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Author Topic: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security  (Read 30692 times)
MoonShadow
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May 17, 2011, 09:19:47 PM
 #41

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

If you had that much processing power, odds are high that you have many other more profitable uses for it than attacking the blockchain.  Like, for example, mining with the blockchain to capture 50% of the coins produced.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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rezin777
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May 17, 2011, 09:21:19 PM
 #42

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

What would the reason be, for someone who wanted to hurt the network, to go to such lengths if they already had the required processing power?
rezin777
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May 17, 2011, 09:23:14 PM
 #43

If you had that much processing power, odds are high that you have many other more profitable uses for it than attacking the blockchain.  Like, for example, mining with the blockchain to capture 50% of the coins produced.

Only if your motive is economic. I think odds are high that someone who wants to hurt the network won't have economic motivations in mind. Well perhaps, but not certainly not Bitcoin related ones.
Nesetalis
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May 17, 2011, 09:23:44 PM
 #44

did you read my previous comment? <.<
I was simply poking a hole in my own argument.

ZOMG Moo!
MoonShadow
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May 17, 2011, 09:24:50 PM
 #45

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

What would the reason be, for someone who wanted to hurt the network, to go to such lengths if they already had the required processing power?

Delay a response from the bitcoin community.  If the attacker only had 51% of the hashing power as compared to the running network, he wouldn't have it for long after the community became aware of it.  A call to arms would go out for every honest user to generate using any means available, and many would do so even at a loss.  This is the 'hidden reserve' capacity of the bitcoin network, and we really don't have any idea how much the community could bring to bear, and neither would any potential attacker.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
rezin777
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May 17, 2011, 09:25:43 PM
 #46

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.

What would the reason be, for someone who wanted to hurt the network, to go to such lengths if they already had the required processing power?

Delay a response from the bitcoin community.  If the attacker only had 51% of the hashing power as compared to the running network, he wouldn't have it for long after the community became aware of it.  A call to arms would go out for every honest user to generate using any means available, and many would do so even at a loss.  This is the 'hidden reserve' capacity of the bitcoin network, and we really don't have any idea how much the community could bring to bear, and neither would any potential attacker.

I see.
rezin777
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May 17, 2011, 09:26:04 PM
 #47

did you read my previous comment? <.<
I was simply poking a hole in my own argument.

Sorry, too many different threads at once!
singpolyma
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May 17, 2011, 09:40:23 PM
 #48

Move to other pools. Stop mining on deepbit.

Here’s what someone with 50% of the network’s hashrate could do.

I've been hearing this for awhile, but since my miner will only computer proof of works and send those to deepbit, can deepbit really be used to attack the network using only that?
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May 17, 2011, 10:29:39 PM
 #49

I started mining at deepbit when it was at 60Gh/s. I left once it hit 500Gh/s. I've been at btcmine ever since.

gmaxwell
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May 17, 2011, 10:34:53 PM
 #50

i meant. if you had the raw processing power to take 51%.. you could make it 50 different pools of 1.02% so it looked like 50 people held 51%... when in truth it was a single person pulling all the strings.
If you had that much processing power, odds are high that you have many other more profitable uses for it than attacking the blockchain.  Like, for example, mining with the blockchain to capture 50% of the coins produced.

You misunderstood the argument.  Lets say that DB is 40%, slush is 30%, eligius is 20%.   You get 11% of the network hashing power, way less than half. Then you DOS attack those three pools. You now have 51% of the _remaining_ hash power.

This attack is much harder with less pool concentration.



I've been hearing this for awhile, but since my miner will only computer proof of works and send those to deepbit, can deepbit really be used to attack the network using only that?

Yes, your computer can't even see the work it's doing for the pool because the work is hashed, it only works on the block header.  But the pool could not be evil completely undetectably. There is an argument that it's much easier for a pool to undetectably skim from their users, so if they were evil they'd do that instead... but lots of arguments against big pools have been given here which don't require evil.



Nesetalis
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May 17, 2011, 10:36:17 PM
 #51

i understood that part of the argument... but my point was, hiding your true operating power in multiple pools so it doesnt look like a single entity is coming ahead... is a danger.

ZOMG Moo!
goatpig
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May 17, 2011, 10:37:23 PM
 #52

Move to other pools. Stop mining on deepbit.

Here’s what someone with 50% of the network’s hashrate could do.

I've been hearing this for awhile, but since my miner will only computer proof of works and send those to deepbit, can deepbit really be used to attack the network using only that?

Yes.

btcarmory.com
imanikin
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May 17, 2011, 11:22:47 PM
 #53


I agree with the OP and others: the oligopoly of the pools and the monopoly of MtGox has already made the talk about decentralized Bitcoin a pure fantasy, and a disingenuous advertising gimmick...  Cheesy

The people who really did that were not the pool operators or the late comers. It was the early adopters who started to mine with GPU's that forced people who
couldn't afford top GPU's into pools. It wasn't enough for people like ArtForz just to get their large share as early adopters. They wanted to shovel B with clusters and become "Bitcoin billionaires" out of simple, old-fashioned greed, and just because they could...  Wink (Same with MtG, but that's a different topic...)

They are the ones who created this security issue. I think the solution should be limits built into the protocol, but they would never accept that either, because just as with the traditional Wall-Street bankers, no amount of money is enough for them... Wink

One thing i can say for myself: if Bitcoin gets attacked the DDOS-for-51% way, i am not going to "mine at a loss" to protect their fortunes, just as i wasn't for Wall-Street bank bailouts...  Cheesy
 

portpho
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May 17, 2011, 11:28:32 PM
 #54

This thread demonstrates why bitcoin is a joke and always will be.

You people flock to bitcoin supposedly to reclaim public, distributed control over a currency, and then you just give away the power to the first pool operator who asks for it.

What a joke.

The fact that people are actually arguing here that "deepbit would never do such a thing" is unbelievable. Is he Jesus now? Is he your new guru? I thought the entire point of bitcoin was that no one would be the guru, no one would have control.

And then you have the incredibly naive and ignorant argument that if someone abused the network people would "rally" to save it. What fantasy world is this? That's not what would happen. People would abandon the currency because they don't want to sink more money into a flawed concept and flawed community.

Amateur hour. The fact that one man already actively controls enough cryptographic power to break the validity of the currency with NO OVERSIGHT and people put their BLIND FAITH in him..... no serious person is going to have confidence in the currency when they learn that the exact exploit conditions presented by the creator have already been fulfilled, and not through investing significant personal resources either, but fulfilled because bitcoin users VOLUNTARILY GAVE AWAY their cryptographic authority to him. Amazing!

 
Veldy
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May 17, 2011, 11:32:47 PM
 #55

Problem is the others just aren't good enough. Slush is too unstable and I never returned to BTC mine after not getting paid for a block that took forever to finish in April. The rest are just too small, which makes it too easy to pool jump.

All IMO, of course.

I am not sure what issue you had in April, but BTCMine has been fantastic as of late.  Score based has its anti-abuse advantage, but it does have a disadvantage when the pool is small; you can't stop your miner to play a game or other GPU intensive application without most likely losing payment for all the work you did in that round if it continues long after you cut.  Having said that, BTCMine is not that little anymore Smiley  And, it is not huge ... exactly what we need more of.   I would like to see people go to it from deepbit to the point of reducing exposure to attack, but other than that, I am glad there are a lot of choices, larger and smaller.

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SgtSpike
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May 17, 2011, 11:35:26 PM
 #56

Amateur hour. The fact that one man already actively controls enough cryptographic power to break the validity of the currency with NO OVERSIGHT and people put their BLIND FAITH in him..... no serious person is going to have confidence in the currency when they learn that the exact exploit conditions presented by the creator have already been fulfilled, and not through investing significant personal resources either, but fulfilled because bitcoin users VOLUNTARILY GAVE AWAY their cryptographic authority to him. Amazing!
Except, he doesn't.  He's close to having enough power to do so, but he doesn't yet.
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May 17, 2011, 11:37:39 PM
 #57

You people flock to bitcoin supposedly to reclaim public, distributed control over a currency, and then you just give away the power to the first pool operator who asks for it.

What a joke.

The fact that people are actually arguing here that "deepbit would never do such a thing" is unbelievable. Is he Jesus now? Is he your new guru? I thought the entire point of bitcoin was that no one would be the guru, no one would have control.

And then you have the incredibly naive and ignorant argument that if someone abused the network people would "rally" to save it. What fantasy world is this? That's not what would happen. People would abandon the currency because they don't want to sink more money into a flawed concept and flawed community.
I wish I could object. Thank you for putting this in clear terms.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
OtaconEmmerich
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May 17, 2011, 11:40:24 PM
 #58

Eligius pays out instantly into your wallet via a generation transaction.


Well, you cannot spend those coins before at least 100 confirmations, so it is basically the same as many other pools. Deepbit isn't "instant" too, it takes one hour to show block on the account...
I don't mind the hour delay, It's those confirms that I do mind. It takes WELL over an hour to get 100-120 confirms. Like I said, If there was a pool that handled it almost exactly like deepbit does. I'd switch.
portpho
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May 17, 2011, 11:41:55 PM
 #59

Amateur hour. The fact that one man already actively controls enough cryptographic power to break the validity of the currency with NO OVERSIGHT and people put their BLIND FAITH in him..... no serious person is going to have confidence in the currency when they learn that the exact exploit conditions presented by the creator have already been fulfilled, and not through investing significant personal resources either, but fulfilled because bitcoin users VOLUNTARILY GAVE AWAY their cryptographic authority to him. Amazing!
Except, he doesn't.  He's close to having enough power to do so, but he doesn't yet.

You can't know that SgtSpike. All you know is what he tells you.

He could easily be lying about pool statistics or could simply have his own unpublished datacenter that puts him over the top.

For all you know, the pool operators are colluding to enrich each other at the expense of everyone else.

Bitcoin is obviously deeply flawed and only gullible idiots are buying into this pyramid scheme.

How hard would it be for the top 3 pool operators to collude and skim off a few coins here and there? What is their incentive NOT to? It sounds to me like all the profit is for the pool operators here, and you suckers are just falling for the latest MLM. I'm sure last week you were buying Avon soap trying to get rich.

You are the type of people who answer newspaper ads that say "I made $10,000 per week working from home!!"

Gullible idiots who trust people on blind faith. Not the cryptographer's way.
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May 17, 2011, 11:46:06 PM
 #60

Whatever portpho.  I've already paid for the hardware I've purchased to mine with, so... whatever.  If you don't like it or believe in it, that's fine.  I'll take my free video cards and computers, and whatever other bitcoins/cash floats my way in the coming months.  Wink

And pool operators DESERVE to take a scrape off the top.  They went through the trouble to build the pool and manage it day to day.  Of course they deserve a share of the profits!  I have no problem with that.

As far as extra skimmings off the top, well, we should probably verify that that isn't happening with the use of statistics.  But I wouldn't go so far as to say that such skimming is definitely happening without some proof to back it up.

Sure, the currency could go down the pot someday if your conspiracy theories end up being true.  Just like USD could for a variety of other reasons.  Or any other currency.  Or my house might go up in flames, or get broken in to.  I don't stop living life because there is some risk involved.
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