Bitcoins Direct Support Thread

[Dabs]

Let me guess. During the time the coins were going from $150 to $200, as it is going up, the VWAP is in the middle, or maybe $170. During the time it is going down, from $266 to $50, the VWAP is also in the middle, or maybe $100.

That's too large a gap, and too unstable and volatile. No one wants to do business that way. The buyers would like a cheap price, but the business will lose. The sellers want a high price, but the buyer will lose.

That's what I think. I would like to order VWAP too, because since I am from another country, the bank wires can take up to 2 days before it gets to TangibleCryptography, and if the value of the bitcoin has gone up in those 2 days, naturally, I don't want that.

[TangibleCryptography]

Let me guess. During the time the coins were going from $150 to $200, as it is going up, the VWAP is in the middle, or maybe $170. During the time it is going down, from $266 to $50, the VWAP is also in the middle, or maybe $100.

That's too large a gap, and too unstable and volatile. No one wants to do business that way. The buyers would like a cheap price, but the business will lose. The sellers want a high price, but the buyer will lose.

Correct.  In normal markets VWAP is preferable for both us and large clients.  The largest transactions we have done are in excess of 1,000 BTC.  Obviously there is significant "timing risk" if a single spot price is used.

However lately markets haven't been "normal" not even by Bitcoin standardards.  As intra-day volatility increases our purchases tend not to be randomly distributed.  Sellers will wait (as they should) for peaks and spikes to sell us coins.  This means we generally are buying (before our fee) at higher than VWAP.  The problem is compounded by the fact that the daily swing is larger than normal AND when the swing is high the average buying price is pushed to the upper end of the range.

We partially mitigate this by using exchange accounts and selling into rallies and buying into dips to "normalize" our average buying price.

The markets are settling down and we should be able to resume larger sales, VWAP sales, and multi-day contracts again.

That's what I think. I would like to order VWAP too, because since I am from another country, the bank wires can take up to 2 days before it gets to TangibleCryptography, and if the value of the bitcoin has gone up in those 2 days, naturally, I don't want that.

For spot orders (up to $10,000) we will lock in the rate in effect at the timestamp you SEND the wire (and notify us by email).  If price rises over the next two days it won't affect your buying price.  We can do this because we essentially are selling you the coins at the time you send funds.  Delivery of said coins simply needs to wait until funds post.

i.e. you wire $10,000 and the exchange rate is $200.  Ignoring our fee to make the math simple at this point you are long 50 BTC and we are long the incoming wire USD balance.  Delivery will occur once certified funds post (normally within hours for domestic wires, and within 2-3 days for international ones). 

[TangibleCryptography]

Doing a 24-hr VWAP means that, from TC's point of view, because you buy coins randomly through the day, your average buy price can be expected to match the VWAP, less your bid-mid fee of course, to a reasonable extent, and perhaps more importantly, in an unbiased fashion (sometimes higher, sometimes lower, no real bias).

Our supply of coins comes from FC4B and there is a bias in the price we pay.  Normally our price will be slightly higher than the VWAP for the same period.  Now we collect a premium on those purchases so this bias is usually within the margin of our fees.  However when the prices moves 50%+ per day this causes the sales to become highly random and hard to predict.  We could get a lot of panic sellers providing us coins at the lowest point of the day but it is more likely the upside bias increases as smart sellers look to sell into spikes and peaks.

We hedge this somewhat by buying/selling on exchanges throughout the day but in laggy fast moving markets there is risk in even attempting to do this.

TL/DR:
as intra-day volatility increases our average acquiring price is biased more to the upside and our ability to mitigate that risk (hedging via exchanges) is reduced.

Therefore, I would have thought that a VWAP would be far more in your interest than an immediate fixing at some random intraday exchange price.

It is very much so in more normal markets however 50% moves, DDOS, and unsure order execution are not exactly normal markets.

That being said we should be able to restore larger orders, VWAP pricing, and multi-day contracts in the near future.

[TangibleCryptography]

Update 04/29

Fee has been reduced to just 0.89%.
Full funding amounts, VWAP pricing, and multi-day contracts are again available.
For wires sent on 05/01 or later our wire account has changed to Wells Fargo.  Send a request for updated funding instructions.
At this time we are no longer able to accept international bank wires (originated from non-US bank) due to heightened KYC requirements for foreign funds.

[Dabs]

What's KYC?

How about international bank wires in USD?

[TheButterZone]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kyc

[Bitco]

For wires sent on 05/01 or later our wire account has changed to Wells Fargo.  Send a request for updated funding instructions.

Did you drop PNC or did they close your account?

PNC recently sent out a notice to their customers that they will be changing their terms to require a PayPal-style arbitration agreement.  Customers that opt out receive a notice that their account will be closed in 30 days.  Some of PNC's (former) customers are not happy with this.

[Dabs]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kyc

Thanks. Normally that's just what I'd do; google it. I figured KYC was another one of those slang acronyms and wouldn't register in a search. Thank you for pointing that out, sometimes the obvious isn't.

Know your customer (KYC) refers to due diligence activities that financial institutions and other regulated companies must perform to ascertain relevant information from their clients for the purpose of doing business with them.

Now my question is, what if I were to voluntarily supply the needed information. The other question was about international bank wires denominated in US dollars, or maybe it's part of the same question.

[twelph]

Just wanted to chime in here that I've been doing business through you guys well before I even had a Bitcointalk forum account. I watched as exchanges closed down or messed things up, and as people waited in massive queues on MTGOX. Thanks for the professional and quick service, you are the best!

[chrisrico]

Question: what banks do people use for personal accounts that offer same-day wire transfers, preferably initiated online?

My credit union SUCKS when it comes to this (and anything online-banking related), so I'm strongly considering switching.

[TangibleCryptography]

Question: what banks do people use for personal accounts that offer same-day wire transfers, preferably initiated online?

My credit union SUCKS when it comes to this (and anything online-banking related), so I'm strongly considering switching.

Bank Of America & Wells Fargo both allow sending wires from online banking.  I believe you need to call to enable bank wires but once setup you should be able to execute them online.  This is based on information from customers and may be dated so always verify with the bank before opening an account.

[BCB]

I've used Citibank, Wells Fargo and Bank of America personal accounts to wire funds to Bitcoins Direct.  The Fees range between 18 (BofA) to 30(WF) for same day wire transfer (we are both in the United State).  Actual same day delivery time is usually with in the hour (in my experience).

For Citibank and Bank of America you can create a wire payee and send online.  (Some banks will also need to verbally confirm the payee you are adding the first time by a phone call to avoid fraud.  The Bank will not leave a message if they call you and get voice mail if you do not state your name on your out going message.  I've delayed some initial transfers due to this).  The wire just silently failed and I had to follow up with the bank to find out what happened.     

For Wells Fargo personal accounts there is no online function.  I actually had to go into the bank to add Bitcoins Direct to send a wire.   I prefer Wells Fargo for their p2p payment function (only between personal account).

Also, as all other clients have commented here, I've always received nothing but prompt payment and outstanding customer service the many times I've purchased coin from Bitcoins Direct.  Thank you.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I've used Citibank, Wells Fargo and Bank of America personal accounts to wire funds to Bitcoins Direct.  The Fees range between 18 (BofA) to 30(WF) for same day wire transfer (we are both in the United State).  Actual same day delivery time is usually with in the hour (in my experience).

For Citibank and Bank of America you can create a wire payee and send online.  (Some banks will also need to verbally confirm the payee you are adding the first time by a phone call to avoid fraud.  The Bank will not leave a message if they call you and get voice mail if you do not state your name on your out going message.  I've delayed some initial transfers due to this).  The wire just silently failed and I had to follow up with the bank to find out what happened.     

For Wells Fargo personal accounts there is no online function.  I actually had to go into the bank to add Bitcoins Direct to send a wire.   I prefer Wells Fargo for their p2p payment function (only between personal account).

Also, as all other clients have commented here, I've always received nothing but prompt payment and outstanding customer service the many times I've purchased coin from Bitcoins Direct.  Thank you.

Thanks for the detailed comparison.  Very helpful for new and potential clients.  Bank Wires are pretty simple for those who have done them in the past but they can be somewhat intimidating.

One thing I would add is that anytime you talk to your bank use the exact words "BANK WIRE".  Don't use any slang or other terms ("I need to transfer funds", "account to account transfer", "send money").  For clients who ran into problems it usually is their bank making a mistake because they DIDN'T use the words "BANK WIRE" and the bank assumed they wanted to do an ACH (Direct Deposit) transaction for example.  To any new or potential clients (or even new client of other exchanges/brokers) the word "BANK WIRE" has an exact and specific meaning that is the same at any bank, anywhere in the world.  Save yourself some time and confusion by making sure to only use those words when talking with your bank.

[koin]

"BANK WIRE" has an exact and specific meaning that is the same at any bank, anywhere in the world.

domestic transfer in the u.s. uses fedwire with funds sent to a bank by its fed routing number.   international transfer to a bank in the u.s. uses swift (only if the bank participates in the swift network) and funds set to a bank by its swift code.  so even "bank wire" can mean multiple things based on the circumstances.

[Dabs]

One thing I would add is that anytime you talk to your bank use the exact words "BANK WIRE".  Don't use any slang or other terms ("I need to transfer funds", "account to account transfer", "send money").  For clients who ran into problems it usually is their bank making a mistake because they DIDN'T use the words "BANK WIRE" and the bank assumed they wanted to do an ACH (Direct Deposit) transaction for example.  To any new or potential clients (or even new client of other exchanges/brokers) the word "BANK WIRE" has an exact and specific meaning that is the same at any bank, anywhere in the world.  Save yourself some time and confusion by making sure to only use those words when talking with your bank.

Hi. I'm an international customer, but you are not currently accepting bank wires from abroad. Can I get my cousin or uncle who has a US bank account to wire you the money? I make the PO, I get the funding instructions, I tell my uncle to send you the BANK WIRE. Then I get the bitcoins. (I'll pay my uncle later.)

[TangibleCryptography]

One thing I would add is that anytime you talk to your bank use the exact words "BANK WIRE".  Don't use any slang or other terms ("I need to transfer funds", "account to account transfer", "send money").  For clients who ran into problems it usually is their bank making a mistake because they DIDN'T use the words "BANK WIRE" and the bank assumed they wanted to do an ACH (Direct Deposit) transaction for example.  To any new or potential clients (or even new client of other exchanges/brokers) the word "BANK WIRE" has an exact and specific meaning that is the same at any bank, anywhere in the world.  Save yourself some time and confusion by making sure to only use those words when talking with your bank.

Hi. I'm an international customer, but you are not currently accepting bank wires from abroad. Can I get my cousin or uncle who has a US bank account to wire you the money? I make the PO, I get the funding instructions, I tell my uncle to send you the BANK WIRE. Then I get the bitcoins. (I'll pay my uncle later.)

Sorry no.  We can't accept funds from any third party on your behalf.

[Dabs]

Sorry no.  We can't accept funds from any third party on your behalf.

Is this due to all the new regulations and guidelines? You've effectively cut off all your international customers. So should I just get my uncle to actually order from you? I'd have to teach him GPG. Haven't you thought of the possibility that the third party might allow his name to be used, but the actual buyer is someone else who knows GPG?

[leinem]

 Site completed ?

[TangibleCryptography]

Sorry no.  We can't accept funds from any third party on your behalf.

Is this due to all the new regulations and guidelines? You've effectively cut off all your international customers. So should I just get my uncle to actually order from you? I'd have to teach him GPG. Haven't you thought of the possibility that the third party might allow his name to be used, but the actual buyer is someone else who knows GPG?

Yes.  We also understand this limits the service to US customers at the current time.  No you can't use a third party.  While it may be possible for you to "fool us" if we find out we are obligated to halt the transaction and file a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report).  Yes we understand it is possible for someone to allow their bank account to be used, it is possible for someone to get another person to open a bank account in their name to get around various AML/KYC procedures.  For illegal activitity this probably happens on a daily basis.

It doesn't matter how nonsensical the rules are noncompliance is noncompliance.

TL/DR:
a) we can only accept wires from US banks at the current time.
b) there is no ETA on when we will be able to accept international wires.
c) you can not have a third party process a transaction for you.

Now if someone were to buy some coins from us and they chose to sell them to you well that is beyond the scope of our business.

[justusranvier]

Haven't you thought of the possibility that the third party might allow his name to be used, but the actual buyer is someone else who knows GPG?

It doesn't do anyone any good to talk about potential ways to bypass Bitcoin Direct's AML policy.

I'm positive they would rather devote their time to better serving customers, but unfortunately they have to operate in an environment in which doing that would get their bank accounts closed, business shut down, assets seized, and possibly involve them being kidnapped and thrown into cages. it's not that they don't want you as a customer, it's that there's a literal gun to their head restricting their ability to do business with you.

So don't take theses rules personally, and if you find some way to bypass them don't publicize it. As soon as they become aware of a way to bypass their policy they have to start thinking about additional precautions,, which means they now have to devote their time to finding ways to stay in compliance instead of selling Bitcoins.