BFL and the law.

[rjk]

Question of the day:  Who's going to head the lawsuit against BFL?

Obviously not you, since you don't have the balls to come up with some proof. Secondhand, my ass.

ignore rjk, he just trolls for BFL.

Ignore mem, he is retarded, just like galambo. Are they the same person?

[1713248418]

1713248418

[Maged]

Taking 100% deposits on products you know you won't deliver on your promised schedule doesn't seem to be proscribed under US consumer laws.  At least not in an obvious way that I can find.

Oh! It just so happens that I know the law you're looking for  
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

(a) Mail or telephone order sales shall mean sales in which the buyer has ordered merchandise from the seller by mail or telephone, regardless of the method of payment or the method used to solicit the order.

...

(f) Telephone refers to any direct or indirect use of the telephone to order merchandise, regardless of whether the telephone is activated by, or the language used is that of human beings, machines, or both.

Thanks for jogging my memory

[mem]

Question of the day:  Who's going to head the lawsuit against BFL?

Obviously not you, since you don't have the balls to come up with some proof. Secondhand, my ass.

ignore rjk, he just trolls for BFL.

Ignore mem, he is retarded, just like galambo. Are they the same person?

must be hard defending a company like BFL when they constantly come off as lying dicks who have no respect for their clients and troll other respectable manufacturers.
Have fun seeing it through to the bitter end.

Please do not move this to legal, the BFL shills want this buried for the obvious reasons.

[dropt]

Ignore mem, he is retarded, just like galambo. Are they the same person?

IMO, I think they are.  Thanks for directing me to the 'move' link.

[rjk]

Question of the day:  Who's going to head the lawsuit against BFL?

Obviously not you, since you don't have the balls to come up with some proof. Secondhand, my ass.

ignore rjk, he just trolls for BFL.

Ignore mem, he is retarded, just like galambo. Are they the same person?

must be hard defending a company like BFL when they constantly come off as lying dicks who have no respect for their clients and troll other respectable manufacturers.
Have fun seeing it through to the bitter end.

Please do not move this to legal, the BFL shills want this buried for the obvious reasons.

In case you haven't bothered to read what I've been writing for the past dozens of posts, I will repeat here that I am not at all impressed or infatuated by them or their business ethics. I however know a good product when I see it, and I find no reason to detract from the product itself. I have been bashing them as hard as anyone in regards to the abysmal business conduct, even going as far as to troll a competitor's thread.

However, legal action on questionable principles is going to do nothing more than put an innovative company out of business for no really good reason. We know what to expect from them now, and we know that there is nothing to fear any time soon. Can you say biting the hand that feeds you? Making a device that is faster than any GPU on the market, yet cheaper than most of them will result in widespread adoption like never before, which in turn leads to decentralization like never before, when many users have some small hash instead of some users having small hash and others having far more.

[bulanula]

Question of the day:  Who's going to head the lawsuit against BFL?

Obviously not you, since you don't have the balls to come up with some proof. Secondhand, my ass.

ignore rjk, he just trolls for BFL.

Ignore mem, he is retarded, just like galambo. Are they the same person?

In case you have not noticed, they are my sockies

[matthewh3]

I think taking peoples money for over three months before delivering a product is bad for consumers although I don't know if it is illegal if they told you the lead times.  That recent announcement they made is really bad for competitors tho and I don't think they can live up to it.  I just hope OpenBitASIC or Enterpoint can blow them out of the water with an actual product, price and delivery.   

[Entropy-uc]

Taking 100% deposits on products you know you won't deliver on your promised schedule doesn't seem to be proscribed under US consumer laws.  At least not in an obvious way that I can find.

Oh! It just so happens that I know the law you're looking for  
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

(a) Mail or telephone order sales shall mean sales in which the buyer has ordered merchandise from the seller by mail or telephone, regardless of the method of payment or the method used to solicit the order.

...

(f) Telephone refers to any direct or indirect use of the telephone to order merchandise, regardless of whether the telephone is activated by, or the language used is that of human beings, machines, or both.

Thanks for jogging my memory

But is there any relevant law they are violating in that space?  I recall restrictions against taking full deposits on goods ahead of manufacturing in Canada, but there doesn't seem to be anything specific in the US.  All I see is requirements for written notice of the right to a refund after 60 days without delivery.

[bitlane]

Jesus....Whatever happened to THIS promise ?

If you move it there, you won't have to hear from me again since I don't look at that section ever.

2 posts after the fact and here we are with your next little ditty....

In case you haven't bothered to read what I've been writing for the past dozens of posts, I will repeat here that I am not at all impressed or infatuated by them or their business ethics. I however know a good product when I see it, and I find no reason to detract from the product itself. I have been bashing them as hard as anyone in regards to the abysmal business conduct, even going as far as to troll a competitor's thread.

However, legal action on questionable principles is going to do nothing more than put an innovative company out of business for no really good reason. We know what to expect from them now, and we know that there is nothing to fear any time soon. Can you say biting the hand that feeds you? Making a device that is faster than any GPU on the market, yet cheaper than most of them will result in widespread adoption like never before, which in turn leads to decentralization like never before, when many users have some small hash instead of some users having small hash and others having far more.

Small hash vs more hash. I like more hash personally...LOL

[ice_chill]

Rubbish and pointless thread, lock it and let it die.

[Gabi]

This thread=bullshit and wasted bytes

The dinosaurs fearing the ASICs, so much fail.

[Gabi]

Just like Singles and Mini Rig were never delivered and don't exist? 

[sadpandatech]

Just like Singles and Mini Rig were never delivered and don't exist?  

There are still a good number of $600 ~850MH singles still not in customer hands. Meanwhile they are taking money for $149 ~3500MH units that DO NOT exist yet...

This seems perfectly normal to you?


edit; when they started taking money for singles they atleast had a prototype or 2 they were working with. No one has seen anything but claims from the current offerings.

[Entropy-uc]

They are definitely, flagrantly violating FTC rules as seen here.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

I still can't find anything about selling products that haven't been designed yet.  

Failing to conform to these rules looks expensive.    

Why You Should Comply with the Rule

Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.

Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

[bulanula]

They are definitely, flagrantly violating FTC rules as seen here.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

I still can't find anything about selling products that haven't been designed yet.  

Failing to conform to these rules looks expensive.    

Why You Should Comply with the Rule

Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.

Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice.

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

Nobody cares.

Funny world we live in ... government never respects the law ... they are above it !

[ice_chill]

I think any legal action would hurt the Bitcoing mining community the most (the customers) as it will simply create further delays and in worst case the company could liquidate without the members of the mining community getting their refund.

[Grouver (BtcBalance)]

The weirdest and most shadiest part of this all is that BFL only put there policies and terms on the forums and not on there website.
I pmed, and they just stated there policy again instead of pointing me to this statement on there website or explaining why it's not on there website.
See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90350.0
and don't let it die.

Note: That they can state as much as they want on this forum.
You cannot rely on the statements they make on the forums. And if shit does hits the fan, stuff they state on the forums like:
"We will give a full refund when we fail to perform" will not be valid in some future lawsuit.

I hope you guys realize that.

Edit: You also don't have to agree to any terms and conditions when purchasing something.
I don't get why people spend thousands of dollars without knowing what there rights are and what they deserve when shit goes wrong and they actually do fail to deliver or whatever.
And since they are not really fast with there customer support you may have to wait months before you get shit done without being able to appeal to anything.

[InfiniTcell]

Thanks for this. Reading through this link, it appears that BFL must cancel the order before they ship if a customer requests it. 

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:

    the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;

In their FAQ, BFL's policy on pre-orders states:

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.

I wonder what takes precedence in this case.

[Korbman]

The way I read it all is the 30-day rule kicks in after their delivery representation expires.

And you read correctly sir...or at least that's what I gathered from the reading too haha.

[Bicknellski]

The weirdest and most shadiest part of this all is that BFL only put there policies and terms on the forums and not on there website.
I pmed, and they just stated there policy again instead of pointing me to this statement on there website or explaining why it's not on there website.
See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90350.0
and don't let it die.

Note: That they can state as much as they want on this forum.
You cannot rely on the statements they make on the forums. And if shit does hits the fan, stuff they state on the forums like:
"We will give a full refund when we fail to perform" will not be valid in some future lawsuit.

I hope you guys realize that.

Edit: You also don't have to agree to any terms and conditions when purchasing something.
I don't get why people spend thousands of dollars without knowing what there rights are and what they deserve when shit goes wrong and they actually do fail to deliver or whatever.
And since they are not really fast with there customer support you may have to wait months before you get shit done without being able to appeal to anything.

Given what is still going on I wonder what your take on all this is now Grouver?