Stop your BTC cheerleading and mass delusion and face the reality

[NotLambchop]

...
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  

WU?  You mean Western Union?  To transfer a billion dollars?  Only on this forum, folks

My bank charges me nothing for the transactions I make, it costs me nothing to write a check, it costs me nothing to use a debit card.
So if this billion-dollar transfer is a payment for a BTCeanie BTCaby, it would cost me exactly 40 cents less than a BTC transfer.

So now you know.

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[lyth0s]

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.

1. Convert to and from fiat is the same or more fees, plus much more hassle in many scenarios.
2. Just wait until the KYC regulations on the miners come once most of the users are accessing Bitcoin through Paypal and Coincase and other centralized choke points.
3. You need to convert to fiat before you can use it.
4. Ditto #2.
5. Bitcoin can be debased just like gold was debased in the 1800s, via fractional reserve loans denominated in BTC. Gresham's Law insures the public will adopt the most debased unit.
6. The longer your list, the more proof you provide that I am correct.

1. Pay with bitcoin you nerd.
2. Maybe they are initially buying bitcoin through a company like coinbase, but then just move it off coinbase. A smart bitcoiner would never leave a large amount of bitcoin on a centralized service, especially after the Mt. Gox problem
3. See #1. Are you mentally delayed? -- And if your argument is "well not everywhere accepts bitcoins and keeps them!" that is why were are in the adoption phase and I'm proud of that fact
4. Nope, you can never take someones bitcoin as a bail-in. If I could I'd own all of satoshi's coins right now
5. Yes there could be a fractional reserve and they would need a very small margin otherwise face quick collapse. But that still prevents endless money printing.
6. The more you argue the point, the more obvious it is that you know very little about bitcoin.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

Use cases?

1. Remittances -- very low fees compared to 10-15% of companies like western union
2. Self storage - Your accounts are not able to be "frozen" by 3rd parties
3. Portability -- You can travel to any country and immediately use your bitcoins without needing to transfer funds from one bank to another or pay additional currency exchange fees. If you tried to travel with a suitcase of cash you'd soon be broke/robbed
4. Not able to be used in Bail-ins: Example Cyprus stealing money from large account holders to bail-in their banks. And actually the G20 just agreed that bail-ins should be used before bail-outs by the IMF or the central banks....we are going to see a lot more bank failures and bail-ins in the near future
5. Known inflation/emission rate. : Take notice of argentina, or the QE in USA
6. the list goes on and on but if your too lazy to look them up then I'm going to stop here.

1. Convert to and from fiat is the same or more fees, plus much more hassle in many scenarios.
2. Just wait until the KYC regulations on the miners come once most of the users are accessing Bitcoin through Paypal and Coincase and other centralized choke points.
3. You need to convert to fiat before you can use it.
4. Ditto #2.
5. Bitcoin can be debased just like gold was debased in the 1800s, via fractional reserve loans denominated in BTC. Gresham's Law insures the public will adopt the most debased unit.
6. The longer your list, the more proof you provide that I am correct.

1. Pay with bitcoin you nerd.
2. Maybe they are initially buying bitcoin through a company like coinbase, but then just move it off coinbase. A smart bitcoiner would never leave a large amount of bitcoin on a centralized service, especially after the Mt. Gox problem
3. See #1. Are you mentally delayed? -- And if your argument is "well not everywhere accepts bitcoins and keeps them!" that is why were are in the adoption phase and I'm proud of that fact
4. Nope, you can never take someones bitcoin as a bail-in. If I could I'd own all of satoshi's coins right now
5. Yes there could be a fractional reserve and they would need a very small margin otherwise face quick collapse. But that still prevents endless money printing.
6. The more you argue the point, the more obvious it is that you know very little about bitcoin.

Evidence of delusion. Thanks.

[dropt]

Yes. We're with you Charlie. Future is bitcoin!

Sounds legit.

[franky1]

those arguing that bitcoin doesnt have a unique purpose that differs from other currencies.. please understand that FIAT no matter what country you live in, is the SAME!. it does not have any unique features differing each other.

so ask yourself if you can do everything with the dollar, that you can also do with a euro... why isnt everyone using the euro.

mastercard, american express and visa are all the same. the method of payment is no different. so ask yourself if everything can be done with mastercard, why does visa, american express exist.

western union.. blah blah... why does moneygram exist.
t-mobile blah blah.. why does vodaphone exist.
pepsi blah blah why does cocacola exist.
Mcdonalds blah blah why does burgerking exist.
budweiser blah blah why does miller/coors exist.

again dollar blah blah why does euro, pound, yuan, ruble, mpesa, peso, exist.

staying on the currency topic lets talk about global reach. the american dollar has ben literally FIGHTING for global dominance for well over 100 years, but only 320million people use it daily. thats not even 5% world adoption, so anyone defending and trying to talk people into staying with the dollar.. well it is obvious that they have an agenda..

when you realise that people prefer choices and freedoms then you will understand that bitcoin gives an extra choice.

bitcoin is actually far different than what fiat is, in many many ways. bitcoin also offers abilities and strengths that gold cannot offer. it offers many abilities that paypal, mastercard, western union, bank accounts, bank notes cannot offer. and im not even talking about anonymity.

i personally do not care about the price.. it has been days since i checked the price, and even though i hold lots of bitcoins, the price rises or drops do not matter to me one bit. as i can see the potential and future of bitcoin. that said if bitcoin was to drop to 1c i could loose hundreds of thousands of dollars of value.. but that does not phase me as im not in it for the fiat wealth or fiat retirement. once you get passed measuring bitcoin vs fiat and actually use bitcoin properly you will see what it can do for many people. without actually requiring world domination.

bitcoin doesnt need billions of users to be a success, like i said the dollar only has 320million regular users and people hail the dollar as a success.. (i am laughing while writing that statement as i think american government is delusional about its power)

lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

[solitude]

The argument: are people who are currently on this forum/using bitcoin not part of the 'broad population'?

Absolutely not. You are delusional males.

A superior math-based currency that can't be printed or counterfeited doesn't make us delusional.  Yes, the majority of bitcoin users are male.  Your point? When was the last time a majority of females ever accomplished anything whatsoever? Other than bullshit liberty-curtailing no-fun-allowed groups like MADD cunts


Men are superior to women in every way, shape and form.  Just like bitcoin is superior to every bullshit fiat currency.

If women could into math/technology or basic fucking individual freedoms, bitcoin would be a monster right now. 

[marcus_of_augustus]

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

SWIFT has no broad use case either by that idiotic logic.

[Lauda]

...
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  

WU?  You mean Western Union?  To transfer a billion dollars?  Only on this forum, folks

My bank charges me nothing for the transactions I make, it costs me nothing to write a check, it costs me nothing to use a debit card.
So if this billion-dollar transfer is a payment for a BTCeanie BTCaby, it would cost me exactly 40 cents less than a BTC transfer.

So now you know.

Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

SWIFT has no broad use case either by that idiotic logic.

Exactly.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

when you realise that people prefer choices and freedoms then you will understand that bitcoin gives an extra choice.

bitcoin is actually far different than what fiat is, in many many ways. bitcoin also offers abilities and strengths that gold cannot offer. it offers many abilities that paypal, mastercard, western union, bank accounts, bank notes cannot offer. and im not even talking about anonymity.

In theory yes Bitcoin offers autonomy.

The problem is it all breaks down at the choke point of the miners. Unfortunately.

But! To actually regulate the miners requires global cooperation of governments! So Bitcoin will force governments to accede to a global authority.

So yes, Bitcoin is unique and will have a role to play. But it will not achieve the outcome of the idealist delusion.

It will remain more of a speculation than a paradigm shift for transactions or decentralized finance, because for example to get fast transactions will require off chain, but off chain doesn't scale with Metcalf's Law, i.e. network effects are not the square of the number of users. Off chain fragments the userspace. Btw, this is a math argument, so make sure any rebuttal grasps that.

But Bitcoin is showing the way for an altcoin to provide what Bitcoin doesn't. This is the black swan possibility.

lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless

I did not agree with that point of the OP. So I do not disagree with you on that point.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.

That is not a use case for the broad population. For the broad population there is no use case, other than as a get rich speculation.

SWIFT has no broad use case either by that idiotic logic.

I said broad POPULATION use case. Can't you read?

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

The argument: are people who are currently on this forum/using bitcoin not part of the 'broad population'?

Absolutely not. You are delusional males.

A superior math-based currency that can't be printed or counterfeited doesn't make us delusional.  Yes, the majority of bitcoin users are male.  Your point?

You chopped off the part where I wrote goldbug delusion and high tech envy.

Your delusion is you grasp on to the slogans and concepts, without analysing the technical details which elucidate the delusion.

For example, goldbugs have never understood that gold was always a fiat, because the public can always loan fractional reserve units that are denominated in gold. And Gresham's Law states that bad money drives good money out-of-circulation, thus the more debased form of gold (or Bitcoin) will always drive the less debased form out-of-circulation.

As for math, see my prior post point about Metcalf's law and off chain. Etc, etc, etc. I have made so many math arguments that elucidated the delusion (in my archives and AnonyMint's archives), and I am not going to repeat them all again.

[NotLambchop]

...
Please find a flaw in this: I can send $1B with a fee of 40 cents or less.
Now go contact WU and ask them how much that would cost.  

WU?  You mean Western Union?  To transfer a billion dollars?  Only on this forum, folks

My bank charges me nothing for the transactions I make, it costs me nothing to write a check, it costs me nothing to use a debit card.
So if this billion-dollar transfer is a payment for a BTCeanie BTCaby, it would cost me exactly 40 cents less than a BTC transfer.

So now you know.

Stop trolling. I paid $25 to transfer $100 once via Western Union.
You pay a fee with banks as well, stop selling a fake story.

Of course you did.  And I've paid $50 for a coke.  There are stupid ways of sending money, and they are expensive.  Western Union is not how normal fiat transactions are done.  Certainly not how a billion-dollar transaction would be done.  If you know someone who tried to send a billion dollars via WU, give me his addy--I got some Bitcoin to sell him

If your bank charges you for writing checks and using a debit card, I suspect you have stumbled upon a fiat equivalent of Neo Bee.

[exocytosis]

Spot on, OP.

Of course, the cultists and bulltards will continue trying to lure in newbies to increase their own chance to make a profit on this MLM scheme. But there's no denying that Bitcoin will only go down in the long term, even if it somehow were able to perform another DCB to $400 or slightly above in the near to medium term.

However, I still think BTC will continue -- for several years -- having utility as a payment method on the deep web, for the purchase of illegal goods and services. But it doesn't need to be valued in the triple digits for that to be the case, and it'll most likely reach single digits sometime in 2015 or 2016 at the very latest. In the long term, another cryptocurrency (or a more advanced technology) will replace BTC as the dominant payment method on the deep web as well.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

Spot on, OP.

Of course, the cultists and bulltards will continue trying to lure in newbies to increase their own chance to make a profit on this MLM scheme. But there's no denying that Bitcoin will only go down in the long term, even if it somehow were able to perform another DCB to $400 or slightly above in the near to medium term.

However, I still think BTC will continue -- for several years -- having utility as a payment method on the deep web, for the purchase of illegal goods and services. But it doesn't need to be valued in the triple digits for that to be the case, and it'll most likely reach single digits sometime in 2015 or 2016 at the very latest. In the long term, another cryptocurrency (or a more advanced technology) will replace BTC as the dominant payment method on the deep web as well.

Check your logic. You are mixing your emotional feeling about a declining price with the reality that you see utility in the concept of a Bitcoin. Something doesn't line up in your brain.

On the next bubble, your emotions will shift in the other direction.

The OP's alleged quote of Satoshi is wrong about Bitcoin declining to 1 cent. Very wrong, regardless if Satoshi wrote that or not.

[exocytosis]

Spot on, OP.

Of course, the cultists and bulltards will continue trying to lure in newbies to increase their own chance to make a profit on this MLM scheme. But there's no denying that Bitcoin will only go down in the long term, even if it somehow were able to perform another DCB to $400 or slightly above in the near to medium term.

However, I still think BTC will continue -- for several years -- having utility as a payment method on the deep web, for the purchase of illegal goods and services. But it doesn't need to be valued in the triple digits for that to be the case, and it'll most likely reach single digits sometime in 2015 or 2016 at the very latest. In the long term, another cryptocurrency (or a more advanced technology) will replace BTC as the dominant payment method on the deep web as well.

Check your logic. You are mixing your emotional feeling about a declining price with the reality that you see utility in the concept of a Bitcoin. Something doesn't line up in your brain.

On the next bubble, your emotions will shift in the other direction.

The OP's alleged quote of Satoshi is wrong about Bitcoin declining to 1 cent. Very wrong, regardless if Satoshi wrote that or not.

Nope. I'm seeing utility, but declining utility. Technically superior cryptocurrencies will beat Bitcoin as payment methods on the deep web eventually. Bitcoin will continue losing value, but it won't be totally worthless anytime soon. Even ten years from now, it might still be valued at more than a dollar a piece, although I doubt it.

[Bit_Happy]

People, you need a reality check...

BTC could go to $50 (for example) and it is still doing really well compared to a few years ago.
~5 or 6 years is still new, so to say otherwise is simply not correct.

[UnunoctiumTesticles]

Technically superior cryptocurrencies will beat Bitcoin as payment methods on the deep web eventually.

That is the black swan. We don't know if it will happen nor whether Bitcoin will adopt new features. I tend to agree with you that an altcoin could rise, except I can tell you that I have tried to develop an altcoin from scratch (totally new code base) and the amount of work seems to be beyond what I can accomplish as one developer (although a younger guy with better health or sufficiently focused group might be able to).

I don't agree with the declining utility, because Bitcoin can remain the reserve currency of the altcoins, so as altcoins grow Bitcoin gains utility. And other utility Bitcoin can gain, per plans of Paypal, etc.. I just think the other utility won't scale as fast as the utility as a speculation delusion.

Conceptually Bitcoin shows the way to the utility of decentralized autonomy. However the protocol as it stands now lacks the feature set to make that a reality. For me to go into the details of why I think this would require several pages of text. Sorry I been there, done that. I am tired.

Edit: the altcoin hope is mostly a delusion too, is what I am trying to say in that first paragraph above. Because there is far more to it than just being technically superior. There also has to be a compelling reason to switch. No altcoin is even close to achieving that. That is why I started to take caution about wasting my valuable man-hours trying to code something far beyond my production rate and for which the outcome is very dubious at best. However I continue to search for that idea that is a "no brainer". Btw, most of the dark coins are just nonsense technology, for example Darkcoin can be Sybil attacked on master nodes and Bitcoindark can be jammed. Cryptonote ring signatures do conceptually provide end-to-end principle of the internet but they as currently implemented are very inefficient and subject to Sybil attack driving the transaction fees very high. Etc, etc, etc. The technical details are far beyond what I can write here...

[SamTsuedo]

every time the price of BTC goes down, people like OP invade the forum with their bullshit.

Every time the price of BTC goes up, people like OP look at the price, seething with rage, foaming at the mouth, wishing they invested earlier.

Price has been going down for the past 12 months, if you haven't noticed by now. BTC is cca. 70% down from the high at the end of the 2013.

My post doesn't have anything to do with the price going down from 375 to 350 USD. If you think I am that someone could be that shallow well, there's nothing more I can say.

[SamTsuedo]

those arguing that bitcoin doesnt have a unique purpose that differs from other currencies.. please understand that FIAT no matter what country you live in, is the SAME!. it does not have any unique features differing each other.

so ask yourself if you can do everything with the dollar, that you can also do with a euro... why isnt everyone using the euro.

mastercard, american express and visa are all the same. the method of payment is no different. so ask yourself if everything can be done with mastercard, why does visa, american express exist.

western union.. blah blah... why does moneygram exist.
t-mobile blah blah.. why does vodaphone exist.
pepsi blah blah why does cocacola exist.
Mcdonalds blah blah why does burgerking exist.
budweiser blah blah why does miller/coors exist.

again dollar blah blah why does euro, pound, yuan, ruble, mpesa, peso, exist.

staying on the currency topic lets talk about global reach. the american dollar has ben literally FIGHTING for global dominance for well over 100 years, but only 320million people use it daily. thats not even 5% world adoption, so anyone defending and trying to talk people into staying with the dollar.. well it is obvious that they have an agenda..

when you realise that people prefer choices and freedoms then you will understand that bitcoin gives an extra choice.

bitcoin is actually far different than what fiat is, in many many ways. bitcoin also offers abilities and strengths that gold cannot offer. it offers many abilities that paypal, mastercard, western union, bank accounts, bank notes cannot offer. and im not even talking about anonymity.

i personally do not care about the price.. it has been days since i checked the price, and even though i hold lots of bitcoins, the price rises or drops do not matter to me one bit. as i can see the potential and future of bitcoin. that said if bitcoin was to drop to 1c i could loose hundreds of thousands of dollars of value.. but that does not phase me as im not in it for the fiat wealth or fiat retirement. once you get passed measuring bitcoin vs fiat and actually use bitcoin properly you will see what it can do for many people. without actually requiring world domination.

bitcoin doesnt need billions of users to be a success, like i said the dollar only has 320million regular users and people hail the dollar as a success.. (i am laughing while writing that statement as i think american government is delusional about its power)

lastly if anyone is shouting that bitcoin is dead and will only be worth 1cent soon. how about you sell me 1bitcoin for 1c now and put your money where your mouth is. i dare you to sell me 1000 bitcoins for $10. until you are willing to do such a thing, your points are meaningless.

All of you are repeating angry phrases how bitcoin is convenient and cheap for money transactions. I never said that is the case, on the contrary. You are driving the discussion away from the main point, from the gist of my argument and that is a quote or a paraphrase of the Satoshi Nakamoto that Bitcoin will either absorb the total global economy which stands at $100 trillion now, or will cease to exist. Do you understand that the man who created Bitcoin is saying that there is no middle ground?

Do I have to repeat this one more time before any of you address it, instead of talking about 40 cents money transfer fee and other marginal stuff.

So again, the creator of Bitcoin has stated on record - written statement that BTC will either gobble up the whole of global economy or fail and cease to exist. The middle ground does not exist according to Satoshi Nakamoto. You may argue with me, but this is not me just making up things it is the quote / paraphrase of Satoshi's statement. This is one of the most important statements about bitcoin and yet everybody wants to avoid any talk about it.

I see that this thread has been moved to the Speculation section. I thought this forum was a bastion of free speech and expression not censorship , if you don't like what I am saying then refute it in an exact way and we can have a proper debate, using tactics such as these is very shady and it is a disgrace for this forum. I am sure Satoshi Nakamoto did not intend this forum to be a place of censorship and oppression of important debates.

[Dilla]

It doesn't have to absorb it all or be nothing. There are people who only use cash, won't use the internet, telephones, don't have a facebook, etc..It doesn't have to be a part of a lot of countries to succeed, just be used by a percentage of the population as a choice of payment. Just because Satoshi said it, doesn't make it true, it was just his personal opinion. Stop saying it like it's a scientific law.  This is just the start of Bitcoin. It will take years to develop and make more mainstream so the less techinically inclined people can use it and understand it. The sentiment of the forum right now is horrible. Yes, bears have been right this year, but they cannot predict the long term future of Bitcoin. Everyone needs to stop sh1tting on Bitcoin so people who google it don't come across so much negativity from people who are only trying to drive the price down and collect more coins for themselves. It scares people away and gives Bitcoin a bad name.