Long Live Proof-of-Work, Long Live Mining - "there is no meaningful alternative"

[steelhouse]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

POS can be superior however most of these alt POS are awful.  Fortunately the very 1st one pee pee coin is the best so far.  However it could have been made better with no inflation.  POS means people want to protect their existing coins.  The bitcoin network today is not really protected by miners, it is protected by the owners of the largest amounts of coins.  POS rewards those who keep their client open.

[Buffer Overflow]

So have we worked out which is the purple plants yet? POW or  POS?

[cryptogeeknext]

Long term, the cost of mining bitcoin will be in advanced chip R&D not power consumption -- and mining may not be Democratic. The company who invested the most in low power / high throughput ASICS may just horde their creation and dominate mining.

What prevents other players who feel enthusiastic and competitive from challenging the position of that dominant company? The creative urge for innovation is inherently decentralized.

With stakes however, once acquired, there is no amount of innovation or competition that would allow outside actors to regain control of the money flow from the established stakeholders, while they can maintain their position indefinitely at virtually no cost. Staking is a game of luck.

Thats quite incorrect. If that was the case it would have stopped at vanilla PoS, and there wouldn't have been innovations like TF, DPOS, PoI etc. You are also assuming that rich get richer in case of vanilla PoS, which is not the case in some of the variants.

No, rich-get-richer is not my concern, but once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever is.
So far I haven't seen proven mechanisms in PoS systems that would prevent that.

PoW, on the other hand, is inherently pro-competition as mining is naturally a break-even game.

[devphp]

So have we worked out which is the purple plants yet? POW or  POS?

To each their own (miners, users)

[cryptogeeknext]

So have we worked out which is the purple plants yet? POW or  POS?

There are two trains at the station right now and soon leaving:

One will get you to the place, where you can be free if you are willing to take care of yourself (PoW).
Another will take you to a more cosy place, where others take care about you (PoS).

It's not one or the other, they both exist and they are both valid, it's about which one would you ride.

[devphp]

There are two trains at the station right now and soon leaving:

One will get you to the place, where you can be free if you are willing to take care of yourself (PoW).
Another will take you to a more cosy place, where others take care about you (PoS).

It's not one or the other, they both exist and they are both valid, it's about which one would you ride.

what a bunch of bull, lol

[cryptogeeknext]

There are two trains at the station right now and soon leaving:

One will get you to the place, where you can be free if you are willing to take care of yourself (PoW).
Another will take you to a more cosy place, where others take care about you (PoS).

It's not one or the other, they both exist and they are both valid, it's about which one would you ride.

what a bunch of bull, lol

Prove me wrong?
I'm particularly interested in this one with PoS:
once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever

The "forever" part is what I have the most trouble with, getting rich or lucky is ok.

[manselr]

PoS is a joke. So is PoW, but less of a joke.

[cryptogeeknext]

PoS is a joke. So is PoW, but less of a joke.

We will see if PoA or PoI hold any water, they haven't been battle-tested yet on a large scale.
Maybe the ultimate solution is an intricate combination of them all?

[kodtycoon]

PoS is a joke. So is PoW, but less of a joke.

We will see if PoA or PoI hold any water, they haven't been battle-tested yet on a large scale.
Maybe the ultimate solution is an intricate combination of them all?

I know poi is po-importance but wats poa?

[Alaric Saltzman]

I know poi is po-importance but wats poa?

I think it is NodeCoin, but as far as I know it isn't up and running. 

[kodtycoon]

I know poi is po-importance but wats poa?

I think it is NodeCoin, but as far as I know it isn't up and running. 

ah proof of activity.. i dont see that getting very far.. iirc they are having serious issues and distribution was a big problem. sock infestation and large whale purchases during the auction. tanked after launch and still no open source/white paper(i think). i dont think they will be any competition for nem's poi.. they launched waaaaaaaaaay to early.

[Alaric Saltzman]

On the Reddit I read the following comment from SN811 "The PoW concept in relation to digital cash was introduced to solve a certain problem at a certain time (it's really an extension of hashcash in that sense). Anyone who designs a system based on PoW in 2014 does not understand really the purpose in the first place."

Can somebody please elaborate on what he is talking about or at least point me in the right direction?  What exactly was the "certain problem at a certain time" that is being referred to?  It seems vague to me.  

[very rare fruit]

proof-of-upload system

https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/15377/is-it-possible-to-create-a-proof-of-upload-system-for-bittorrent-ratio-trackin

[allthingsluxury]

Definitely an ongoing debate, thanks for sharing.

[Fernandez]

No, rich-get-richer is not my concern, but once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever is.
So far I haven't seen proven mechanisms in PoS systems that would prevent that.

Then you need to look at PoI or DPOS. No doubt in the future we will see more and hopefully better variants.
You are all stuck thinking in terms of PPC. The world has moved on.

[cryptogeeknext]

No, rich-get-richer is not my concern, but once-rich-or-lucky-gain-share-of-control-forever is.
So far I haven't seen proven mechanisms in PoS systems that would prevent that.

Then you need to look at PoI or DPOS. No doubt in the future we will see more and hopefully better variants.
You are all stuck thinking in terms of PPC. The world has moved on.

As I understand, with DPOS the established group of stakeholders with majority vote would be able to maintain total control over the network indefinitely at no cost. It doesn't matter much if control is exerted directly or via delegates, more steps only clutter the mechanics of control and contribute to confusion.

I would not comment on PoI as it is too early. I have concerns if large economic entities would maintain too much importance in the long run (think Facebook, Google), but at least their positions are not set in stone an can potentially be challenged by other players, however social network effects might become a significant barrier to entry. There is no sustainable network effects in mining as hardware is rendered obsolete fairly quickly over time and players need to compete from scratch with every new round of distribution. Also not quite sure if botnets will be able to simulate a lot of activity in PoI by sending random coins back and forth and thus gaining more and more control. It sounds promising, but we will see.

[Flashman]

IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

[cryptogeeknext]

This thread is nothing but PoW miner shills trying to hold on to their waning power, as the crypto world is increasingly moving toward the superior PoS system.

POS can be superior however most of these alt POS are awful.  Fortunately the very 1st one pee pee coin is the best so far.  However it could have been made better with no inflation.  POS means people want to protect their existing coins.  The bitcoin network today is not really protected by miners, it is protected by the owners of the largest amounts of coins.  POS rewards those who keep their client open.

That's completely wrong.
Satoshi has allegedly the largest amount of coins, but has zero control over transactions.
He might decide to gain that control, but he would need to approach the hardware market and find lucrative deals or develop equipment himself, but so can do outside players with fiat. Even if he approaches the goal of total control over the network, his position will never be unchallenged.

Holding coins in PoW doesn't automatically translate to control, and gaining that control might be challenging.
I like the idea of reward for just using the client in PoS, but it is the control model, where an established inner circle of stakeholders will eventually maintain permanent hold on money flow, that bothers me.

IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

True enough.

[kodtycoon]

IMO, use POS if you want a private members club, not a currency. Use POI if you want to simulate the introduction of black holes into a stable planetary system.

have you anything to back that statement on? there is no proof yet to prove poi is safe or that it isnt safe so you cannot make that statement based on proof. the only thing you can base that on is opinion. so dont make a statement like that as if it is factual and provable.