ASICMiner BE300S Samples Arrived, <0.2W/G Achieved at Board Level

[MichaelBliss]

Using a loan to suppress the price in order to squeeze out the competitor is a common practice in large enterprises. They could operate years with a negative earning to drive out competitors with weak cash flow (they either take loan or have earnings in other area to cover the loss in this area, if they think it worth the effort). It is not for profit in tomorrow or next month, but for a profit in 5-10 years

From banks point of view, it is even more possible, since bitcoin is said to be their competitor. Why shouldn't they take over competitor's infrastructure using money out of thin air, and have total control over it so that it will not make trouble for them in case something went wrong?

Because this is Bitcoin!  Still an experiment.  It's not drilling for oil.

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[philipma1957]

Using a loan to suppress the price in order to squeeze out the competitor is a common practice in large enterprises. They could operate years with a negative earning to drive out competitors with weak cash flow (they either take loan or have earnings in other area to cover the loss in this area, if they think it worth the effort). It is not for profit in tomorrow or next month, but for a profit in 5-10 years

From banks point of view, it is even more possible, since bitcoin is said to be their competitor. Why shouldn't they take over competitor's infrastructure using money out of thin air, and have total control over it so that it will not make trouble for them in case something went wrong?

Because this is Bitcoin!  Still an experiment.  It's not drilling for oil.

the problem is johnj is right   killing off btc is in the interest of banks and flooding the market with cheaper and cheaper and cheaper gear is not costly.

Still all and all I can spend 400 a month on power as long as I feel like it.  So if this comes out in april I will get one.

[jimmothy]

 In a nut shell cheap mining gear killed off LTC.  Gridseed blades were 3000 usd and ltc was 34 usd  .  gridseed blades dropped to  150 usd and ltc is 2 dollars.
If AM puts out a .33 watt 1.5th miner for  250 usd Shipped it will only serve to lower the price of BTC.
BTC diff-Price ratio is fucked up as it is.  I can not see the btc network working much longer without demand for the coins lifting price up and over the 500 dollar mark.

There's no reason to think cheap mining gear would cause the price of BTC to go down. LTC might have gone down in price with cheap hardware, but that's more than likely a coincidence.

IMO it's the other way around. Expensive/overpriced hardware is killing the price of BTC.

When the hardware is sold with a massive margin, there's no way for small/medium scale miners to compete with manufacturers.

So all the people who would likely hold their BTC are forced out of the game by manufacturers who will likely dump their btc to reinvest in hardware/next gen development.

[MrTeal]

 In a nut shell cheap mining gear killed off LTC.  Gridseed blades were 3000 usd and ltc was 34 usd  .  gridseed blades dropped to  150 usd and ltc is 2 dollars.
If AM puts out a .33 watt 1.5th miner for  250 usd Shipped it will only serve to lower the price of BTC.
BTC diff-Price ratio is fucked up as it is.  I can not see the btc network working much longer without demand for the coins lifting price up and over the 500 dollar mark.

There's no reason to think cheap mining gear would cause the price of BTC to go down. LTC might have gone down in price with cheap hardware, but that's more than likely a coincidence.

IMO it's the other way around. Expensive/overpriced hardware is killing the price of BTC.

When the hardware is sold with a massive margin, there's no way for small/medium scale miners to compete with manufacturers.

So all the people who would likely hold their BTC are forced out of the game by manufacturers who will likely dump their btc to reinvest in hardware/next gen development.

I'm not sure that argument holds water either. Margins on mining equipment have been steadily going down, yet the price is also continuing to drop.

Regardless of what the price of mining gear is doing, the market forces that determine the price are much bigger than whether half of the 3600BTC produced per day gets held or it all gets sold. A year ago the 12.64M BTC mined were worth US$10.55B. Today, the 13.74B BTC mined are worth less than US$3B. That's more than just the extra 1.1M BTC pushing down the price.

[jimmothy]

IMO it's the other way around. Expensive/overpriced hardware is killing the price of BTC.

When the hardware is sold with a massive margin, there's no way for small/medium scale miners to compete with manufacturers.

So all the people who would likely hold their BTC are forced out of the game by manufacturers who will likely dump their btc to reinvest in hardware/next gen development.

I'm not sure that argument holds water either. Margins on mining equipment have been steadily going down, yet the price is also continuing to drop.

Regardless of what the price of mining gear is doing, the market forces that determine the price are much bigger than whether half of the 3600BTC produced per day gets held or it all gets sold. A year ago the 12.64M BTC mined were worth US$10.55B. Today, the 13.74B BTC mined are worth less than US$3B. That's more than just the extra 1.1M BTC pushing down the price.

Of course there are tons of factors that affect the exchange rate and hardware markup is probably a tiny one. I just don't see how overpriced hardware can have a positive effect on the exchange rate.

[dogie]

I understand squeezing the competition.
We just witnessed the squeeze for the last 10 months.

When your next competitor is charging $342 for a product that is less efficient,  why would you price your product at $250?
I don't think there are going to be enough rounds of these chips to keep weeding out competitors before you can enjoy a little harvesting.

Maybe I misunderstood your comment.
Maybe you were just saying you could lower your pricing down to $250 and still make money.

But, please.  Cheap hashing power isn't going to do anyone any good.
Pricing war.
Difficulty into the stratosphere.
Investors make shit returns.

That is what I'm worrying about, with endless price war, the one that can stand many years of loss is the one with bank loan support, so eventually banks will take over all the mining chips business

Unless the major chip makers make an alliance like OPEC, they will be take over by banks one by one, but unfortunately bitcoin is free to mine for anyone, not like OPEC countries which have geographic access limitation

In fact, knc is most likely to be already running on a large sum of bank loans, so that they can operate in a loss for at least a couple of years

Friedcat isn't suggesting to undercut the market, he's projecting likely market prices at the time of release.

[philipma1957]

I think we will see further price dropa in coins and gear.  by this summer all .5 watt gear will be worth zip .  and the beat goes on. 

In the meantime.   Mr Fried Cat

  A) how abount a miner with a good controller  at least 3 pool choices with a simple failover option
  B) also not crazy loud
  C) not a fire hazard like some of the other gear you put out.
  D) I have owned everything you sold and plan on owning this.

[dogie]

That is what I'm worrying about, with endless price war, the one that can stand many years of loss is the one with bank loan support, so eventually banks will take over all the mining chips business

Unless the major chip makers make an alliance like OPEC, they will be take over by banks one by one, but unfortunately bitcoin is free to mine for anyone, not like OPEC countries which have geographic access limitation

In fact, knc is most likely to be already running on a large sum of bank loans, so that they can operate in a loss for at least a couple of years

Banks don't lend money to unprofitable businesses.  It's not their job to support years of losses through loans and they certainly wouldn't do that for Bitcoin mining businesses - something which banks have yet to warm up to!

All of that aside, a loan is just that - it's meant to be repaid.  What mining hardware manufacturer could afford to take a couple of years of losses, with any hope of repaying them (plus interest) from future profits?

VC funding is similar in this regard; it's not there to cover losses.

Using a loan to suppress the price in order to squeeze out the competitor is a common practice in large enterprises. They could operate years with a negative earning to drive out competitors with weak cash flow (they either take loan or have earnings in other area to cover the loss in this area, if they think it worth the effort). It is not for profit in tomorrow or next month, but for a profit in 5-10 years

From banks point of view, it is even more possible, since bitcoin is said to be their competitor. Why shouldn't they take over competitor's infrastructure using money out of thin air, and have total control over it so that it will not make trouble for them in case something went wrong?

That only works in a closed industry with you having the only source of cash. There are at least 5 mining companies in the industry with heavy heavy VC investment and most of those can raise more if required. You can't empty a sink if the tap is still running.

[sidehack]

I think we will see further price dropa in coins and gear.  by this summer all .5 watt gear will be worth zip .  and the beat goes on. 

In the meantime.   Mr Fried Cat

  A) how abount a miner with a good controller  at least 3 pool choices with a simple failover option
  B) also not crazy loud
  C) not a fire hazard like some of the other gear you put out.
  D) I have owned everything you sold and plan on owning this.

Also not a botched stratum implementation. That would be pretty helpful.

[Finksy]

I think we will see further price dropa in coins and gear.  by this summer all .5 watt gear will be worth zip .  and the beat goes on. 

You've been around considerably longer than me Phillip, but I believe we are approaching the point of diminishing returns.  The improvement in miner efficiency is already slowing down, and is bound to continue to do so. Mining chip technology is rapidly approaching current processor technology.  We are bound by physical constraints, and it doesn't seem realistic for a niche market (in comparison to major processor manufacturers) to overtake companies like Intel in technology, even if ASIC chips are considerably more simple.

[mavericklm]

That is what i'm trying to tell them it's like trying to reach the speed of light, the faster the harder!

Plus, check out btc price!

[bones]

I am curious as to why everyone is listening to a unknown source ( tutorialvideo ) about the chip expectation dates.
Friedcat said February.  I think it better to listen to him, until confirmation of the other date.

Are you another angry AM shareholder?

The mass production time of BE300 in terms of chip-out date is February to March, 2015.

If you think that AM can manage to get a whole batch in a couple of days after receiving the chips you are lying to yourself.

No, another happy shareholder.
I guess I missed that bit of info.
On the bright side, I found 1 of your posts that was actually usefull, congrats.

[BenTuras]

Is the datasheet available for the BE300S ?

[johnyj]

That only works in a closed industry with you having the only source of cash. There are at least 5 mining companies in the industry with heavy heavy VC investment and most of those can raise more if required. You can't empty a sink if the tap is still running.

Maybe banks already commanded more than 50% of hash power, just we don't know. Most of the actors in bitcoin mining space are short sighted and they only want to make some fiat profit, so banks will take it over easily

One benefit of the bitcoin is that it can solve banks headache of endless monetary expansion: Unlike house/national debt, bitcoin can absorb any scale of fiat money inflow without a total crash, thus the bubble of bitcoin will always become bigger after each downturn, and banks need such endless bubble to make themselves rich

However, if bitcoin is going to replace the fiat money as major payment medium, then fiat money will have no use, that will not be welcomed by banks

[hdbuck]

That only works in a closed industry with you having the only source of cash. There are at least 5 mining companies in the industry with heavy heavy VC investment and most of those can raise more if required. You can't empty a sink if the tap is still running.

Maybe banks already commanded more than 50% of hash power, just we don't know. Most of the actors in bitcoin mining space are short sighted and they only want to make some fiat profit, so banks will take it over easily

One benefit of the bitcoin is that it can solve banks headache of endless monetary expansion: Unlike house/national debt, bitcoin can absorb any scale of fiat money inflow without a total crash, thus the bubble of bitcoin will always become bigger after each downturn, and banks need such endless bubble to make themselves rich

However, if bitcoin is going to replace the fiat money as major payment medium, then fiat money will have no use, that will not be welcomed by banks

i would tend to argue this bolded statement: its no headache.. its their privilege.
+ you are wrong thinking mining companies are short sighted. on the contrary, they know they are the next payment processing industry (cf. bitfury).

[aerobatic]

thats a good point.  does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300?  ie, is it in production?

the samples that have been shown so far are from a shuttle, and thus they wont have taped out, paid a multimillion NRE and produced masks to make those samples.

[ujka]

does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300?  ie, is it in production?

Last info was that first batch of BE300 will be done in February. They must be in production now.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=833704.msg9678661#msg9678661

[aerobatic]

does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300?  ie, is it in production?

Last info was that first batch of BE300 will be done in February. They must be in production now.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=833704.msg9678661#msg9678661

thanks... its not quite the same thing.  do we know who amhash is?  do they represent friedcat or are they a customer?   all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb.  but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb.  or whenever.   all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.

 

[CanaryInTheMine]

does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300?  ie, is it in production?

Last info was that first batch of BE300 will be done in February. They must be in production now.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=833704.msg9678661#msg9678661

thanks... its not quite the same thing.  do we know who amhash is?  do they represent friedcat or are they a customer?   all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb.  but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb.  or whenever.   all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.

 

If you read relevant threads, you'd see answers to your questions.

[aerobatic]

does anyone know if asicminer has 'taped out' and produced masks for the be300?  ie, is it in production?

Last info was that first batch of BE300 will be done in February. They must be in production now.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=833704.msg9678661#msg9678661

thanks... its not quite the same thing.  do we know who amhash is?  do they represent friedcat or are they a customer?   all we know is that someone (who wasn't friedcat) said in november they would have chips back in feb.  but until we hear it from the horses mouth or from someone definitely representing him, then i don't think we know for certain that they've taped out and will definitely have the chips back in feb.  or whenever.   all we know is they continue to test the samples, but the samples aren't from a production batch and are independent from that.

 

If you read relevant threads, you'd see answers to your questions.

thats cryptic and not exactly helpful.  have you seen a tapeout announcement or friedcat recently stating availability of production chips?