Decentrally mined currency has failed so far

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

You start with one false technological premise above, then proclaim that pools can create a better mix-net (and I know you don't realize that is the only possible solution to remain hidden) without even comprehending how a mix-net amongst a few pools would be trivially easy to unmask. For a mix-net to work, you need a lot of varied users of the internet involved, meaning you need to create the high-latency improved Tor I have called for. This is the Dunning-Kruger effect (sorry not wanting to ad hominen, but factually this is exactly Dunning-Kruger).

Again, we're engaging in hypotheticals. Bitcoin isn't the only protocol that wants a better privacy. All I'm saying is that TOR is pretty good and most of the sites that have been shut down were just sloppy. Where do you think the governments get their hackers? They get people with little motivation to assist them, usually through coercion. While I'm not making the Libertarian argument that govts screw up everything, I go back to my point that people tend to resist ridiculous laws.

I don't know enough tech to assess your "technologically plausible solution" but I will say that there are plenty of people, if not governments, that will be interested in such pursuits. I also agree with franky1 that individuals have the power to resist and demand due process in the light of day. Bullies should never be tolerated, especially in positions of authority.

I agree with:

• There is much demand for anonymous networks, thus many have an incentive to create and improve them.
• Government can not beat the hackers in ingenuity.

Our weakness is our own myopia and hubris ("Bitcoin is better than sex") ignoring our weak points and just expecting "someone" will always provide a solution and not too late.

Worse myopia is franky1 not willing to admit Bitcoin's block chain can't be untraceable and unlinkable in the current version of the protocol.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

BTC is an experiment - whether a token can have value without being backed by anything and it has been a success. As such I dont think it has failed.

If what it says in teh first post id true it merely means that there are some flaws which can be corrected.

Agreed.

When I wrote the thread title I was sleepy and got myself conflated over the issue of centralization of mining pools and anonymity of mining pools. When I awoke, I realized we could at least get the situation we have now with mining pools (somewhat centralized) and improve the anonymity of the mining pools to deal with the threat I am talking about.

Also there are still significant problems in the way ring-sigs are implemented in the current crop of Cryptonote coins. I am talking forking changes needed.

Also the issue of transaction speed is a major one, because Bitcoin is not unlinkable and untraceable, so if you can't do transactions faster than Bitcoin, you are going to have a difficult time moving the market away from Bitcoin (and the plan to use off chain Paypal, Coinbase, etc to make transactions fast). The powers-that-be are sitting in an enviable market position. Note I assume Bitcoin's protocol can't be improved to add ring-sigs. I think there is too much vested inertia that would prevent that.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

I personally talked to someone from the FBI
and they admitted they can't really track coins
on the blockchain.

Hahaha. Glad to hear that you were escorted to the inner annals of the NSA (and GHCQ) and met the top crackers in the agency.

As if the NSA tells the FBI what their capabilities are.   Much less low-level FBI agents willing to talk to the public.

Watch cartoons much?

http://www.activistpost.com/2014/11/fbi-report-accidentally-exposes.html

Missing the point.

The Internet itself (yeah the same one the NSA is spying on all the time),
is already spreading freedom memes more successfully than government
propoganda memes, at least in my opinion.  

Despite desperate attempts, "they" can't even control what people
think or say anymore,

Agreed! In fact, Zbigniew Brzezinski has said "Populist Awakening" is possibly derailing the move towards a new world order controlled by the technocrats and elite.

However, you would be very naive to think that the global elite didn't anticipate this and didn't already have a plan of action. Brzezinski has hinted at their plan (which is obvious to me). Key on this phrase, "it is easier to kill a million". Do you not see ISIS rising funded by the USA leveraging the idealism of religious fundamentalism (and the push back against feminism and state castration of the Western males)? Do you not see the Ukraine war instigated by the CIA leveraging the dreams of the Ukrainians to join the Western quality of life they see on TV and internet? Refer to the Denver airport murals for their plan. The elite always inform you of their plan, so they have the moral high ground, because you were warned and didn't take corrective action.

I have long ago realized that the elite planned to turn those 130 million glossy eyed developing youth into a war rage machine, and then after the wars, by 2032 they will use their exhaustion and idealism to achieve a "social harmony" with a new world order peace as depicted in the Denver murals.

and you're somehow worried that
Bitcoin mining has failed?

Yes Bitcoin has market dominance yet no block chain anonymity. Yes this is a major hurdle that even Monero can't climb. In short, we are complacent and going to be fucked by our ("Bitcoin is good enough; it can be improved if need be; it is better than sex") myopia.

In the long run, the trend of humanity is toward greater freedom.
We are far more free, educated, enlightened, aware, connected,
and empowered as individuals today than we were 100 years ago.

Oh I guess you are one of those younger glossy eyed idealists?

Note I am not a Mathusian and I actually agree with that premise. But there is a lot of hurt to come between now and there.

You want a "high latency TOR" or whatever?  Fine.  Write up some
specs on it, or start a dedicated thread on THAT.  No offense, but
you're all over the place with doom and gloom proclamations and
I don't see the point.

Yes I want action. Trying to argue my case on that.

[cbeast]

God I hope I'm not arguing with John Nash.

[blackbird307]

Half the people in here discussing how bitcoin will never work, flawed, etc. Same discussion that took place every year in the past 4 years, nothing different.

Other half of everyone in here thinks bitcoin is going to increase 10x again. Let's think about the reasons why this will not happen in the near future.
- No driving force behind the price
- That's a 40 billion dollar market cap, how realistic is it to go from 5 billion to 40 billion in a week? How much money do you think that would require?

What if it goes from $370 to $100? It's very possible, we've seen drops like that in the past. On a scale of one to ten, how fucked are you?

That's alright, keep believing. Traders will milk the market of "moon", they don't care about the price, just the gains.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

God I hope I'm not arguing with John Nash.

To which one of me do you refer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDVQbhOg3V4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.#Mental_illness

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

blackbird307, I am not concerned about the Bitcoin price. I mention in passing that I had made some correct expectations on the declines in price only to establish a bit of my credibility as to be able to foresee trends.

The applicable theme of this thread is to about whether Bitcoin can succeed very well, while simultaneously defeating our ideals about monetary freedom.

What is strange is that I think we all share similar ideals about freedom and the political issues facing us Libertarians and anarchists. But for some reason, I don't seem to resonate with those who have a very lackadaisical attitude about threats to those ideals pertaining to Bitcoin.

I think this is because most people are followers, not leaders. They are accustomed to being led to a solution, not beating the path to a solution. I have always been a leader (sorry if it is bragging, but I was a leader on sports teams, a leader in my software projects, etc). Also I think most people don't want to assume the worst outcome, because they would feel so helpless and depressed. So that realization would always be avoided by their subconscious mind.

I really hate when people don't want to get things done. That is why usually it is best if I don't talk (and that is why I shut down the AnonyMint identity and I will not push this discussion too long-- also because I was suffering from bad health condition and needed to waste less time talking and more time focused on my health and actual work).

I am here to share my ideas, to perhaps raise awareness, to see what I can learn from others, and then collect all that experience and move on away from "Those who can't build, talk".

Edit: I am headed out to gym, dinner, maybe a date. Please feel free to express yourselves. I wanted to test my logic against the best of input. So thus, thank you to everyone who commented. I really appreciate it. You all helped me refine my thought process and logic.

[cbeast]

The applicable theme of this thread is to about whether Bitcoin can succeed very well, while simultaneously defeating our ideals about monetary freedom.

What is strange is that I think we all share similar ideals about freedom and the political issues facing us Libertarians and anarchists. But for some reason, I don't seem to resonate with those who have a very lackadaisical attitude about threats to those ideals pertaining to Bitcoin.

I think this is because most people are followers, not leaders. They are accustomed to being led to solution, not beating the path to a solution. I have always been a leader (sorry if it is bragging, but I was a leader on sports teams, a leader in my software projects, etc). Also I think most people don't want to assume the worst outcome, because they would feel so helpless and depressed. So that realization would always be avoided by their subconscious mind.

I really hate when people don't want to get things done. That is why usually it is best if I don't talk (and that is why I shut down the AnonyMint identity and I will not push this discussion too long-- also because I was suffering from bad health condition and needed to waste less time talking and more time focused on my health and actual work).

I am here to share my ideas, to perhaps raise awareness, to see what I can learn from others, and then collect all that experience and move on away from "Those who can't build, talk".

I was drawn to Bitcoin as a Utopianish Positivist. The problem has always been and will always be how do we get there? Talk doesn't get it done. You also can't just expect people to make great changes quickly. There is no need to create a perfect Bitcoin as there will never be one anyway. Change will come one battle at a time. Zeitgeisters call it "Transitional Technology." I learned a long time ago in business that to be successful, don't change everything, only change about 10% at a time. That way you don't lose your customers along the way. Miners will also adapt a little at a time so they learn to survive. Mining pools may one day be radically different than today. There are many real world as well as theoretical solutions they can try.

Whether you are talking about Bitcoin adoption, mining, Side Chains, or any other technology, the key thing to remember is why we are doing this. Who is this technology for? Solutions will present themselves as more of our peers join us.

[mercistheman]

One countries over regulation becomes another countries opportunity... eventually the heavy handed entities will realize that this is truly a global economy that can survive nicely with or without them... that's when they begin to backpedal (as NY is currently in the process of).
BTW, thank you Canada for listening and letting the technology take it's course before submitting knee jerk regs  ... they will reap the early rewards.
The OP does not recognize international free market competition.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

One countries over regulation becomes another countries opportunity... eventually the heavy handed entities will realize that this is truly a global economy that can survive nicely with or without them... that's when they begin to backpedal (as NY is currently in the process of).
BTW, thank you Canada for listening and letting the technology take it's course before submitting knee jerk regs  ... they will reap the early rewards.
The OP does not recognize international free market competition.

I did mention that point-of-view in the OP, but I don't agree with it, because of this:

http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/11/china-europe-and-optimal-currency-zones/#comment-96652

...

Who are they gonna be open to? The Chinese? The Koreans? They hate both of them.

Japan, China, and Korea are  likely to resort (with the Senkaku a.k.a. Diaoyu islands  as one pretext) to the old pattern of mutual war to make the unavoidable economic implosion to politically palatable.

The global implications of a collapsing periphery (i.e. all nations except the reserve currency USA) is that all capital is being  driven into the dollar, and this dollar hegemony means the USA laws will effectively govern the world, because for example if your country doesn't cooperate with FATCA and fledgling plans for internet licensing then the USA will blacklist your country or company. Essentially the same outcome of rising protectionism that worsened the Great Depression and lead to WW2 is repeating.

We are headed into the typical scorched earth paradigm (e.g. World War 2) that always throughout recorded human history exhibits at the times of peaking [global] socialism [and total global debt]. If we make it through to the other side, the balance of power will have shifted from West to East[1] and from multi-national corporations to individuals (by 2032), but the hell we have to go through before we get there is daunting.

[1] http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/08/05/the-shift-from-west-to-the-east/
     http://armstrongeconomics.com/693-2/2012-2/we-are-on-the-verge-of-a-very-profound-systemic-global-meltdown/
     http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/08/19/crisis-collapse-in-world-capital-flows/

Any country that doesn't adhere will find the CIA funded coup and/or USA military bombing as need be.

I watched the Philippines (where I live) cave in to USA pressure and is about to end their banking secrecy law, implemented AML laws, etc.. The Philippines had to cozy up to the USA, because of China threatening in the Spratly Islands. This of course is by design, the USA and China are cooperating as pretend enemies to help set up the new world order. Or let's put it this way, Rockefeller is playing chess with China and China doesn't realize how it is being used-- combination of the two, because some elites in China understand and want the cooperation on establishing the new world order. Other grunts e.g. in the military have to be lead by their over eager patriotic nose or greed.

[cbeast]

One countries over regulation becomes another countries opportunity... eventually the heavy handed entities will realize that this is truly a global economy that can survive nicely with or without them... that's when they begin to backpedal (as NY is currently in the process of).
BTW, thank you Canada for listening and letting the technology take it's course before submitting knee jerk regs  ... they will reap the early rewards.
The OP does not recognize international free market competition.

I did mention that point-of-view in the OP, but I don't agree with it, because of this:

http://blog.mpettis.com/2014/11/china-europe-and-optimal-currency-zones/#comment-96652

...

Who are they gonna be open to? The Chinese? The Koreans? They hate both of them.

Japan, China, and Korea are  likely to resort (with the Senkaku a.k.a. Diaoyu islands  as one pretext) to the old pattern of mutual war to make the unavoidable economic implosion to politically palatable.

The global implications of a collapsing periphery (i.e. all nations except the reserve currency USA) is that all capital is being  driven into the dollar, and this dollar hegemony means the USA laws will effectively govern the world, because for example if your country doesn't cooperate with FATCA and fledgling plans for internet licensing then the USA will blacklist your country or company. Essentially the same outcome of rising protectionism that worsened the Great Depression and lead to WW2 is repeating.

We are headed into the typical scorched earth paradigm (e.g. World War 2) that always throughout recorded human history exhibits at the times of peaking [global] socialism [and total global debt]. If we make it through to the other side, the balance of power will have shifted from West to East[1] and from multi-national corporations to individuals (by 2032), but the hell we have to go through before we get there is daunting.

[1] http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/08/05/the-shift-from-west-to-the-east/
     http://armstrongeconomics.com/693-2/2012-2/we-are-on-the-verge-of-a-very-profound-systemic-global-meltdown/
     http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/08/19/crisis-collapse-in-world-capital-flows/

Any country that doesn't adhere will find the CIA funded coup and/or USA military bombing as need be.

I watched the Philippines (where I live) cave in to USA pressure and is about to end their banking secrecy law, implemented AML laws, etc.. The Philippines had to cozy up to the USA, because of China threatening in the Spratly Islands. This of course is by design, the USA and China are cooperating as pretend enemies to help set up the new world order. Or let's put it this way, Rockefeller is playing chess with China and China doesn't realize how it is being used-- combination of the two, because some elites in China understand and want the cooperation on establishing the new world order. Other grunts e.g. in the military have to be lead by their over eager patriotic nose or greed.

Don't forget the likelihood of Korean Reunification to take them out of any entanglements because they're still in the middle of an unresolved war. Nobody cares about the Philippines (where I live) and let's hope it stays that way so they can keep remitting. That leaves China and Japan to play rock, scissors, paper over US debt which neither wants anymore. China will lean on Russia while Japan leans on USA. Then there will be war in the Middle East because oil.

[franky1]

an IP is just an IP.
just because you think Tor or proxies are the only way to change/mask/borrow an IP. is again nothing to do with the bitcoin protocol. but more to do with human choice and human knowledge.

there are many many other ways to separate yourself so your real life info is not linked to bitcoin transactions. this is not a fault of bitcoin. this is again human choice

Yes there are other ways to obtain an IP that is untraceable to your identity such as an unregistered prepaid USB dongle, connecting through an unregistered WiFi connection, even using a botnet to get throw away IP addresses.

But mining pools need to be at a stable IP address so none of those options above apply.

Also you did not address the point I made about Bitcoin's protocol can't provide untraceability and unlinkability.

The relevant analogy is you are the Philosopher's stone who can make gold with alchemy. Although it might be possible, it isn't practical nor realizable.

I do agree with the underlying point of your thesis, which is that the more the government pushes, the more we will push back.  So they would be wise not to regulate mining too soon. Wait and do it when they are really ready to take control so we don't have enough time to push back. Given your "don't worry" Philosopher's stone attitude, if they are wise and don't alert us, then we won't be able to implement fast enough once they go into rapid fire action around say 2017 or so.

the way computers connect together for mining pools is not the bitcoin protocol.. there is nothing wrong with  bitcoin... its not even the rules of POW either.. yet again you are not understanding the point im making,

bitcoinD.exe is the protocol. there is nothing wrong with bitcoin or POW. i say this because i have had many people ask me if bitcoin is broke due to the stuff you have been saying.

mining pool software is separate, there is already software available that allows people to automatically jump/switch to different pools, thus your static IP address is irrelevant as with just a couple lines of code anyone can tweak pool jumping software to jump to dynamic addresses that change daily or randomly. thus mining pools can change their own IP addresses freely if they chose to and people can still mine.

so i do not see a problem with trying to hide pool locations and i definitely dont see a problem with the bitcoin protocol. nothing has failed and everything can be "rescued"

in answering your other worries relating to taxation/regulation of mining
mining pools are just a small part of bitcoin and no matter what law comes about to attempt to control bitcoin, people can just change the software as mentioned above to flip between IP addresses to lessen the chances of being traced. and also people can use different types of pool software such as p2pool etc which offer different features.

all of which would mean that mining pool hosts themselves never really touch the reward and all funds go directly to the individual decentralized miners, thus government cant tax or regulate someone that never receives the funds.

the problem is not with any software, code or protocol. its with peoples choices.
already their are pools that instant payout to individual addresses, as oppose to hoarding the coins and then only pay out on day X per week. this is not POW mining fault. this is the user interface and custom software the mining pool host chooses to use.

it takes months to integrate new laws into different countries and only minutes/hours to get new software out there. i can (although already mentioning a couple scenarios) can think of atleast 10 ways to keep bitcoin out of jurisdiction of a country, but all of them have nothing to do with changing the main bitcoin or POW protocols, but to change PEOPLES minds about how they work on their own individual systems.

which i tried to explain earlier as being that there is nothing wrong with the underlying code, but people and the choices they make

[Sitarow]

an IP is just an IP.
just because you think Tor or proxies are the only way to change/mask/borrow an IP. is again nothing to do with the bitcoin protocol. but more to do with human choice and human knowledge.

there are many many other ways to separate yourself so your real life info is not linked to bitcoin transactions. this is not a fault of bitcoin. this is again human choice

Yes there are other ways to obtain an IP that is untraceable to your identity such as an unregistered prepaid USB dongle, connecting through an unregistered WiFi connection, even using a botnet to get throw away IP addresses.

But mining pools need to be at a stable IP address so none of those options above apply.

Also you did not address the point I made about Bitcoin's protocol can't provide untraceability and unlinkability.

The relevant analogy is you are the Philosopher's stone who can make gold with alchemy. Although it might be possible, it isn't practical nor realizable.

I do agree with the underlying point of your thesis, which is that the more the government pushes, the more we will push back.  So they would be wise not to regulate mining too soon. Wait and do it when they are really ready to take control so we don't have enough time to push back. Given your "don't worry" Philosopher's stone attitude, if they are wise and don't alert us, then we won't be able to implement fast enough once they go into rapid fire action around say 2017 or so.

the way computers connect together for mining pools is not the bitcoin protocol.. there is nothing wrong with  bitcoin... its not even the rules of POW either.. yet again you are not understanding the point im making,

bitcoinD.exe is the protocol. there is nothing wrong with bitcoin or POW. i say this because i have had many people ask me if bitcoin is broke due to the stuff you have been saying.

mining pool software is separate, there is already software available that allows people to automatically jump/switch to different pools, thus your static IP address is irrelevant as with just a couple lines of code anyone can tweak pool jumping software to jump to dynamic addresses that change daily or randomly. thus mining pools can change their own IP addresses freely if they chose to and people can still mine.

so i do not see a problem with trying to hide pool locations and i definitely dont see a problem with the bitcoin protocol. nothing has failed and everything can be "rescued"

in answering your other worries relating to taxation/regulation of mining
mining pools are just a small part of bitcoin and no matter what law comes about to attempt to control bitcoin, people can just change the software as mentioned above to flip between IP addresses to lessen the chances of being traced. and also people can use different types of pool software such as p2pool etc which offer different features.

all of which would mean that mining pool hosts themselves never really touch the reward and all funds go directly to the individual decentralized miners, thus government cant tax or regulate someone that never receives the funds.

the problem is not with any software, code or protocol. its with peoples choices.
already their are pools that instant payout to individual addresses, as oppose to hoarding the coins and then only pay out on day X per week. this is not POW mining fault. this is the user interface and custom software the mining pool host chooses to use.

it takes months to integrate new laws into different countries and only minutes/hours to get new software out there. i can (although already mentioning a couple scenarios) can think of atleast 10 ways to keep bitcoin out of jurisdiction of a country, but all of them have nothing to do with changing the main bitcoin or POW protocols, but to change PEOPLES minds about how they work on their own individual systems.

which i tried to explain earlier as being that there is nothing wrong with the underlying code, but people and the choices they make

Bitcoin has built in incentive and it's users are able to adapt. Any disruptions increase the incentive to adapt.

[turvarya]

I have stopped reading after a while.
I just have one question:
If governments can regulate everything, why is https://thepiratebay.se/ still there?

[jonald_fyookball]

the problem has always been and will always be how do we get there? Talk doesn't get it done.

This.  Imagine if Satoshi went around ranting and writing essays instead of actually coding the protocol.

The OP purports to be tech savvy, and I'm not here to challenge that...but if he is, wouldn't his time and energy be better spent building stuff (or at least having a focused technical discussion with a specific goal), rather than whatever it is we seem to be doing here?

[alc]

I have stopped reading after a while.
I just have one question:
If governments can regulate everything, why is https://thepiratebay.se/ still there?

1/ In many places, it isn't, thanks to government regulation.
2/ "Potentially illegal filesharing via a bittorrent site" is a somewhat smaller issue than "global money transfers".

mining pools are just a small part of bitcoin and no matter what law comes about to attempt to control bitcoin, people can just change the software as mentioned above to flip between IP addresses to lessen the chances of being traced. and also people can use different types of pool software such as p2pool etc which offer different features.

Your solution to most things seems to be "change ip address". This is fantastically short-sighted. You also seem to be conflating or confusing the issues of anonymity and freedom of transaction.

If the rapid centralization of mining hardware that we're seeing continues, and control of mining effectively consolidates into the hands of a few, then it is not much of a stretch of the imagination to think that governments/banks/corporations will seek to compel the victors (the cex.io's of the next decade) to blacklist transactions that they consider fraudulent. Your identity may be secure behind TOR (I wouldn't bet on it, personally) but if your address is blacklisted then you're still screwed, and no amount of TOR exit node hopping is going to change that.

The centralization of pools is a problem until it is solved, apparently p2pool is not the solution, and this sort of hand-waving and saying "it'll be ok, we'll figure this out" strikes me as naive, and fundamentally unwise.

[franky1]

Your solution to most things seems to be "change ip address". This is fantastically short-sighted. You also seem to be conflating or confusing the issues of anonymity and freedom of transaction.

If the rapid centralization of mining hardware that we're seeing continues, and control of mining effectively consolidates into the hands of a few, then it is not much of a stretch of the imagination to think that governments/banks/corporations will seek to compel the victors (the cex.io's of the next decade) to blacklist transactions that they consider fraudulent. Your identity may be secure behind TOR (I wouldn't bet on it, personally) but if your address is blacklisted then you're still screwed, and no amount of TOR exit node hopping is going to change that.

The centralization of pools is a problem until it is solved, apparently p2pool is not the solution, and this sort of hand-waving and saying "it'll be ok, we'll figure this out" strikes me as naive, and fundamentally unwise.

i could write pages and pages about every microtopic of anonimity, centralisation of mining by a single party owning al the rigs, centralisation of mining by pool owners, anonimity of individual users, regulations of individuals, pools, mining farms, and all the other blah.

but instead of waffling and going into great detail, i just jumped straight to the point.. the problem is not with the protocol its with the people.... no matter what you attempt to do with the protocol, even though nothing needs to be done, people are the deciding factor.

so lets meander into your territory of the centralised mining farmof one individual owning a substantial amount of hash.
if we changed the protocol to be proof of resources.
a mining farm can easily set up for $20 a unit, multiple rasberry Pi's to mimic that there are multiple users with multiple machines to hide the fact its still one person.
if we changed the protocol to PoS, there are already ways around that
if we changed the protocol in any way there will always be ways to circumvent it.

POW is not broke.. the people are
bitcoin is not broke.. the people are

people are free to choose what they want to do and if a arge mining farm came together then people can all move away from that host and try different pools to keep the balance of power.
if regulations came in that people from new york had to be regulated then PEOPLE can easily mimic that thy are in russia
if regulations came in that people needed to b taxed, then PEOPLE can hide their identity to not associate their funds with their real life.

do not think i post without thinking about the topic, even if i dont waffle through my every thought. i simply try to get to the point of the issues and explain them in plain english
do not think because i am not using big words that i am not smart. i know more than you think, and i know enough that looking smart helps no one, so its best to speak in laymens terms and just get to the point

have a nice day

[Soros Shorts]

The centralization of pools is a problem until it is solved, apparently p2pool is not the solution, and this sort of hand-waving and saying "it'll be ok, we'll figure this out" strikes me as naive, and fundamentally unwise.

The centralization of farms is a bigger problem than the centralization of pools.

[jonald_fyookball]

I have stopped reading after a while.
I just have one question:
If governments can regulate everything, why is https://thepiratebay.se/ still there?

1/ In many places, it isn't, thanks to government regulation.
2/ "Potentially illegal filesharing via a bittorrent site" is a somewhat smaller issue than "global money transfers".

mining pools are just a small part of bitcoin and no matter what law comes about to attempt to control bitcoin, people can just change the software as mentioned above to flip between IP addresses to lessen the chances of being traced. and also people can use different types of pool software such as p2pool etc which offer different features.

Your solution to most things seems to be "change ip address". This is fantastically short-sighted. You also seem to be conflating or confusing the issues of anonymity and freedom of transaction.

If the rapid centralization of mining hardware that we're seeing continues, and control of mining effectively consolidates into the hands of a few, then it is not much of a stretch of the imagination to think that governments/banks/corporations will seek to compel the victors (the cex.io's of the next decade) to blacklist transactions that they consider fraudulent. Your identity may be secure behind TOR (I wouldn't bet on it, personally) but if your address is blacklisted then you're still screwed, and no amount of TOR exit node hopping is going to change that.

The centralization of pools is a problem until it is solved, apparently p2pool is not the solution, and this sort of hand-waving and saying "it'll be ok, we'll figure this out" strikes me as naive, and fundamentally unwise.

forgive my ignorance, why is p2pool not going to work?

[turvarya]

I have stopped reading after a while.
I just have one question:
If governments can regulate everything, why is https://thepiratebay.se/ still there?

1/ In many places, it isn't, thanks to government regulation.
2/ "Potentially illegal filesharing via a bittorrent site" is a somewhat smaller issue than "global money transfers".

ad 1. lol, where? China?
There were some banning of websites in Austria, but I just changed my DNS for that.

ad 2. with all the lobbying from the content companies in the governments, i don't see how it is a smaller issue for the governments. They really tried a lot, to get such sites offline and they clearly failed. I mean, you don't really want to tell, they didn't try pretty hard, do you?