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Author Topic: The difference between government instituted currencies and Bitcoin is huge.  (Read 4564 times)
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Democracy is the original 51% attack


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June 26, 2012, 03:44:09 AM
 #41

OP - Bitcoin is important because, for the first time ever, individuals get 100% control over their own money. It is important because it gives the individual financial privacy and power, regardless of how many large organizations seek to take that power away. With Bitcoin, I command wealth which no government or corporation can counter. This is intensely powerful stuff, and I encourage you to ponder on its ramifications for a while.

If you prefer to let other people control your money (whether the creation of it, the storage of it, or the transfer of it), then you will likely not find significant value in Bitcoin.
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June 26, 2012, 04:07:31 AM
 #42

a lot of you are missing the point. It's not about if Bitcoin will fail from a technical standpoint. Technically, like they used to say about the United States, it cannot fail. but I don't think that's really why I made this thread... Just reflecting, the real concern is what security the little guy has. Clearly he has none because the community as a whole is as a said, a bee hive. The 51% concept applies everywhere. The 49% lose. The minority has no security. If I think differently, I'm expelled. and yes I do think differently.. I think that if I have a problem here, no one is going to help me. It's every man for himself from the bottom to the top or vice versa. It's nothing about true community. There is no trustworthy backbone.
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June 26, 2012, 04:50:18 AM
 #43

a lot of you are missing the point. It's not about if Bitcoin will fail from a technical standpoint. Technically, like they used to say about the United States, it cannot fail. but I don't think that's really why I made this thread... Just reflecting, the real concern is what security the little guy has. Clearly he has none because the community as a whole is as a said, a bee hive. The 51% concept applies everywhere. The 49% lose. The minority has no security. If I think differently, I'm expelled. and yes I do think differently.. I think that if I have a problem here, no one is going to help me. It's every man for himself from the bottom to the top or vice versa. It's nothing about true community. There is no trustworthy backbone.

What do you need help with? People are really pretty helpful here.

The little guys comprise muck more than 49% so I think you must be confused.

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June 26, 2012, 04:55:07 AM
 #44

When you have a problem with your Bitcoin, YOU are responsible.
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June 26, 2012, 06:33:59 AM
 #45

a lot of you are missing the point. It's not about if Bitcoin will fail from a technical standpoint. Technically, like they used to say about the United States, it cannot fail. but I don't think that's really why I made this thread... Just reflecting, the real concern is what security the little guy has. Clearly he has none because the community as a whole is as a said, a bee hive. The 51% concept applies everywhere. The 49% lose. The minority has no security. If I think differently, I'm expelled. and yes I do think differently.. I think that if I have a problem here, no one is going to help me. It's every man for himself from the bottom to the top or vice versa. It's nothing about true community. There is no trustworthy backbone.

What do you need help with? People are really pretty helpful here.

The little guys comprise muck more than 49% so I think you must be confused.

Funny, you said muck.. then I noticed your sig. and I knew someone would turn it back on me and ask what I need help with.. Well that's great if one or two out of 1000 are willing to help. but even that small percentage of helpful will turn their back as issues grow larger and more complex. I believe Bitcoin is elitism favored at the core, what I mean by that is the elite are favored and they show no mercy to the non-elite who dare to not be convinced of the structure of Bitcoin. and to be honest I'm making this thread, not because I think I can change anything, or to directly ridicule anyone. I've posted these thoughts an opinions firstly because I believe them, the power is available for me to post, and in the end I think I will be proven right and probably censored so I had to get it out while I can. Also, because I was bored. Sort of like the founding fathers of the United States who, probably in moments of boredom, sat down and predicted what is happening today. I'll dig up some of their quotes later on and post here. I truly believe that the founding fathers did not really have faith in their country. It was more of a positive attitude projected outward, rather than a truly convinced belief that the system was immune to evils.
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June 26, 2012, 06:59:09 AM
 #46

ridgemont, ok, so the USA is responsible
for USD.  what about gold? who is
responsible for gold?

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June 26, 2012, 07:21:39 AM
 #47

ridgemont, ok, so the USA is responsible
for USD.  what about gold? who is
responsible for gold?

That's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the true value of Bitcoin and I see a comparison with the United States. Both were created to fulfill mans greed, not mans need. The current United States does nothing for me. Neither does the current Bitcoin. and I don't think anything can change the way humanity works. This is just how it is, and we are doomed to spiral into chaos because greed is the master of most. I also believe Occupy Wall Street was inspired by greed. Anyway, the US dollar is not backed by gold.. If you think that's true, that's very laughable. It's backed by perception, just like Bitcoin at the moment, and I have yet to see the ground upon which those perceptions stand, because I really don't think it exists.

Don't get me wrong. I really wish Bitcoin was practical and actually I do believe it has the potential to be useful. It's just that the community really doesn't exist in a way that would allow it to flourish. Greed is on the forefront of the minds of those who participate in this. How you can get yours rather than how others can get theirs. For example, why would I want to accept Bitcoins when there is that chance someone could steal and leave no trace? Who am I going to cry to for help? Everyone will laugh and point, saying, you fool! you used those pesky Bitcoins and now you got robbed. Even the Bitcoin community will laugh because they will tell me I should have set up this system, or that system, etc.

What the MAIN Bitcoin site needs to do is offer true security of your wealth. an intricate accounting system for every Bitcoin is the beginning in solving this. Plus this needs to be something easily understood and communicable to those who have a short attention span of interest. People don't have much time to waste these days. If you cannot convince people easily to use it, they won't. And I have yet to be convinced myself because I really do not like how it works right now. It's too difficult, too anonymous, too elitist, swaying toward those "in the know". I feel like a prey, wasting my time chasing these coins when I can't even trust their method of storage. Maybe you can, but I can't. Doesn't matter what layers of security I've taken. Without accounting for every Bitcoin, so that each one can be traced, there's no security in my mind.
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June 26, 2012, 07:52:42 AM
 #48

sounds like you should stick with usd.  bitcoin at this point in time is not ready for Gavin's grandma but when it is perhaps you will be ready to use it.

welcome to the real world, mi amigo.  yes there is greed all around us. I argue, however, that wallstreet has more greed than bitcoiners.

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June 26, 2012, 08:09:10 AM
 #49

sounds like you should stick with usd.  bitcoin at this point in time is not ready for Gavin's grandma but when it is perhaps you will be ready to use it.

welcome to the real world, mi amigo.  yes there is greed all around us. I argue, however, that wallstreet has more greed than bitcoiners.


Why are you speaking to me in Spanish? I'm not Hispanic. and please refrain from "welcoming" me anywhere. You are nobody besides a poster on a Bitcoin forum. What authority do you have to welcome me anywhere? and yea, argue all you want. I'm not arguing anything just stated how I feel. If my opinions offend you... well maybe you're the one who needs a reality check. Opinions are all around us. Speaking of grandmothers, my grandmother is more tolerant than some of you.
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June 26, 2012, 08:55:04 AM
 #50

Ha. This is the internets where authority is not required, my friend.

Im not offended. Btw, all I did was confirm everything you said.  I agrees there is greed.  I agree that bitcoin may not be for you.

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June 26, 2012, 09:30:04 AM
 #51

the real concern is what security the little guy has

He has the security of having the option of just walking away, sell his bitcoins and stop using it. If you can't see the difference between that and governments I suggest you go to your government and tell them you'd like to leave your country without having to pay anything and without any further obligations.

Btw you also clearly misunderstand the 51% attack and what it can do.

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June 26, 2012, 09:56:53 AM
 #52

Well that's great if one or two out of 1000 are willing to help.

That's not true either. It's not like your comment was left in a corner to rot. A lot of people are conversing with you. You've been selectively replying to less helpful comments. I've asked you these questions:

  • Which problem with USD can you hold someone responsible for, that also exists in Bitcoin?
  • Do you really think that the judicial system excludes Bitcoin? What about law enforcement?
  • This one is extra: Do you think that banking/insurance is not possible with Bitcoin?

One more thing. Using Bitcoin is easy. It's not harder to use than any other form of money. But, just as people must have experienced with the introduction of new forms of payment in the past, you have to wrap your head around many new concepts and become able to reason about them clearly. At that point Bitcoin is immensely beneficial. It doesn't make sense to reduce the benefits of Bitcoin to make it more like traditional currency + banking system (interestingly you aren't talking about one or the other, you are talking about the amalgamation of both) in order to hasten adoption, it's best to patiently wait for people to take the leap. Maybe the most beneficial thing about Bitcoin isn't the tool itself, it's the modes of thinking it allows.
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June 26, 2012, 11:12:10 AM
 #53

Unlike others here I'm gonna have a go at addressing your concerns and help reason this out.

Your fear, as I understand it, is that because there is no authority to regulate the value of Bitcoin, then it will catastrophically fail one day when natural market forces suddenly swing into a bank run when some individual, agent, company, etc. sells en-masse huge numbers of coins or commits some action that panics the market and there's a massive incentive to bail out of Bitcoin. Your other posts say that you are confident that cryptographically and procedurally Bitcoin is not in danger, simply that the value of Bitcoin is not controlled by an overseeing agency. OK? ok.

Something you distinguish as critical defining qualities of the USD and BTC is:
  • USD value is regulated by the Federal Reserve.
  • BTC value is not regulated and only subject to market forces.

On the surface that looks to be a big difference but consider a further, fundamentally defining attribute.

  • Federal Reserve can create infinite credit to introduce more USD and impose "interest rates" to mitigate credit created.
  • Bitcoin has a limited supply, and fixed distribution rate. No credit.

Now, as I understand it, the Federal Reserve's purpose was to help stabilise massive economies and help prevent catastrophic crashes by creating credit to ease huge losses (essentially bail out banks) and impose interest rates in the good times to help mitigate credit introduced into the financial system (this is obviously a very simple description, and I could be wrong). The Federal reserve's initial purpose was to regulate the supply of money created by banks so inflation didn't destroy the currency, but also soften the impact of crashes in the future (I think this is why in 1907 after the crash the fed was created https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve).

Now if you noticed, USD has absolutely no distribution control, credit into the system and interest rates is largely controlled by the Fed at the whim of men in skyscrapers wearing expensive suits that are corruptible, flawed and terrifying. Bitcoin on the other hand doesn't need a central authority controlling distribution because it is already mandated how new money is created and a HARD limit on the maximum amount of money circulating in the system is very tightly controlled. Everyone that uses Bitcoin agrees to this, without exception or reservation.

What this leaves us with is the market itself. In a USD market swings in growth or a contraction in growth can be artificially slowed by the Fed. But this is also ripe for abuse, wars can be quickly funded by creating more money, as well as bailing out institutions "too big to fail", without needing to hold anyone to account. It means bad men can be kept in power and no-one will necessarily be held to account. Manipulating the money supply to small degrees doesn't adversely affect rich individuals, governments, or corporations very badly but it means the buying power of middle class and lower class is severely undercut as inflation slowly undermines the value of what little dollars they have (this means the rich stay rich since they have a huge supply of money on hand, but the middle/lower class get hit much harder financially, since they have little/nothing for when bad times arise) . Interest rates also hit the middle and lower classes the worst too. Whats more, Democratic systems can't change monetary policy since the Fed is an independent non-governmental entity.

The Bitcoin market however is a wily and uncontrolled beast as you imply. I believe the answer is a bit more grey though. In the early stages of the Bitcoin economy (like now) we will definitely have fluctuations in value that are largely beyond control, it is Bitcoin's wild west we are experiencing right now. Caveat emptor should be the catch-cry for Bitcoin novices. But the fact is that very few people have Bitcoins, the distribution is not thin enough that a single individual's buying power won't cause massive swings as large buys and sells are made. But over time as Bitcoins get distributed among more users, the Bitcoin supply slows, more businesses trade in Bitcoin, and more miners enter the race to validate blocks, I believe we'll see the value of Bitcoin reach a stable level. Bitcoinica also demonstrated how trading mechanisms can help minimise trader's fears and help stabilise Bitcoin value, lets hope another, better implemented and planned trading platform fills this gap. Bad news, and mad rushes as a new part of society embraces Bitcoin as the next big thing are definitely growing pains that we will all experience to a greater or lesser extent. An overseer could "stabilise" this, but we must weigh up the good with the bad here. Any human intervention on value is entirely corruptible, regardless of what "safety mechanisms" are put in place. The USD's Fed system is probably the worst of them all, and I for one would never want a Fed-like system, or even something similar with human(s) at the helm "Benevolently" keeping our Bitcoin's value safe. As long as Bitcoin remains useful, stable (code-wise and cryptographically wise), and well supported by the mining community, Bitcoin's value as a currency is fairly well assured. It needs no overseer.

Trust the market, or trust the Fed. Only one of these has no agenda over the value of your money.

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June 26, 2012, 01:13:33 PM
 #54

Unlike others here I'm gonna have a go at addressing your concerns and help reason this out.

Your fear, as I understand it, is that because there is no authority to regulate the value of Bitcoin, then it will catastrophically fail one day when natural market forces suddenly swing into a bank run when some individual, agent, company, etc. sells en-masse huge numbers of coins or commits some action that panics the market and there's a massive incentive to bail out of Bitcoin. Your other posts say that you are confident that cryptographically and procedurally Bitcoin is not in danger, simply that the value of Bitcoin is not controlled by an overseeing agency. OK? ok.

Something you distinguish as critical defining qualities of the USD and BTC is:
  • USD value is regulated by the Federal Reserve.
  • BTC value is not regulated and only subject to market forces.

On the surface that looks to be a big difference but consider a further, fundamentally defining attribute.

  • Federal Reserve can create infinite credit to introduce more USD and impose "interest rates" to mitigate credit created.
  • Bitcoin has a limited supply, and fixed distribution rate. No credit.

Now, as I understand it, the Federal Reserve's purpose was to help stabilise massive economies and help prevent catastrophic crashes by creating credit to ease huge losses (essentially bail out banks) and impose interest rates in the good times to help mitigate credit introduced into the financial system (this is obviously a very simple description, and I could be wrong). The Federal reserve's initial purpose was to regulate the supply of money created by banks so inflation didn't destroy the currency, but also soften the impact of crashes in the future (I think this is why in 1907 after the crash the fed was created https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve).

Now if you noticed, USD has absolutely no distribution control, credit into the system and interest rates is largely controlled by the Fed at the whim of men in skyscrapers wearing expensive suits that are corruptible, flawed and terrifying. Bitcoin on the other hand doesn't need a central authority controlling distribution because it is already mandated how new money is created and a HARD limit on the maximum amount of money circulating in the system is very tightly controlled. Everyone that uses Bitcoin agrees to this, without exception or reservation.

What this leaves us with is the market itself. In a USD market swings in growth or a contraction in growth can be artificially slowed by the Fed. But this is also ripe for abuse, wars can be quickly funded by creating more money, as well as bailing out institutions "too big to fail", without needing to hold anyone to account. It means bad men can be kept in power and no-one will necessarily be held to account. Manipulating the money supply to small degrees doesn't adversely affect rich individuals, governments, or corporations very badly but it means the buying power of middle class and lower class is severely undercut as inflation slowly undermines the value of what little dollars they have (this means the rich stay rich since they have a huge supply of money on hand, but the middle/lower class get hit much harder financially, since they have little/nothing for when bad times arise) . Interest rates also hit the middle and lower classes the worst too. Whats more, Democratic systems can't change monetary policy since the Fed is an independent non-governmental entity.

The Bitcoin market however is a wily and uncontrolled beast as you imply. I believe the answer is a bit more grey though. In the early stages of the Bitcoin economy (like now) we will definitely have fluctuations in value that are largely beyond control, it is Bitcoin's wild west we are experiencing right now. Caveat emptor should be the catch-cry for Bitcoin novices. But the fact is that very few people have Bitcoins, the distribution is not thin enough that a single individual's buying power won't cause massive swings as large buys and sells are made. But over time as Bitcoins get distributed among more users, the Bitcoin supply slows, more businesses trade in Bitcoin, and more miners enter the race to validate blocks, I believe we'll see the value of Bitcoin reach a stable level. Bitcoinica also demonstrated how trading mechanisms can help minimise trader's fears and help stabilise Bitcoin value, lets hope another, better implemented and planned trading platform fills this gap. Bad news, and mad rushes as a new part of society embraces Bitcoin as the next big thing are definitely growing pains that we will all experience to a greater or lesser extent. An overseer could "stabilise" this, but we must weigh up the good with the bad here. Any human intervention on value is entirely corruptible, regardless of what "safety mechanisms" are put in place. The USD's Fed system is probably the worst of them all, and I for one would never want a Fed-like system, or even something similar with human(s) at the helm "Benevolently" keeping our Bitcoin's value safe. As long as Bitcoin remains useful, stable (code-wise and cryptographically wise), and well supported by the mining community, Bitcoin's value as a currency is fairly well assured. It needs no overseer.

Trust the market, or trust the Fed. Only one of these has no agenda over the value of your money.

Well, thanks for trying, but it's nothing I haven't already heard before. I'm just not convinced that Bitcoin is really fulfilling any need in the world. Not that it's anyone's duty to convince me. Please don't think it is.. I just find it peculiar that anyone would preach that it does fill a need, unless you're talking about the internet black market, and that sadly would lead to a problem where those who hold Bitcoins would only have one use for them. Black market use... Perhaps this does invite some positivity in a paradoxic way in that this helps the bitcoins users of the world realize the content of the black market is really not that valuable, and they will return to the broken systems in the non-digital world and attempt to fix them rather than create a new system. I say that would be great but I don't have that kind of faith in humanity by any means.
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June 26, 2012, 03:13:39 PM
 #55

You are aware that even USD will be made completely digital here over the next few years right? Citation needed here, but it has been directly stated that the goal of our(USD) currency is to go completely digital by 2017. Would that not bother you then, as you slowly get less and less control over your own money? As banks and goverments basicly gain a 'kill switch' over your worth?

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
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June 26, 2012, 03:19:51 PM
 #56

That was a huge post by SimonL.  SimonL went out of his way to explain the differences between USD and bitcoin.  If that doesn't budge ridgemont then nothing will.  Although ridgemont did admit bitcoins have black market uses.

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June 26, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
 #57

sounds like you should stick with usd.  bitcoin at this point in time is not ready for Gavin's grandma but when it is perhaps you will be ready to use it.

welcome to the real world, mi amigo.  yes there is greed all around us. I argue, however, that wallstreet has more greed than bitcoiners.


Why are you speaking to me in Spanish? I'm not Hispanic. and please refrain from "welcoming" me anywhere. You are nobody besides a poster on a Bitcoin forum. What authority do you have to welcome me anywhere? and yea, argue all you want. I'm not arguing anything just stated how I feel. If my opinions offend you... well maybe you're the one who needs a reality check. Opinions are all around us. Speaking of grandmothers, my grandmother is more tolerant than some of you.
You don't wish to be welcomed?

OK. Get the fuck out, asshole.

Was that mean enough? Grin

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June 26, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
 #58

When you have a problem with your US Dollar, SOMEONE is responsible.
When you have a problem with your Bitcoin, NO ONE is responsible.

"Ok" you say. "What's your point?".. **WHOA**

To think I would make a thread without a point.. to troll.. to draw attention toward myself... Is that goal merely all I sought in sharing this opinion?

NOPE.

This is a HUGE observation.

BITCOIN is a currency that has NO CENTRAL AUTHORITY. This you might know, as most do, but do you know really what this implies and how this is NOT to your benefit?

Now you can respond and say I'm crazy, or you can actually think it through. Is this really better?

If government and people were ONE... the US dollar would be perfectly fine.. but BITCOIN being the solution? No I can't imagine that. I'm so sorry. You personally might be finding a use for it but that does not justify it on the level I am speaking.

Think about this: If the United States is failing, how is Bitcoin going to succeed? and why does the United States fail? because the people are failing. The very people you trust to manage their own Bitcoin based world. People will always be people! Bitcoin is no exception.

There *ALWAYS* need to be someone or something responsible for everything.. Bitcoin is chaos. The United States is Chaos. Why? Because people are Chaos and do not generally look for collective solutions unless a shallow inward incentive is sold to them. A shallow interpretation of freedom is that very incentive peddled upon the ignorant majority, employed/preached in every system doomed to fail.

I'm sorry Bitcoiners.. this is not going to work out logically for you.

The OP is utter garbage.   The whole reason Sastoshi made BTC was to take control of a exchange unit out of the control of few people and put it into a different system of management.   I think this is just trolling of the first order.  No one said BTC was the solution, just an alternative.   What ever agency sent this shill should please try and give a higher quality shill in the future.

D

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June 26, 2012, 03:43:17 PM
 #59

When you have a problem with your US Dollar, SOMEONE is responsible.
When you have a problem with your Bitcoin, NO ONE is responsible.

"Ok" you say. "What's your point?".. **WHOA**

To think I would make a thread without a point.. to troll.. to draw attention toward myself... Is that goal merely all I sought in sharing this opinion?

NOPE.

This is a HUGE observation.

BITCOIN is a currency that has NO CENTRAL AUTHORITY. This you might know, as most do, but do you know really what this implies and how this is NOT to your benefit?

Now you can respond and say I'm crazy, or you can actually think it through. Is this really better?

If government and people were ONE... the US dollar would be perfectly fine.. but BITCOIN being the solution? No I can't imagine that. I'm so sorry. You personally might be finding a use for it but that does not justify it on the level I am speaking.

Think about this: If the United States is failing, how is Bitcoin going to succeed? and why does the United States fail? because the people are failing. The very people you trust to manage their own Bitcoin based world. People will always be people! Bitcoin is no exception.

There *ALWAYS* need to be someone or something responsible for everything.. Bitcoin is chaos. The United States is Chaos. Why? Because people are Chaos and do not generally look for collective solutions unless a shallow inward incentive is sold to them. A shallow interpretation of freedom is that very incentive peddled upon the ignorant majority, employed/preached in every system doomed to fail.

I'm sorry Bitcoiners.. this is not going to work out logically for you.

The OP is utter garbage.   The whole reason Sastoshi made BTC was to take control of a exchange unit out of the control of few people and put it into a different system of management.   I think this is just trolling of the first order.  No one said BTC was the solution, just an alternative.   What ever agency sent this shill should please try and give a higher quality shill in the future.

D


The irony is your mode of attack is so unoriginal. Assuming an agency sent me.. Ok, that's already a 2011 thing to say. "Shill" oh geez, when will that one die. "first order troll". Gee, it's like the more you deflect, the less YOU must account for the words and opinions others. If anything you are the "shill", but I really hate to use that word.

There's no point in posts of your nature. Why? because you are not saying anything original. You are simply uttering the popular sentiment. Please only return if you're bringing original content.
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June 26, 2012, 03:46:14 PM
 #60

Look, I'll be kind because it's morning, I just woke up 30min ago, am still in a good mood after stretching my body so I'll explain it to you.

Why you don't have a point has nothing to do with the way you presented your point but everything to do with the validity of your point. Your point is invalid. Now the reason you don't think so is simple too! You lack the appropriate market regulated by strictly market consumers (i.e. free market) economics literacy. In other words you are illiterate in free market economics. And that's all there is. You just haven't learned all the economic principles most people around here know to be true not because they think so but because they test these principles over and over and over again in their daily lives and they always turn up to be true.

Now it's pointless for me to go into detail explaining what these principles are if you don't recognize your illiteracy and aren't open to learning them. If that isn't the case however you can head on over to www.mises.org and start learning, they have an amazing collection of reading material available in large part for completely free.

What material does an elephant need to learn to have the intellect to run away from shore hours BEFORE a Tsunami producing earthquake hits? See, I believe in intuition and other things. Hence I don't need to speak YOUR language to know what is true. Neither did those animals who ran from the coast hours before the earthquake. http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2011/08/25/strange-behavior-detected-in-animals-before-earthquake/

Everything living has a need, and that is the root. I can know instinctively when there is no root in something. I don't need to know economic jargon or any principles, although it WOULD make me some more literate as you mentioned. It's not necessary, in order for me to know the truth. Now we can end it here or I will gladly continue. I've got nothing to lose. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps I have NO point. If so then carry on in another direction. but when it comes to mocking me, belittling my sense of understanding, or censoring my opinions.. that's when it's confirmed within me that this is a failure.

Don't sit here and try and play stupid after you went off and wrote a bunch propaganda against Bitcoin and then you sit here trying to get sympathy because you can't not express your word properly.   You are a joke,  I will give every person the ability to grow and learn, so who knows, maybe we will even be friends?   Until then, why not try reading and listening more before you come here throwing around such large opinions here that you know is going to get people on here expressing their own.  

D

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