (5).  Why?  Because I do not want to trip the 200 AMP Main breaker when I'm cooking, the dryer is on and the AC kicks on during the summertime.  

I'm going to just use 70.2 AMPS out of my present 200 AMPS for rigs.  Once I approach using that 70.2 AMPS as I add more rigs, it will be time to call the power company.  If I try to add more, I know the Main Breaker will risk tripping.

These 3 240V/30A circuits will have 3 240V/30A metered PDU's:

16 S3's I presently have will be on PDU #1:  Each of my S3's burn 370 watts on average [with PSU] at the wall x 16 S3's = 5,680 watts of the 7,200 watts allowed for this circuit. [23.6 AMPS]

4 S4's on PDU #2:  Each S4 burns 1400 watts on average at the wall x 4 = 5,600 watts of the 7,200 watts allowed for each of the two 240V/30A circuits.  [46.6 AMPS]

This brings the total AMPS used to 70.2 AMPS with 90 AMP's total in Breakers.  So, don't think I'm using the full 90 AMPS.

I can install 600 AMP Panel to the left of my present 200 AMP panel if the Power Company will give me 600 AMP service.  I believe they will.  I would pay an electrician to handle making my existing 200 AMP panel a sub panel off of the 600 AMP panel BUT the 600 AMP panel would have 16 30 AMP breakers in it.  Does that mean I will use every single amp in each of those 30 AMP breakers?  No!  I would burn 5,600 watts [23.3 AMPS] of each one of those 30 AMP [7,200 watt] breakers.  5,600 watts x 16 = 89,600 watts or 373.3 AMPS.  All of this inspected of course.  I would even have the inspector inspect the wiring going to the recreation room for my set up in there.  This way I KNOW I'm still covered with my home owners insurance.  

All of my light bulbs in the house are LED except for one.  It is a lamp with a 3 position switch to choose 3 different brightnesses.  All of my lights outside of the house are LED.  Even my flood lights outside are LED.

16 outlets x 4 S4's = 65 S4's x 2 Th/s = 130 Th/s

So, on the 200 AMP existing panel I will have 8 S4's and 16 S3's working off three 240V/30A PDU's.  Those 16 S3's may be replaced with 4 S4's in the future.  With the S3's, that would be 7.4 Th/s + 16 Th/s (S4's) = 23.4 Th/s.

Potentially 153.4 Th/s total.

The first 23.4 Th/s may take 6 to 12 months.  It depends on how the price of BTC does.  I'm not saying I will add a 600 AMP service meter and Main Panel in the next 6 to 12 months by no means.  I wish I could.  It depends on the amount of work I get next year and the price of Bitcoin.  I'm betting it goes to the moon soon.  Especially, by the middle of 2015.

As for my wife, 3 year old and myself, we will be just fine no matter what.  I'm not sure how many watts max the power company will let me have at the house.  However, I'm hoping it will be 600 like they say in their rules and specifications.  If they are getting paid for it; it's been inspected and approved; why not let me have it?

[dmwardjr]

There is a 14 inch Can Fan Max with 1820 Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of suction for this 122 cubic feet closet.  You also see a 16 inch return near the ceiling in the back where the 14 inch Can Fan Max is connected feeding into the garage.  [Working on duct work to feed the hot air to the outside from the garage.]  This is a youtube video on the 14 inch Can Fan Max:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DxbWXo4dF4

You also see an 8000 BTU Air Conditioner installed in the back wall coming from the garage.  It is quiet and a helpful addition to keep this closet cool.  You will also notice a 16" x 25" filtered grill in the closet door in the second picture.  This allows the 14 inch Can Fan Max to pull in TONS of cool air from the recreation room downstairs.  

A window is open just to the right of that closet door in the recreation room to allow the fan in the closet to suck cool air into the closet.  Enough air is sucked into this closet that it will blow your shirt over your head if you were standing in the closet without your shirt tucked into your pants.

And where are you going to be storing this 180TH?  It won't be in that closet with that AC unit and fan.

In this 12.5' x 25' x 8' recreation room.  You see the data/mining closet at the back [which is where the garage is as well].  The black paint on the wall was where I painted iron spindles for my staircase.  In the middle of refurbishing my house I purchased as a refurbish.  It's a mess right now because it has been used for storage.  I'm putting plywood over the entire attic space.  most of this stuff will be in the attic soon.

[dmwardjr]

No need to get an electrician, asshole!

And when you burn your house down from being an arrogant ass, what are you going to say to your insurance company when they ask you who pulled the permit and installed the infrastructure to run 126kW of space heaters in your basement?

I'm maxing out those three (3) 240V/30AMP circuits with five (5) S4's per circuit [97.22%] instead of four(4) per circuit.  That is 15 S4's leaving 75 more S4's to go.

Again with the 97% continuous loading I see.

As for HVAC, I can do that no problem out the windows I showed you without any duct work.  You will see asshole!

How do you know?  Where's the math?

Using 4 exhaust Can Max Fan's @ 1786 CFM.  Two in each of the windows you see in the recreation room.

The recreation room is 12.5' x 25' x 8' = 2,500 Cubic Feet (CF).

4 Can Max Fan's @ 1786 CFM = 7,144 CFM

Trust me, they will be enough!

Check out this youtube video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DxbWXo4dF4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DxbWXo4dF4





I already have one in the data/mining closet, which see:

[dmwardjr]

Jeez, this thread is pretty painful to read. Clearly OP is much wiser than us mining veterans. 

@dmwardjr -- You seem like you can do the math when it comes to outfitting your house with a fire hazard's worth of power equipment, but yet you still use online calculators to guess at how much money you *could* (operative word here) make mining Bitcoin? No detailed network projections or anything? I really hate to say it, but you're in for a rude awakening when you discover your breakeven period will be quite a bit longer than 100 days.

That break even period was for someone who stopped at the number of rigs I mentioned in the beginning of this forum.

I'm wanting much more that what was mentioned at the beginning of the forum.  So, yes, my break even will change over time.  I'm buying my rigs at a discount!  Meaning what I paid in my electric bill for kWH's to get the BTC needed for another unit is how much I actually paid for that new unit.

You do agree with that don't you?

After you answer that question, we can continue...

[Korbman]

That break even period was for someone who stopped at the number of rigs I mentioned in the beginning of this forum.

That's the beauty of these kinds of calculations; when brought down to just the hardware, power costs, and network difficulty, the math scales. If you buy a mining rig for $1 with a breakeven of 100 days, you can buy 100 rigs and expect the same breakeven time frame.

However, this isn't the reality of the situation, because as you scale up you'll have additional expenses (cooling, space, insurance, and everything else already noted here). In other words, 1 rig @ 100 days BE != 100 rigs @ 100 days BE. The only way equal scaling is possible is if the hardware discount received (when buying in bulk) is equal to the expenses generated by scaling up the operation.

I'm wanting much more that what was mentioned at the beginning of the forum. 

That may be true, but you're not seeing all of the major problems that come with buying more gear. You're plan is to start off running equipment in your 312.5ft² recreation room, which would be outfitted with enough power capacity to run a small neighborhood, and cooled only by several exhaust fans. Even if you moved everything to a 1000ft² attic, that's still an absolutely terrible idea.

I'm buying my rigs at a discount!  Meaning what I paid in my electric bill for kWH's to get the BTC needed for another unit is how much I actually paid for that new unit.

You do agree with that don't you?

Perhaps it's the phrasing of that sentence, but no, I do not agree.

[dmwardjr]

That break even period was for someone who stopped at the number of rigs I mentioned in the beginning of this forum.

That's the beauty of these kinds of calculations; when brought down to just the hardware, power costs, and network difficulty, the math scales. If you buy a mining rig for $1 with a breakeven of 100 days, you can buy 100 rigs and expect the same breakeven time frame.

However, this isn't the reality of the situation, because as you scale up you'll have additional expenses (cooling, space, insurance, and everything else already noted here). In other words, 1 rig @ 100 days BE != 100 rigs @ 100 days BE. The only way equal scaling is possible is if the hardware discount received (when buying in bulk) is equal to the expenses generated by scaling up the operation.

I'm wanting much more that what was mentioned at the beginning of the forum.

That may be true, but you're not seeing all of the major problems that come with buying more gear. You're plan is to start off running equipment in your 312.5ft² recreation room, which would be outfitted with enough power capacity to run a small neighborhood, and cooled only by several exhaust fans. Even if you moved everything to a 1000ft² attic, that's still an absolutely terrible idea.

I'm buying my rigs at a discount!  Meaning what I paid in my electric bill for kWH's to get the BTC needed for another unit is how much I actually paid for that new unit.

You do agree with that don't you?

Perhaps it's the phrasing of that sentence, but no, I do not agree.

Fair enough.  It's a free world on the internet.  For most anyways.

You are entitled to your opinion on this free internet forum.  Let others who read decide.

[dropt]

You are entitled to you opinion on this free internet forum.

Here's another of my opinions.  If you're seriously interested in owning 100+ TH of mining equipment, strongly consider colocation.

Ex: http://toom.im/

They'll be slightly more per kW per month than you'd be paying in straight power, but you won't have any of the headaches of a large farm in your house, which there are many.

[dmwardjr]

That break even period was for someone who stopped at the number of rigs I mentioned in the beginning of this forum.

That's the beauty of these kinds of calculations; when brought down to just the hardware, power costs, and network difficulty, the math scales. If you buy a mining rig for $1 with a breakeven of 100 days, you can buy 100 rigs and expect the same breakeven time frame.

However, this isn't the reality of the situation, because as you scale up you'll have additional expenses (cooling, space, insurance, and everything else already noted here). In other words, 1 rig @ 100 days BE != 100 rigs @ 100 days BE. The only way equal scaling is possible is if the hardware discount received (when buying in bulk) is equal to the expenses generated by scaling up the operation.

"Cooling" - That's the beauty of scaling up during the winter; as it is at present!

space - I've already shown you I have PLENTY of extra space [12.5' x 25' x 8' = 2,500 Cubic Feet (CF)] in a room downstairs that my family never uses.  Our family room is 18' x 22' x 8' = 3,168 Cubic Feet (CF).  That is where we spend the majority of our time as a family during the winter months.  We would rather be outside most of the time during the warmer months.

insurance Even if one needed to add their equipment on their home owners insurance, the costs are miniscule annually.  I have a business out of my home that has insurance on equipment in my office in the event of burglary, fire, etc.  The insurance is miniscule annually.  It's not a bad idea for anyone to have important documents, receipts, etc... in a fire safe in their home and/or safety deposit box to show support for the costs of equipment to insurance when filing a claim in the event of a catastrophe.  

In other words, 1 rig @ 100 days BE != 100 rigs @ 100 days BE. The only way equal scaling is possible is if the hardware discount received (when buying in bulk) is equal to the expenses generated by scaling up the operation.

Tell me something:

WHY can't rigs #1 - #16 with Air Conditioner, 14 inch exhaust fan, PDU's, Cords, supplies to build shelves, outlets, 10/2 wiring, etc. @ $5,200.00 be put off at a later date for pay off?

WHY can't I just pay power costs ($364.00) [Like I did the first time] to purchase an S4?  Then my number of days till payoff STARTS OVER at the date I purchased the S4 with the BTC I earned?  Also, my investment has increased from $5,200.00 to $5,564.00.  Actually, my pay off will be SOONER because:

#1 - I purchased the S4 at a discount.
#2 - I have more hashing power with the S4 and able to pay off in LESS TIME.  Only my pay off starts over from the date of purchase of the S4.

I'm about to order THREE (3) more S4's with cash and btc, all before the end of this month (November 30th) and my 118 days STARTS OVER (November 14)?  I have three (3) $400.00 OFF COUPONS OF S4 in my Bitmaintech.com account.  I have 1.4 BTC in my wallet earned since my purchase of that 1st S4.  I will end up mining at least another .6 BTC to 1.2 BTC before November 30 to put towards the purchase of those three S4's @ $850.00 each.  

The power costs used since ordering and receiving that S4 (Oct. 17) until Nov. 17 is 31 days x 24 hours = 744 hours:

Air Conditioner is off in the closet at 0 watts x 744 hours = $    0.00
16 S3's at 370 watts each [5,920 watts] + 232 watts for 14" exhaust fan [6,152 watts used from Oct. 17 to Nov. 14 = 28 days] =  $359.52 at .08 per kWH
S4 @ 1400 watts from Nov. 14 to Nov. 17 = $6.21 at .08 per kWH
Total power costs from Oct. 17 to Nov. 17 = $365.73 at .08 per kWH  [My billing cycle ends on the 17th of every month]
Power costs each day with 1 S4 and 16 S3's - $365.73 divided by 30.3 average days each month = $12.07 per day power costs at .08 kWH

Nov. 17 to Nov. 30 = 13 days x $12.07 per day = $156.91 + $365.73 from the previous 30 days = $522.64 that will have been spent on power costs up till I add 3 more S4's @ $850.00 + $140 shipping = $990.00each.

I will have approximately 2.0 BTC to put towards the purchase of 3 S4's totaling $2,970.00 + $5,564.00 = $8,534.00 yet to be paid off.

16 S3's @ 7.4 Th/s = 4 S4's @ 8 Th/s = 15.4 Th/s

ALSO:

16 S3's @ 5,290 watts + 4 S4's @ 5,600 watts = 10,290 watts + 230 watts for 14 inch exhaust fan = 10,510 watts @ .08 kWH = $614.20 power costs per 30.3 day period.

With BTC @ $391.65 presently and the difficulty at the next projected level of 40,658,945,677 the profit after power costs per 30.3 day period = $1,610.39





Yes, the difficulty will go up every couple of weeks.  However, what if the price of bitcoin goes up as well?  The projections of professional analysts at https://whaleclub.jit.su/posts see BTC getting as high as $650.00 US by May or June.  They are projecting BTC to be approximately $425 over the next couple of days if it maintains it's bullish mood.  I'm showing one profitability chart at $391.65 with 40,658,945,677 difficulty (above) and the second profitability chart at $425.00 with the same projected next difficulty.  The projected payoff period is approximately 156 days.  However, this is an estimate.  BTC could go up significantly or down significantly.  I'm betting on up significantly.  If down, then down a little.



If one doubts this profitability based on this chart, lets look at it another way:



Revenue on Eligius Pool with 15.43 Th/s is 0.19597313 BTC per day [Look in top right hand corner].  I've mined their off and on and my 7.4 Th/s got a little better than their projected 0.09 per day. because of luck.  So, these stats are legitimate.

IF I mined at Eligius Pool with 15.43 Th/s and brought in a projected revenue of .19597313 BTC per day, that would be 5.93798584 BTC  [$2,325.61 w/BTC @ $391.65] if multiplied by 30.3 days on average in a month at present difficulty.

$2,325.61 - $614.20 power costs = $1,711.41 at present difficulty.  That is $88.00 less than the Profitability calculator over a 30.3 day period.  

I say the calculator is not a bad tool to determine projected profits and how long to pay off equipment.  If I was to stop right here and not add any more equipment, it would take 156 days to pay off POSSIBLY.  It could be less it could be more.  WHY?  Depends on how much difficulty goes up or down AND it depends on how much the price of BTC goes up or down.  

If difficulty increased 2% the next change and the price of bitcoin increased 6% from the previous difficulty change to the present difficulty change, we could take off 4% in days from our pay off length.  Of course this would be done each time the difficulty changes.  Of course, we would take add to the number of days till pay off if the percentage of the price of BTC was less than the percentage of the difficulty increase or decrease.  It's possible they could both decrease.  Yet, more days are tacked on to pay off period because the price of BTC [percentage wise] decreased more than the difficulty [percentage wise].

You can agree or disagree with my calculations.  That is fine.  Let the readers decide.

By the way,  I had completely different costs with 19.2 Th/s and lower difficulty factored in at the beginning of this forum.  Also, the price of BTC at the beginning of this forum was more than what it is now.  I'm using the calculations of what the price is NOW and what the NEXT projected difficulty will be according to Bitcoinwisdom.com.  So, the reason the pay off period is more than what was seen previously at the beginning of this forum is because the complete investment costs were not inputted and the price of BTC was more then than what it is now [2 days later].

[dmwardjr]

ALSO #1:

If one wants to SHORTEN THEIR PAY OFF PERIOD, simply don't buy more equipment for how ever many days you want to eat off of the pay off period.  Save your money, trade on the exchange with your earnings or whatever you want to do with it.

Once your BTC is converted into fiat and fiat is hand, do whatever you want to do with it.  You earned it.  It's up to us what we want to do with it.

ALSO #2:

At present I have 9.4 Th/s.  You see my total costs of hardware at this point in time entered in the proper place.  You see the hash rate and price of BTC at $425.00.  You also see the difficulty set to the projected next difficulty.  The difficulty is the same in both calculation charts you will see below.  The BTC price is the same.  The hash rate and cost of equipment is what is different.

YOU WILL NOTICE THE HARDWARE BREAK EVEN PERIOD IS LESS [180 days vs. 156 days] WITH MORE EQUIPMENT RATHER THAN LESS EQUIPMENT.

This would be another reason to argue it is worth getting more equipment IF you can get it at a good price and it's power consumption is low.

[dmwardjr]

You are entitled to you opinion on this free internet forum.

Here's another of my opinions.  If you're seriously interested in owning 100+ TH of mining equipment, strongly consider colocation.

Ex: http://toom.im/

They'll be slightly more per kW per month than you'd be paying in straight power, but you won't have any of the headaches of a large farm in your house, which there are many.

I see $80 per kW for 12 months and $99 for 1 month.  First off, this leads me to believe $80 per month for 12 months OR $99 for just 1 month per kW.  Is that right?

I'm lead to believe people will send there equipment to you to let you use it to mine for them?

[dropt]

I see $80 per kW for 12 months and $99 for 1 month.  First off, this leads me to believe $80 per month for 12 months OR $99 for just 1 month per kW.  Is that right?

$80 per kW if you sign a one-year term if I understand correctly. $99 if you just want to have a month-to-month deal.

I'm lead to believe people will send there equipment to you to let you use it to mine for them?

It's not my operation, but you can message one of the owners here under "jtoomim".  I assume you have the HW shipped to them, they install it in their racks, plug it in and set it up on their network.  Then, you either provide them with the pool and worker credentials and they'll configure your HW to mine for you, or they'll allow you to access the equipment yourself to manage it remotely via IP.  All they're doing is leasing you space and power in their data centre.

[dmwardjr]

Okay,

Thanks for the info.

It's an option to consider if I want to go beyond the limits the power company limits me to. 

Please forgive me for using foul language towards you earlier.  My apologies!  I would rather have one be a little more tactful at trying to convince me though.  Doesn't mean I'm trying to justify my language towards you by no means.  No one deserves to be cursed out even if I think that someone might be disrespectful or condescending in their word or phrase choices.  I still need to work on my temper a bit...

I'm pretty sure the power company will give me 600 AMPS at my meter.  They will wonder if it is a business ran out of the home because of the amount of power I'm requesting.  I'm sure I will need to convince them it's not a business and it's for personal use with bitcoin mining.  They charge a business almost twice as much for power than they do a residence.  They will wonder if I'm running a business out of my home.  I do have a business I run out of my home.  However, this bitcoin mining is for myself and I'm not writing off anything I've spent for business expenses.

Again, thank you for the info and it's something to consider.

Regards,

David

[dmwardjr]

You did help me double check myself to determine the safest way to wire up everything depending on what the power company will give me.

I was thinking out loud, more or less, in my aspirations to mine bitcoin.  The Th/s I wanted at first would have required 700 AMPS minimum.  After going to my power company's website, i know they are going to limit me to 600 AMPS at a residence.  Only under unusual circumstances will they put more than 600 AMPS at a residence.  Saying the residence is 20,000 square feet, which would require a transformer service installed next to the home.

Thanks again for getting me to do some research on my power company's rules and regulations regarding a residence and getting me to double check how many S4's I would have on each circuit to achieve maximum hashing power in the safest way possible.

[philipma1957]

don't come close to 600 amps.

I worked for the IRS 6 or 7 years.  My mom worked for them 29 years my wife worked for them 33 years.

I mine and claim as a small business since I make a profit. i run about 5k watts as i type about  7th

If you ramp up to 600 amps and use 400 amps  mining it will be considered a sole proprietor  schedule c   business.

Stay under 400 to 600 a month in power.

all the money you would buy gear with don't so this instead.  if you buy an s-4 for 3 coins buy 4 coins from your coin dealer.  I use coinbase.

you will be more diverse and  less likely to attract attention from your power company.

[dmwardjr]

don't come close to 600 amps.

I worked for the IRS 6 or 7 years.  My mom worked for them 29 years my wife worked for them 33 years.

I mine and claim as a small business since I make a profit. i run about 5k watts as i type about  7th

If you ramp up to 600 amps and use 400 amps  mining it will be considered a sole proprietor  schedule c   business.

Stay under 400 to 600 a month in power.

all the money you would buy gear with don't so this instead.  if you buy an s-4 for 3 coins buy 4 coins from your coin dealer.  I use coinbase.

you will be more diverse and  less likely to attract attention from your power company.

Thumbs up!

Thank you

Have a business!  It's incorporated!  I'm a contractor out of my home training telephone technicians.  I also do various other things for profit with my business out of my home.  My company bought the rigs.  The rigs are written off as an expense [with depreciation over time of course].  The power consumed by the rigs is written off as an expense.  No need to go any further about what I'm doing regarding taxes for my company's mining rigs.  By the way, my wife is an accountant.

Just wanting to stay in my house with my company's rigs.  Power costs are double for a business in a commercial building.  That's the main reason I want to remain in my house.  I might go as far as to have a 2nd structure built on my property to house rigs and have a service transformer installed by the power company in the back yard next to the 2nd structure.

.08 for residential versus .15 for business

.097 for residential versus .158 for business from October to May; after you tack on taxes and fees.

.12 for residential versus .18 for business from June to September; after you tack on taxes and fees.
 

[Argwai96]

YOU WILL NOTICE THE HARDWARE BREAK EVEN PERIOD IS LESS [180 days vs. 156 days] WITH MORE EQUIPMENT RATHER THAN LESS EQUIPMENT.

Both of these calculations make certain assumptions about both price and difficulty (and electric cost). If any of them are wrong to your disadvantage then your profitability will be less and potentially negative; as a result you will need to take on additional risk in order to shorten your ROI timeframe

[dmwardjr]

YOU WILL NOTICE THE HARDWARE BREAK EVEN PERIOD IS LESS [180 days vs. 156 days] WITH MORE EQUIPMENT RATHER THAN LESS EQUIPMENT.

Both of these calculations make certain assumptions about both price and difficulty (and electric cost). If any of them are wrong to your disadvantage then your profitability will be less and potentially negative; as a result you will need to take on additional risk in order to shorten your ROI timeframe

Agreed.

This is based off my electric costs.  Yes, it assumes btc price in relation to diff will make mining REMAIN profitable.  That's why I also pointed out keeping up with the percentage difficulty goes up or down in relation to price of btc goes up or down.  This should be done every time the diff changes to determine profitability and time remaining on ROI.  


One should have already done calculations to determine if it is profitable for THEM to mine before getting into it for a profit.  Once one determines if it is profitable for them; based off electric costs, speculation of price of btc, difficulty and hashing power; they should then keep tabs with each time the diff changes in relation to btc price changes.  This, in turn, can also determine how many days they can take off or add to their ROI.

How much time one adds to or takes off from their "break even" date not only concerns the percentage Difficulty and Price of BTC goes up and/or down; it also involves what was the price of BTC when and/or if they convert to fiat.  Several things come into play when coming up with those percentages to determine how much time one adds to or takes off from their "break even" date.

Also, I understand why one who is involved with advertising CLOUD MINING would want to try to shoot down those who would advocate investing into their own equipment; versus your equipment through the cloud.