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Author Topic: You are threatening Bitcoin’s security  (Read 30648 times)
grue
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May 18, 2011, 01:02:58 AM
 #81

And politicians DESERVE to take a scrape off the top.  They went through the trouble to build the government and manage it day to day.  Of course they deserve a share of our tax dollars!  I have no problem with that
And both happen because you allow it. One with majority vote, and the other with usage of the service. One is much easier to solve than the other though.
that's why i solo mine :p

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grndzero
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May 18, 2011, 01:05:46 AM
 #82

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In a conspiracy to make 800-1k$ per day? I want in on that!

I meant to say that was approximately the value of what is being collected from fees @ current ghash rate, without any further control/manipulation of the system.

Yeah, I know what you meant. If you don't trust them then don't use their services. If you think they are conspiring to take down bitcoin then don't use bitcoin. If you're using bitcoin and griping about mass conspiracy then you're either in it for the money and only worried about losing it or just plain being hypocritical. This is the 3rd time this argument has come up in 2 weeks and degenerated into the hypothetical of Slush and Tyco conspiring to take over the network and/or the possibility of someone breaking into a pool and stealing/redirecting all the coins. It's old now.

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May 18, 2011, 01:17:09 AM
 #83

I recommend anyone with more than one-two decent GPU's to mine solo. It is more efficient long term. It increases security of bitcoin. The only downside of solo mining is purely psychological "not boiling pot" syndrome.

Myself and my clients are mining solo and stopped using third party pools long time ago.


So if I have 4-5 GPUS mining solo, won't they be competing against each other?   If anyone wanted to put together a real nice mining pool guide I bet a lot more people would be that route.

For the good of security, multi miner pool guide!
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May 18, 2011, 01:18:09 AM
 #84

I recommend anyone with more than one-two decent GPU's to mine solo. It is more efficient long term. It increases security of bitcoin. The only downside of solo mining is purely psychological "not boiling pot" syndrome.

Myself and my clients are mining solo and stopped using third party pools long time ago.


So if I have 4-5 GPUS mining solo, won't they be competing against each other? 

they won't compete, they will get unique work.

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May 18, 2011, 01:20:03 AM
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In a conspiracy to make 800-1k$ per day? I want in on that!

I meant to say that was approximately the value of what is being collected from fees @ current ghash rate, without any further control/manipulation of the system.

Yeah, I know what you meant. If you don't trust them then don't use their services. If you think they are conspiring to take down bitcoin then don't use bitcoin. If you're using bitcoin and griping about mass conspiracy then you're either in it for the money and only worried about losing it or just plain being hypocritical. This is the 3rd time this argument has come up in 2 weeks and degenerated into the hypothetical of Slush and Tyco conspiring to take over the network and/or the possibility of someone breaking into a pool and stealing/redirecting all the coins. It's old now.

As mentioned before, they could be the most trustworthy people in the world, but that does not take away from the fact that the community should do something about what could be a potential problem. Those guys run a great service and kudos to them, their reward is the fairly easy-to-come-by fees they are picking up for running a good service early in the bitcoin game. Deviating from large pools is healthier for bitcoin in general though: only the people that are concerned with immediate profits as opposed to the success of bitcoin in general would be the ones that would indirectly promote such lopsided control.

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May 18, 2011, 01:24:58 AM
 #86

I recommend anyone with more than one-two decent GPU's to mine solo. It is more efficient long term. It increases security of bitcoin. The only downside of solo mining is purely psychological "not boiling pot" syndrome.

Myself and my clients are mining solo and stopped using third party pools long time ago.


So if I have 4-5 GPUS mining solo, won't they be competing against each other? 

they won't compete, they will get unique work.

Could you explain?  So let's say I run 3 miners and I point them to my local bitcoin -server (Which is also the wallet?)

That's all I need to do? 

Is this any different from how the larger pools work?  Will I still get the long pull etc?
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May 18, 2011, 01:33:10 AM
 #87

Could you explain?  So let's say I run 3 miners and I point them to my local bitcoin -server (Which is also the wallet?)

That's all I need to do? 

Is this any different from how the larger pools work?  Will I still get the long pull etc?
1. set up bitcoin.conf properly (be sure to allow your miner's IP)
2. start in server mode
3. connect your miner to your server
4. wait for profit

that's all you need to do.

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May 18, 2011, 01:43:59 AM
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In a conspiracy to make 800-1k$ per day? I want in on that!

I meant to say that was approximately the value of what is being collected from fees @ current ghash rate, without any further control/manipulation of the system.

Yeah, I know what you meant. If you don't trust them then don't use their services. If you think they are conspiring to take down bitcoin then don't use bitcoin. If you're using bitcoin and griping about mass conspiracy then you're either in it for the money and only worried about losing it or just plain being hypocritical. This is the 3rd time this argument has come up in 2 weeks and degenerated into the hypothetical of Slush and Tyco conspiring to take over the network and/or the possibility of someone breaking into a pool and stealing/redirecting all the coins. It's old now.

As mentioned before, they could be the most trustworthy people in the world, but that does not take away from the fact that the community should do something about what could be a potential problem. Those guys run a great service and kudos to them, their reward is the fairly easy-to-come-by fees they are picking up for running a good service early in the bitcoin game. Deviating from large pools is healthier for bitcoin in general though: only the people that are concerned with immediate profits as opposed to the success of bitcoin in general would be the ones that would indirectly promote such lopsided control.

Except the community is the one causing the "problem". It's not Tyco's or Slush's fault that a majority of people are using their services! It's pretty basic nature that most people want to be part of the largest group. So far the only "do something" I have seen is to ask them to limit their member, to which I would say no if I were them. Again, this is the 3rd time I have seen the argument that they need to be regulated when people are going to them freely. The only thing that can be done it to ask/motivate miners to diversify themselves. The only way to reach them all is for the pool to disappear since some percentage of them probably don't use the forums let alone live on them. It's also not very productive to try to get people to diversify in threads like this that start out dramatic, post incorrect information, and degenerate into flaming and conspiracy.

The basis of bitcoin is a free (as in open) currency and economy, even down to the code. I'm shocked! ShOcKeD! I tell you that free market principles have sprung up. Simple stuff like, providing the best service for an acceptble fee for example. Who would have though?!

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May 18, 2011, 01:48:23 AM
 #89

Solo mining (very brief) guide:

1. one bitcoin daemon, many miners. (OBMM)

  On your local network you run one bitcoind. It is listening on 127.0.0.1:8332 . Unless there are improvement in latest version and you do not want to hack bitcoind source code you can simply run a http proxy which listens on one of your LAN IP's and proxyes it to 127.0.0.1:8332. I personally use haproxy with 5 line config. You than point your miners to this proxy.

2. many bitcoin daemons, many miners. (MBMM)

  On every miner machine you run it's own bitcoind and point your miners software to local bitcoind daemon listening on 127.0.0.1:8332.

3. one bitcoin daemon, many miners via ssh (OBMMssh)

  Same as OBMM but you use ssh port forwarding to get access to bitcoind's machine 127.0.0.1:8332. Check out autossh.

 


Hmm.  So does solo mining have any issues with working on stale blocks?  I notice deepbit does the "long pull" and tells me whether the share I'm working on has already been completed.

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May 18, 2011, 01:54:05 AM
 #90

I've been mining for a few months now and I started on Slush's then switched to Bitcoin Pool then switched to Deepbit then switched to Eligius. This morning before I finally went to sleep I decided to give solo mining on my video card a try. Went and did stuff today and when I got home a couple hours ago I had already found a block! I had "found" blocks a few times when I was pooled mining but this is my first whole solo block and I am one happy camper. What are the odds? Tongue

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May 18, 2011, 01:56:24 AM
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1. one bitcoin daemon, many miners. (OBMM)

  On your local network you run one bitcoind. It is listening on 127.0.0.1:8332 . Unless there are improvement in latest version and you do not want to hack bitcoind source code you can simply run a http proxy which listens on one of your LAN IP's and proxyes it to 127.0.0.1:8332. I personally use haproxy with 5 line config. You than point your miners to this proxy.

3. one bitcoin daemon, many miners via ssh (OBMMssh)

  Same as OBMM but you use ssh port forwarding to get access to bitcoind's machine 127.0.0.1:8332. Check out autossh.

Specifying "-rpcallowip=" switches from binding to localhost (127.0.0.1) to binding to * (any local address).

No need for proxies, on a LAN.

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May 18, 2011, 03:36:27 AM
 #92

I recommend anyone with more than one-two decent GPU's to mine solo. It is more efficient long term. It increases security of bitcoin. The only downside of solo mining is purely psychological "not boiling pot" syndrome.

Myself and my clients are mining solo and stopped using third party pools long time ago.

Im taking your advise and taking my 3Gh/s off Deepit.

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May 18, 2011, 03:40:55 AM
 #93

The basis of bitcoin is a free (as in open) currency and economy, even down to the code. I'm shocked! ShOcKeD! I tell you that free market principles have sprung up. Simple stuff like, providing the best service for an acceptble fee for example. Who would have though?!

You are missing the point that people are short sighted. They are making money now. If an attack occurs, trust in Bitcoin as a valid currency, store of value, speculator's toy, ect, would diminish rapidly and everyone mining would cease to profit from it. It's terribly difficult to imagine a day beyond tomorrow, I know.

I see arguments that a pool operator would not cut off his nose despite his face. Obviously he wouldn't. Have you people ever heard of governments forcing people to do what they want them to do. Forget the double-spend, that is child's play. The real concern is that the Bitcoin network is no longer able to be trusted because it is so easily corrupted. Who could possibly have motive to crush Bitcoin?

I think Satoshi did an amazing job, but it is difficult to see everything in the future. Hindsight is of course 20/20. Why in the name of all things holy would you tempt fate by giving away the requirements for an attack for a bit of variance security?

I have high hopes for this project, but I have to wonder where it can go when people refuse take account of their actions.

I've listened to various systems be blamed for the suffering of humanity, but when a brilliant system comes along and people manage to fuck it up regardless, I have to ask myself, is it the fault of the system or the users.

I can't wait for an attack to occur. I want to see if the resilience of Bitcoin is worth the time and effort so many have put into it.
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May 18, 2011, 04:04:25 AM
 #94

The basis of bitcoin is a free (as in open) currency and economy, even down to the code. I'm shocked! ShOcKeD! I tell you that free market principles have sprung up. Simple stuff like, providing the best service for an acceptble fee for example. Who would have though?!

I have high hopes for this project, but I have to wonder where it can go when people refuse take account of their actions.

I've listened to various systems be blamed for the suffering of humanity, but when a brilliant system comes along and people manage to fuck it up regardless, I have to ask myself, is it the fault of the system or the users.


It will go to the scape goats because as you said, people will refuse to take responsibility. Just like it's all the pool owners faults that they are so big and successful. Right?

People will manage to screw up any system they're given. Purely because someone always thinks they can do it better or it's not meeting their expectations, so they need to regulate it.

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May 18, 2011, 04:33:59 AM
 #95

The basis of bitcoin is a free (as in open) currency and economy, even down to the code. I'm shocked! ShOcKeD! I tell you that free market principles have sprung up. Simple stuff like, providing the best service for an acceptble fee for example. Who would have though?!

I can't wait for an attack to occur. I want to see if the resilience of Bitcoin is worth the time and effort so many have put into it.

I wouldn't call it an attack (though I haven't seen any details other than slush was offline), but the system recovered pretty quickly when slush's pool went down. I have quite a bit of faith that the network can recover if all the big pools were maliciously attacked to the point that were taken offline for an extended period of time. Even though I don't mine solo, I tested it before moving to a pool, I know how to set it up and could move over to it pretty quickly if need be.

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May 18, 2011, 05:12:47 AM
 #96

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Except the community is the one causing the "problem". It's not Tyco's or Slush's fault that a majority of people are using their services! It's pretty basic nature that most people want to be part of the largest group. So far the only "do something" I have seen is to ask them to limit their member, to which I would say no if I were them. Again, this is the 3rd time I have seen the argument that they need to be regulated when people are going to them freely. The only thing that can be done it to ask/motivate miners to diversify themselves. The only way to reach them all is for the pool to disappear since some percentage of them probably don't use the forums let alone live on them. It's also not very productive to try to get people to diversify in threads like this that start out dramatic, post incorrect information, and degenerate into flaming and conspiracy.

The basis of bitcoin is a free (as in open) currency and economy, even down to the code. I'm shocked! ShOcKeD! I tell you that free market principles have sprung up. Simple stuff like, providing the best service for an acceptble fee for example. Who would have though?!

Well yes, the community is the 'problem', but only out of ignorance. An astounding amount of deepbit pool users that I've chatted to don't even know how to edit their bitcoin.conf to solo mine. Once they become cognisant of the fact that distributed pools are probably a lot better (or neutral) for themselves profit-wise (and for the well-being of bitcoin's longevity and security in general), we will probably see a change. Once setting up a pool becomes easy/straightforward for users with little technical knowledge, the numbers in these huge pools will likely diminish or at least stop increasing at the rates they are.

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May 18, 2011, 05:43:55 AM
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Except the community is the one causing the "problem". It's not Tyco's or Slush's fault that a majority of people are using their services! It's pretty basic nature that most people want to be part of the largest group. So far the only "do something" I have seen is to ask them to limit their member, to which I would say no if I were them. Again, this is the 3rd time I have seen the argument that they need to be regulated when people are going to them freely. The only thing that can be done it to ask/motivate miners to diversify themselves. The only way to reach them all is for the pool to disappear since some percentage of them probably don't use the forums let alone live on them. It's also not very productive to try to get people to diversify in threads like this that start out dramatic, post incorrect information, and degenerate into flaming and conspiracy.

The basis of bitcoin is a free (as in open) currency and economy, even down to the code. I'm shocked! ShOcKeD! I tell you that free market principles have sprung up. Simple stuff like, providing the best service for an acceptble fee for example. Who would have though?!

Well yes, the community is the 'problem', but only out of ignorance. An astounding amount of deepbit pool users that I've chatted to don't even know how to edit their bitcoin.conf to solo mine. Once they become cognisant of the fact that distributed pools are probably a lot better (or neutral) for themselves profit-wise (and for the well-being of bitcoin's longevity and security in general), we will probably see a change. Once setting up a pool becomes easy/straightforward for users with little technical knowledge, the numbers in these huge pools will likely diminish or at least stop increasing at the rates they are.

> An astounding amount of deepbit pool users that I've chatted to don't even know how to edit their bitcoin.conf to solo mine.

An astounding amount probably don't care and aren't willing to learn how to do it as long as they are making money in the pool they are at. Unless you want to manage a bunch of people's setups manually a lot of them are probably better off left there until they come looking for the information. It depends on how they were introduced to bitcoin. Some probably got some very specific instructions on how to set it up, some got it set up for them, some set it up themselves but don't know or care about anything past that, then there's the ones who actually know more about it overall and willing and capable to learn more.

> Once setting up a pool becomes easy/straightforward for users with little technical knowledge,

No matter how easy you try to make something it will be too much for some people. No matter how idiot proof you make something they will always make a better idiot. There's only so far you can go to make it easy for the non technical that don't want to learn.

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May 18, 2011, 08:09:21 AM
 #98

Deepbit isn't "instant" too, it takes one hour to show block on the account...
It does, but if you do an instant payout you will get all the bitcoins you've earned up to that point. That includes bitcoins that were earned after the full hour balance update.
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May 18, 2011, 08:13:41 AM
 #99

Well, this just upsets me. I hope deepbit looses the market soon or we might have trouble.
I've used btcmine since the beginning, and I believe I will keep it that way or set up my own mining pool.

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May 18, 2011, 08:32:17 AM
 #100

This thread topic is exactly why I never thought that open pools were a good idea.  That said, the ability to create more pools will lead to a proliferation of said pools competing for contributers.  So it's unlikely that any one pool could ever collect the 50% minimum in order to attack the blockchain even for a short while, as the more pools there continue to be, the less of a percentage that each is ever likely to be able to accumulate.
Actually, the reason why I use Deepbit is that all the others I would consider are so small. Size is one of Deepbits biggest competitive advantages, because the whole point of using a pool is to get a regular flow of bitcoins. More pools means that the remaining hashing power is spread even thinner. That just increases Deepbit's advantage.
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