LocalBitcoins is no longer available in Germany ?

[bitllionaire]

Wow, strange legal movement, I hope localbitcoin is up soon, this is not good

[Elwar]

[newIndia]

-snip-

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

-snip-

I don't think that LBC will ever force their customers to go through KYC/AML verifications with them directly for that exact reason (they are only an escrow service). It has been ruled/determined that someone running an escrow service does not qualify as a money transmitter and will not be regulated as such. The seller of bitcoin on the other hand technically is a money transmitter and should comply with KYC/AML rules, however they rarely do (AFAIK)

I think Bitcoin can be regarded as a digital commodity like eBook or MP3. If they try to force bitcoin sellers to have KYC from buyers, then these e sellers should also come under the same periphery.

[BADecker]

In the States, Bank of America (probably other banks, as well) has a feature for people to send funds via email. If German banks have this feature, couldn't the German people simply contact each other by a different email account, or via placing an ad in the American Local Bitcoins, and then facilitate the trade for funds through their email account attached to their bank account?

See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887668.0.

[johnyj]

-snip-

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

-snip-

I don't think that LBC will ever force their customers to go through KYC/AML verifications with them directly for that exact reason (they are only an escrow service). It has been ruled/determined that someone running an escrow service does not qualify as a money transmitter and will not be regulated as such. The seller of bitcoin on the other hand technically is a money transmitter and should comply with KYC/AML rules, however they rarely do (AFAIK)

I think Bitcoin can be regarded as a digital commodity like eBook or MP3. If they try to force bitcoin sellers to have KYC from buyers, then these e sellers should also come under the same periphery.

Yes, in principle any kind of digital product can be used for this kind of scam (cheat someone into paying for you and get the product and disappear), since the delivery of digital product is not traceable unlike physical goods (have a physical receiving address). However, bitcoin is a financial product, it is much easier to resell than any other digital products, so it is a requirement for such kind of product to follow KYC rule

Even if the bitcoin seller collected the id document from the buyer, the real buyer (scammer) could still be another person. He could collect the id document from his victim and send it to the bitcoin seller to pass the KYC check. And the scammer could stay in another country to do this kind of scam so that he is 100% safe from law enforcement

This kind of scam makes traditional bank transfer method very risky, the only safe way is to go through mobile payment, where you can see the buyer's telephone number and sms/call him to confirm the bitcoin trade, I think this will become the trend for P2P trade in future

[newIndia]

-snip-

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

-snip-

I don't think that LBC will ever force their customers to go through KYC/AML verifications with them directly for that exact reason (they are only an escrow service). It has been ruled/determined that someone running an escrow service does not qualify as a money transmitter and will not be regulated as such. The seller of bitcoin on the other hand technically is a money transmitter and should comply with KYC/AML rules, however they rarely do (AFAIK)

I think Bitcoin can be regarded as a digital commodity like eBook or MP3. If they try to force bitcoin sellers to have KYC from buyers, then these e sellers should also come under the same periphery.

Yes, in principle any kind of digital product can be used for this kind of scam (cheat someone into paying for you and get the product and disappear), since the delivery of digital product is not traceable unlike physical goods (have a physical receiving address). However, bitcoin is a financial product, it is much easier to resell than any other digital products, so it is a requirement for such kind of product to follow KYC rule

Even if the bitcoin seller collected the id document from the buyer, the real buyer (scammer) could still be another person. He could collect the id document from his victim and send it to the bitcoin seller to pass the KYC check. And the scammer could stay in another country to do this kind of scam so that he is 100% safe from law enforcement

This kind of scam makes traditional bank transfer method very risky, the only safe way is to go through mobile payment, where you can see the buyer's telephone number and sms/call him to confirm the bitcoin trade, I think this will become the trend for P2P trade in future

Why do u think traditional bank transfer method is risky ? It is time consuming and expensive, but why risky ? Because, bank transfers are mostly irreversible in nature !!! Moreover, I dont think, mobile payment is as safe as traditional online payment. One bitcoin security researcher mentioned the vulnerability of SMS in the context of 2FA...

Anyone using SMS based 2FA is just begging to have their BTC stolen; hackers can easily social engineer your telecom to forward your number.

https://twitter.com/wiz/status/528806600941662209

[leopard2]

Now I don't know german or the german sub-forum but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few germans scammed and filling complaints with "localbitcoins" named out of frustration.  

100% correct; there was massive scamming going on (buying with stolen bank accts, man in the middle etc.) and there are enough complaints inside and outside their forum.

In essence, to receive a bank transfer within the specified time limit, sellers had to list the acct info in the ad - which is an excellent target for criminals, who can hack accounts and when successful, buy coins from such an ad.

Probably, German authorities were fed up with all that and have now pulled the plug.

I have recommended to LBC to do some sort of bank account verification like bitcoin.de or Paypal does, to ensure the buyer controls the account, or introduce escrow. Those two options would stop most scammers without requiring KYC (and after all, people paying with bank transfers are not anonymous at all).

LBC did give a fat rats ass and now the shit has hit the fan.

[david123]

Elwar made my day

[othe]

Now I don't know german or the german sub-forum but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few germans scammed and filling complaints with "localbitcoins" named out of frustration.  

100% correct; there was massive scamming going on (buying with stolen bank accts, man in the middle etc.) and there are enough complaints inside and outside their forum.

In essence, to receive a bank transfer within the specified time limit, sellers had to list the acct info in the ad - which is an excellent target for criminals, who can hack accounts and when successful, buy coins from such an ad.

Probably, German authorities were fed up with all that and have now pulled the plug.

I have recommended to LBC to do some sort of bank account verification like bitcoin.de or Paypal does, to ensure the buyer controls the account, or introduce escrow. Those two options would stop most scammers without requiring KYC (and after all, people paying with bank transfers are not anonymous at all).

LBC did give a fat rats ass and now the shit has hit the fan.

Well, then i don't see their point, for p2p exchange in germany most people use bitcoin.de/kraken etc anyway - they could just remove that option And there are good verification methods for german customer, better than in all other countries in the world, i.e. Postal identification service etc.

If they would just concentrate on what localbitcoins is all about -  selling _locally_ via Euro, there aren't aren't many ways to get scammed if you meet in a public place like a bank and let them check the Eur bills directly.

[leopard2]

If they would just concentrate on what localbitcoins is all about -  selling _locally_ via Euro, there aren't aren't many ways to get scammed if you meet in a public place like a bank and let them check the Eur bills directly.

+1

but ... if you google Bafin and localbitcoins, it could be that I was wrong and this is not about scammers at all but about fighting bitcoin after all 

let's see:

a) if scammers are the reason, LBC could enable local trades only for Germans or verify buyers bank accounts
b) if totalitarism is the reason, they will force verification and/or stop Germans from trading permanently

[leopard2]

I think Bitcoin can be regarded as a digital commodity like eBook or MP3. If they try to force bitcoin sellers to have KYC from buyers, then these e sellers should also come under the same periphery.

NO. Sellers can be without KYC, because their coins are taken in escrow and are always fungible.

However buyers can use stolen accounts, in which case the transfer is reversed and police gets the seller in hot water.

So, risk is totally on sellers side atm - only escrow or bank acct verification can change this.

Normally scammers dont control accounts over a long time, so a verification paypal-style (transfers of small amounts) would stop most scams.

[Velkro]

Really missed that part about german weird regulation (reading reddit every day).
Thats bad for germany only ;  )

[chufchuf]

Now I don't know german or the german sub-forum but I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than a few germans scammed and filling complaints with "localbitcoins" named out of frustration.  

100% correct; there was massive scamming going on (buying with stolen bank accts, man in the middle etc.) and there are enough complaints inside and outside their forum.

In essence, to receive a bank transfer within the specified time limit, sellers had to list the acct info in the ad - which is an excellent target for criminals, who can hack accounts and when successful, buy coins from such an ad.

Probably, German authorities were fed up with all that and have now pulled the plug.

I have recommended to LBC to do some sort of bank account verification like bitcoin.de or Paypal does, to ensure the buyer controls the account, or introduce escrow. Those two options would stop most scammers without requiring KYC (and after all, people paying with bank transfers are not anonymous at all).

LBC did give a fat rats ass and now the shit has hit the fan.

You can forget about putting the blame on bitcoin or localbitcoins for this one.

Hacked bank accounts and hacked credit cards is something entirely the fault of the police and the government, and they love producing shitty banking services and shitty credit cards that can be cloned so as to scare the peasants into socialising losses to hackers and as an excuse to have everyone earmarked for tax reasons, not even remotely for security reasons, that's why they keep trying to force reversibility of transactions, so that the taxman can look up an ebay seller's history nothing else, hacked accounts have been occuring for ages and what have the bankers done, nothing just keep producing the shitty cloneable cards and shitty atms etc etc. This is an attack on crypto make no mistake, but not all countries allow police to hide as secret police as they approach sellers.

[malaimult]

-snip-

So eventually those sellers on the platform have to comply with "know your customer" rule and collect ID document from buyers. But I think localbitcoins just do escrow service, thus not directly related to money transfer, should not be regulated

-snip-

I don't think that LBC will ever force their customers to go through KYC/AML verifications with them directly for that exact reason (they are only an escrow service). It has been ruled/determined that someone running an escrow service does not qualify as a money transmitter and will not be regulated as such. The seller of bitcoin on the other hand technically is a money transmitter and should comply with KYC/AML rules, however they rarely do (AFAIK)

I think Bitcoin can be regarded as a digital commodity like eBook or MP3. If they try to force bitcoin sellers to have KYC from buyers, then these e sellers should also come under the same periphery.

This is much easier said then done. The fact that bitcoin is not centralized (and is p2p) means that it is nearly impossible to force traders to act with any guidelines that are "set in stone"

[RocketSingh]

https://twitter.com/LocalBitcoins/status/541991711040606208

Localbitcoins.com won't be available in Germany anymore due to regulatory reasons. We hope this is temporary. Press enquiries via email

Link is already in the OP. Why did u quote it again ?

[newIndia]

Hmm, I use localbitcoins here in Germany to get my dollars changed to euros via Bitcoin.

I will look into this more. I still have my sales open, I just sold some coins last night.

Is it still blocked in Germany or there is any progress ?

[csmcanarney]

Is it still blocked in Germany or there is any progress ?

It is still possible to access the web site from Germany. The "only" thing that is no longer possible is creating, editing and searching for offers in Germany. Existing offers in Germany have remained active and can still be accepted if you have the direct link or find it via a user's profile page. The escrow system also continues to work.

[newIndia]

Is it still blocked in Germany or there is any progress ?

It is still possible to access the web site from Germany. The "only" thing that is no longer possible is creating, editing and searching for offers in Germany. Existing offers in Germany have remained active and can still be accepted if you have the direct link or find it via a user's profile page. The escrow system also continues to work.

What if you are using Tor ?

[Elwar]

I still have my listings up. I did get contacted last week by a buyer and everything from there works fine.

[csmcanarney]

What if you are using Tor ?

It doesn't matter. Searching within Germany or creating offers in Germany is disabled site-wide.