MT.Gox caught lying again

[casascius]

Are you able to buy and withdraw the BTC?  I'd buy a chunk of it off you, at least a fourth of it ($2500 worth) and pay by USD wire transfer.

[mufa23]

I currently have a little over $100 on MtGox. After completely verifying my account on both MtGox and Dwolla (Drivers license, SSN, etc.) I sent $5 from MtGox-->Dwolla to see if it would pass through before I send $100. Thankfully I read this (and other) threads before sending everything through. Would hate to have a hundred tied up. Can't imagine having thousands tied up for nearly a month with bullshit excuses. So if two weeks goes by, and it's still not going through, I'm withdrawing all my coins before MtGox crashes.

Although some good news and sorta off subject: verifying my account with MtGox was rather painless and done in a day or so. Dwolla took four days. Sent all the stuff in Monday, waited, then called them up Friday (yesterday) and they fixed it right on the phone within a minute.

[Inaba]

Sorry Casascius, I don't have access to the funds in any way, shape or form.  They are being held by MTGox without any recourse, explanation or estimate of when they will release them.  They have basically stolen $10,000.

[terrytibbs]

Sorry Casascius, I don't have access to the funds in any way, shape or form.  They are being held by MTGox without any recourse, explanation or estimate of when they will release them.  They have basically stolen $10,000.

dat delicious interest

Also, why did reeses delete their post?

[Inaba]

Another day, another MTGox fail. I'm sure it'll all come through tomorrow, right?  Right?

[bulanula]

Another day, another MTGox fail. I'm sure it'll all come through tomorrow, right?  Right?

subbing

[Inaba]

So I just got a request on my support ticket from MTGox:

Would you like to have your withdrawal cancelled and return the funds to your Mt.Gox account so that you can withdraw via other methods?

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

This, after almost a month of them holding my money (for a second time).  This is the second time they have tried/are canceling my large withdrawals.  This is a nice solution for them, because I would then have to pay a 4th time to convert the funds, and they get to skim yet another .5% off the top of my initial $26,000 for the privilege of converting it, yet again, to BTC.

I would say that pretty much confirms that MTGox is out of money.  They can't even handle $10,000 withdrawal.

I say this because if it were an AML thing and Dwolla was holding it, how would they be able to cancel it and "return" the money to me?  If it was being held for AML, they wouldn't be able to return it.  MTGox is the one "holding" it... and they are holding it because they can't pay it.

[julz]

So I just got a request on my support ticket from MTGox:

Would you like to have your withdrawal cancelled and return the funds to your Mt.Gox account so that you can withdraw via other methods?

Thanks,

MtGox.com Team

This, after almost a month of them holding my money (for a second time).  This is the second time they have tried/are canceling my large withdrawals.  This is a nice solution for them, because I would then have to pay a 4th time to convert the funds, and they get to skim yet another .5% off the top of my initial $26,000 for the privilege of converting it, yet again, to BTC.

I would say that pretty much confirms that MTGox is out of money.  They can't even handle $10,000 withdrawal.

I say this because if it were an AML thing and Dwolla was holding it, how would they be able to cancel it and "return" the money to me?  If it was being held for AML, they wouldn't be able to return it.  MTGox is the one "holding" it... and they are holding it because they can't pay it.

I don't see how you can make the claim that they couldn't cancel it.
I used an international wire transfer to send a few thousand dollars to mtgox a while back - and it arrived in their account in JPY - but I had selected in my Banking interface to send as USD.
Mtgox warned me that it had arrived in JPY and asked me whether I wanted it deposited in my mtgox JPY wallet or converted to USD at a fee.
I wasn't pleased about the multiple international conversion fees I would be charged - so mtgox suggested I ask my bank to cancel the transfer and rewire it with an explicit instruction to send in USD and not convert.
ie - the funds had actually arrived in their account, yet I was still able to cancel and resend so that it arrived to them as USD.
This ended up taking a few extra days rather than the usual 24-72 hrs.
I don't think any of this time was due to mtgox - it was all the manual processing involved between the various banks.

It seems entirely plausible to me that your money is in the hands of Dwolla awaiting their processing of whatever their AML policies are - and also quite a reasonable suggestion from mtgox that you authorise them to request their bank to put in a cancellation of the transfer from their end.

p.s I think various banks charge fees to cancel/amend international wire transfer requests. In the case where the mistake was made by your bank or intermediary bank and arrives in wrong currency - then presumably you wouldn't be charged.. but I'm not sure about cancellations.  Still - 'failure to arrive in beneficiary's account in a reasonable time frame' might be a good reason.
It strikes me that you should be asking DWOLLA where the money is anyway.

[julz]

Another day, another fail by MTGox.  They are still holding $10,000 and now refuse to even give me a time frame as to when it might be processed.  Though they helpfully stated that they would "let me know when it's processed."  Gee thanks... like I wouldn't know from Dwolla and the fact that, you know, my balance in Dwolla increased.

Well as per my story above, MtGox let me know when my money was in their Bank account, but not yet credited to my trading account.
Will Dwolla do the same?  Go on.. ask Dwolla support if the money is in *Dwolla's Bank account*. Let's see how they respond.

I find it stunning that you'd assume Dwolla is some sort of efficient, honest operation after the way they've treated various Bitcoin-related things.
Dwolla charge what.. 25c per transfer?  If anyone is on a shoestring and doing the dodgy it's likely them.

Bet your 10K is busy earning Dwolla interest while they faff about with their AML reporting.

[finway]

FUD?

[Inaba]

Well, my Dwolla withdrawal processed today, magically after I rejected the request to cancel it.  Took a bit over 3 weeks, NOT including the ~4 weeks the first failed withdrawal took to be canceled.

I'm basically free of MTGox now, and I will not be keeping any significant balance there ever again.  I've had good luck with Bitfloor so far, so I can tentatively recommend it going forward.

[LordGreynick]

FUD?

just about everyone is having some sort of off the wall crazy issues with gox. im still trying to find out why i was reported to the police...

You were reported to the police??! What the hell for?

[LordGreynick]

FUD?

just about everyone is having some sort of off the wall crazy issues with gox. im still trying to find out why i was reported to the police...

You were reported to the police??! What the hell for?

they suspected money laundering it seems. but there policy is they dont do it unless they have proof. so i have been trying to get them to give me info about this. i have no had time to respond to their last post hen they said they no longer think i am laundering money. proof must mean suspect in japan... there is a thread about it in the trade discussion, they stickied it i think.

Is that the one where they admitted they had screwed up (again)?

[LordGreynick]

FUD?

just about everyone is having some sort of off the wall crazy issues with gox. im still trying to find out why i was reported to the police...

You were reported to the police??! What the hell for?

they suspected money laundering it seems. but there policy is they dont do it unless they have proof. so i have been trying to get them to give me info about this. i have no had time to respond to their last post hen they said they no longer think i am laundering money. proof must mean suspect in japan... there is a thread about it in the trade discussion, they stickied it i think.

Is that the one where they admitted they had screwed up (again)?

they did admit they screwed up, but it does not fit their policy on when they call the police on their customers... i just want to know why they keep saying their policy is only when they have proof when they clearly did not have it. i also have asked many times about information to clear my name but no response. it is almost lawyer time:(

Think on this.

How much does Mt Gox have tied up in "OPM" (other people's money)

If they had a significant amount of this and were investing (winning? losing? who knows?) in other schemes ....

Its like insurance ... tie up the claim as long as possible. When you have (think scale here) a LOT of funds tied up, you can make a lot off what you're investing while fighting the people you're meant to be paying. You still pay (eventually) but get to use the funds in the interim. Not a good long term business model. Note I said "long term"

Some insurance companies can have 100s of millions tied up ... day by day, that's a lot of money they're earning.

Even at market term deposit rates, 10m USD can earn a significant amount per day for the holders of the funds

[deepceleron]

It has been said that if governments don't like Bitcoin, then one thing they can go after is the exchanges. The anti-money-laundering pressure is such government intervention; if you want to do business with banks, you have to comply, and eventually the Fed wants to regulate you directly. I'm sure the government doesn't like not having the level of access they do to banks, where governments basically have a wiretap of all ACH transfers flowing directly to them.

This does seem to be a liquidity problem at Goxx. However Dwolla probably aggravates this, they seems to be doing their own dirty tricks to their customers which might hold up funds going into and out of MtGox (as if simply stealthfully stealing money out of customer's accounts wasn't a dirty trick). In addition, MtGox has to spread and transfer it's government currencies between several different accounts - one person might deposit $10,000 into MtGox's bank account by wire transfer, and then another might want to withdraw $10,000 by Dwolla. You'd have to anticipate where the money is needed and transfer it strategically in advance; still with a disproportionate flow of funds, these internal transfers take time and continually use up liquidity.

MtGox can grab your money on the opposite site of money flow too - such as Dwolla money being transferred into MtGox and MtGox not making it available to you until you submit ID verification - your money is in MtGox's Dwolla account, but they have stolen it from you until you comply with their new policy. Note that ID verification is only forced on you when they can hold your money for ransom - a trick copied from Dwolla, the same trick that Dwolla has copied from the biggest evil of all, PayPal.

[LordGreynick]

FUD?

I've given Mt Gox all my ID. Everything I do with BTC investment is legit and has a paper trail. Including ID.

I acknowledge there are AML issues that BTC related organisations must face, but it seems that some of these companies are taking advantage of this to their own ends. The ends not relating to us customers in a positive way.

What is worse than FUD is when a business leverages its clients just for its profit. I have no problem with a business making money, but when MY money is held up for 21 days for no explainable reason that really annoys me.

[repentance]

they suspected money laundering it seems. but there policy is they dont do it unless they have proof. so i have been trying to get them to give me info about this. i have no had time to respond to their last post hen they said they no longer think i am laundering money. proof must mean suspect in japan... there is a thread about it in the trade discussion, they stickied it i think.

they did admit they screwed up, but it does not fit their policy on when they call the police on their customers... i just want to know why they keep saying their policy is only when they have proof when they clearly did not have it. i also have asked many times about information to clear my name but no response. it is almost lawyer time:(

I can't find a whole lot in English about Japan's specific reporting requirements, but elsewhere the requirement to report is triggered by suspicious activity (and your circumstances would have met that benchmark elsewhere so they may do so in Japan too).  Although it does have a financial intelligence unit, Japan's AML/CTF regulatory authority seems to operate as part of their police force (it's a separate entity in some countries).  I think they're using the word "proof" in a non-typical manner and that's creating confusion.

[julz]

Well, my Dwolla withdrawal processed today, magically after I rejected the request to cancel it.

Coincidences are like magic aren't they.
You'll see it how you *want* to see it I guess.

It's clear from this thread that you don't understand how inter-bank transfers work, and that your default assumption for any problem is 'gox dunnit'.

Good grief.  I don't doubt that mtgox have their fair share of inefficiencies - but this sort of ranting thread is just retarded.

[deepceleron]

Well, my Dwolla withdrawal processed today, magically after I rejected the request to cancel it.

Coincidences are like magic aren't they.
You'll see it how you *want* to see it I guess.

It's clear from this thread that you don't understand how inter-bank transfers work, and that your default assumption for any problem is 'gox dunnit'.

Good grief.  I don't doubt that mtgox have their fair share of inefficiencies - but this sort of ranting thread is just retarded.

Mr Potato Head. MtGox has a Dwolla account. Inaba has a Dwolla account. Moving some money from one to the other inside the Dwolla system can (and has) taken place instantly.

The fact that investors small and large are being hit with incredible delays and missing money reeks of big problems in the organization. There is nothing on the MtGox status page that indicates what the hell is going on - not that it matters though because I've caught mtgox pre-dating stuff they put up there by several days. MtGox has been as opaque as possible; they won't say what the problems are with withdrawls, they won't make available or return funds that are in their accounts even if the transfers were initiated pre-ID requirement, they won't describe how they will use and protect the identities that are being required of users. They are entering into the "do not trust" area where one might even anticipate a limited run on investor funds will be unable to be paid out. Withdraw your money now if you think you might need it mid-July (or later) would be the prudent advice to anyone that has government currency there.

[repentance]

The fact that investors small and large are being hit with incredible delays and missing money reeks of big problems in the organization. There is nothing on the MtGox status page that indicates what the hell is going on - not that it matters though because I've caught mtgox pre-dating stuff they put up there by several days. MtGox has been as opaque as possible; they won't say what the problems are with withdrawls, they won't make available or return funds that are in their accounts even if the transfers were initiated pre-ID requirement, they won't describe how they will use and protect the identities that are being required of users. They are entering into the "do not trust" area where one might even anticipate a limited run on investor funds will be unable to be paid out. Withdraw your money now if you think you might need it mid-July (or later) would be the prudent advice to anyone that has government currency there.

They've posted about the Dwolla problems.

Last month in May we processed 2,459 USD Dwolla withdrawals for a total of 2.17 million USD.
The number of delayed withdrawals are 8.54% of the total USD withdrawals and represent 13.25% of the 2.17 million USD through Dwolla.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87086.msg956588#msg956588