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imanikin
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July 20, 2012, 03:47:46 PM
 #121

Today is why regular citizens of America need to be able to carry firearms.

What a horrendous massacre over there in the state of Colorado!   Shocked  Cry Sad

Considering how many guns and mentally ill people there are in the world, regular citizens everywhere need the means to defend themselves. Even one sane, armed person could have made a difference...

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July 20, 2012, 03:54:59 PM
 #122

Today is why regular citizens of America need to be able to carry firearms.

And tell me how Colorado gun law was a hindrance to your dream.
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July 20, 2012, 03:57:33 PM
 #123

Today is why regular citizens of America need to be able to carry firearms.

What a horrendous massacre over there in the state of Colorado!   Shocked  Cry Sad

Considering how many guns and mentally ill people there are in the world, regular citizens everywhere need the means to defend themselves. Even one sane, armed person could have made a difference...


Of course the media is going to say this is a reason for more gun laws, which are exactly what has failed.

Isn't the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
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July 20, 2012, 06:12:26 PM
 #124

Today is why regular citizens of America need to be able to carry firearms.

And tell me how Colorado gun law was a hindrance to your dream.
It's not my dream.  Cheesy

It seems unfortunate to me that even though most of Colorado citizens are privileged to have the legal right to carry firearms, (most people in the world don't have that right) none of the ones at the scene availed themselves of the opportunity to be able to defend themselves or others...

Upon googling, i also see that unless an American citizen is from a US state with which Colorado has "reciprocity", even a citizen who is legally allowed to carry a firearm in another US state, she is not allowed to do so in Colorado:
Colorado gun laws

That restriction seems to apply even to American soldiers.  Huh

Also, looks like the Colorado and other US states' laws prohibit legal firearm carriers from carrying in places where mass shootings have already taken place in America, such as schools and universities.
 

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July 20, 2012, 06:23:06 PM
 #125

You said:

Today is why regular citizens of America need to be able to carry firearms.

And then you admitted:

It seems unfortunate to me that even though most of Colorado citizens are privileged to have the legal right to carry firearms, (most people in the world don't have that right) none of the ones at the scene availed themselves of the opportunity to be able to defend themselves or others...

I'm not seeing this as demonstrating how lenient gun laws are the solution.

I find the statistics below interesting. A google search returned this result: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/11/20-deadliest-gun-states-from-mississippi-to-arizona.html

#1, Mississippi
Gun deaths per 100,000: 18.3
Permissive gun laws: 4th out of 50

#2, Arizona
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
Permissive gun laws: 1st out of 50

#3, Alaska
Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
Permissive gun laws: 11th out of 50

#4, Arkansas
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15.1
Permissive gun laws: 7th out of 50

#5, Louisiana
Gun deaths per 100,000: 19.9
Permissive gun laws: 23rd out of 50

#6, New Mexico
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
Permissive gun laws: 6th out of 50

#7, Alabama
Gun deaths per 100,000: 17.6
Permissive gun laws: 27th out of 50

#8, Nevada
Gun deaths per 100,000: 16.2
Permissive gun laws: 22nd out of 50

#9, Montana
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
Permissive gun laws: 10th out of 50

#10, Wyoming
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.5
Permissive gun laws: 8th out of 50

#11, Kentucky
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.4
Permissive gun laws: 5th out of 50

#12, West Virginia
Gun deaths per 100,000: 14.8
Permissive gun laws: 25th out of 50

#13, Tennessee
Gun deaths per 100,000: 15
Permissive gun laws: 31st out of 50

#14, Oklahoma
Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
Permissive gun laws: 17th out of 50

#15, Idaho
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
Permissive gun laws: 2nd out of 50

#16, Georgia
Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.1
Permissive gun laws: 13th out of 50

#17, Missouri
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.9
Permissive gun laws: 12th out of 50

#18, South Carolina
Gun deaths per 100,000: 13.4
Permissive gun laws: 20th out of 50

#19, North Carolina
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.3
Permissive gun laws: 28th out of 50

#20, Florida
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.5
Permissive gun laws: 41st out of 50

#21, Kansas
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.5
Permissive gun laws: 14th out of 50

#22, Indiana
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.6
Permissive gun laws: 21st out of 50

#23, Texas
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
Permissive gun laws: 32nd out of 50

#24, Michigan
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.9
Permissive gun laws: 39th out of 50

#25, Maryland
Gun deaths per 100,000: 12.1
Permissive gun laws: 44th out of 50

#26, Colorado
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
Permissive gun laws: 24rd out of 50

#27, Pennsylvania
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
Permissive gun laws: 40th out of 50

#28, Virginia
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.7
Permissive gun laws: 35th out of 50

#29, Utah
Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.5
Permissive gun laws: 18th out of 50

#30, Vermont
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.4
Permissive gun laws: 3rd out of 50

#31, Oregon
Gun deaths per 100,000: 10.4
Permissive gun laws: 30th out of 50

#32, North Dakota
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.9
Permissive gun laws: 15th out of 50

#33, Ohio
Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.6
Permissive gun laws: 29th out of 50

#34, Maine
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.1
Permissive gun laws: 9th out of 50

#35, Delaware
Gun deaths per 100,000: 9.2
Permissive gun laws: 33rd out of 50

#36, Wisconsin
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.7
Permissive gun laws: 34th out of 50

#37, Nebraska
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
Permissive gun laws: 19th out of 50

#38, South Dakota
Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.5
Permissive gun laws: 16th out of 50

#39, Washington
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8.5
Permissive gun laws: 37th out of 50

#40, California
Gun deaths per 100,000: 9
Permissive gun laws: 50th out of 50

#41, New Hampshire
Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.9
Permissive gun laws: 26th out of 50

#42, Minnesota
Gun deaths per 100,000: 6.6
Permissive gun laws: 36th out of 50

#43, Illinois
Gun deaths per 100,000: 8
Permissive gun laws: 45th out of 50

#44, Iowa
Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.3
Permissive gun laws: 38th out of 50

#45, New York
Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.1
Permissive gun laws: 43rd out of 50

#46, New Jersey
Gun deaths per 100,000: 5.2
Permissive gun laws: 49th out of 50

#47, Connecticut
Gun deaths per 100,000: 4.3
Permissive gun laws: 46th out of 50

#48, Rhode Island
Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.5
Permissive gun laws: 42nd out of 50

#49, Massachusetts
Gun deaths per 100,000: 3.6
Permissive gun laws: 48th out of 50

#50, Hawaii
Gun deaths per 100,000: 2.8
Permissive gun laws: 47th out of 50
cryptoanarchist
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July 20, 2012, 08:13:35 PM
 #126

I'm calling bullshit.

The whole event seems like a typical scripted false flag complete with fake victims that are absent from the SSDI. Very convenient to be right before this UN Small Arms Treaty debate.

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July 20, 2012, 08:16:41 PM
 #127

I'm calling bullshit.

The whole event seems like a typical scripted false flag complete with fake victims that are absent from the SSDI. Very convenient to be right before this UN Small Arms Treaty debate.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."


This seems like it would be pretty simple to verify.. Anyone know where one can find a list of those victims?

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July 20, 2012, 08:37:07 PM
 #128

This massacre was in a gun free zone (criminal safety/defenseless victim zone) as are practically every massacre since the invention of guns.

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July 20, 2012, 08:43:42 PM
 #129

The only "people" who should be giving up their guns are the cops.  They seem to love shooting young black kids and murdering people's dogs though so I doubt this will ever happen.

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July 20, 2012, 08:45:59 PM
 #130

I'm calling bullshit.

The whole event seems like a typical scripted false flag complete with fake victims that are absent from the SSDI. Very convenient to be right before this UN Small Arms Treaty debate.

"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."


This seems like it would be pretty simple to verify.. Anyone know where one can find a list of those victims?

It may be just too soon, but there is no record of "Jessica Ghawi" in the SSDI.

However, its been over a decade and most of the 9-11 victims aren't in the SSDI either.
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July 20, 2012, 09:06:22 PM
 #131

You said:

Today is why regular citizens of America need to be able to carry firearms.

And then you admitted:

It seems unfortunate to me that even though most of Colorado citizens are privileged to have the legal right to carry firearms, (most people in the world don't have that right) none of the ones at the scene availed themselves of the opportunity to be able to defend themselves or others...

I'm not seeing this as demonstrating how lenient gun laws are the solution.

I find the statistics below interesting. A google search returned this result: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/11/20-deadliest-gun-states-from-mississippi-to-arizona.html

#1, Mississippi
Gun deaths per 100,000: 18.3
Permissive gun laws: 4th out of 50

<snip>

Could you please define "permissive gun laws?" The idea seems contradictory; by definition a law can only be restrictive, not permissive.

This angle of the issue has already been settled anyway. John Lott pretty much proved that more guns in an area (at least in the U.S.) reduce crime, not increase it.

Please take a look at his research, there's a lot of it, and several books, and it all comes from someone who originally set out to prove that guns were harmful. I applaud the guy's intellectual honesty in embracing the truth when it contradicted what he had previously believed.

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July 20, 2012, 09:07:07 PM
 #132


It may be just too soon, but there is no record of "Jessica Ghawi" in the SSDI.

However, its been over a decade and most of the 9-11 victims aren't in the SSDI either.

It's MUCH too early to expect someone who died yesterday/this morning to be in the SSDI. Nothing happens, bureacratically, without a death certificate. The death certificate isn't issued until it's signed by a coroner/medical examiner or an attending physician; and where the death was the result of a crime, there will be an autopsy. Where the death occurred as part of a mass casualty event, it may be days or weeks until the ME's office has time to perform all of the autopsies.

In my experience, it takes between 6-12 months for someone to show up in the SSDI. Part of the problem is that SSA charges a lot of $ for a copy of the SSDI, so most people end up using a database licensed by someone else from SSA, and those middlemen don't update as frequently as they could.

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July 20, 2012, 09:12:54 PM
 #133

Sucks for you, Colorado. Bye bye high cap mags...

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July 20, 2012, 09:17:56 PM
 #134


It may be just too soon, but there is no record of "Jessica Ghawi" in the SSDI.

However, its been over a decade and most of the 9-11 victims aren't in the SSDI either.

It's MUCH too early to expect someone who died yesterday/this morning to be in the SSDI. Nothing happens, bureacratically, without a death certificate. The death certificate isn't issued until it's signed by a coroner/medical examiner or an attending physician; and where the death was the result of a crime, there will be an autopsy. Where the death occurred as part of a mass casualty event, it may be days or weeks until the ME's office has time to perform all of the autopsies.

In my experience, it takes between 6-12 months for someone to show up in the SSDI. Part of the problem is that SSA charges a lot of $ for a copy of the SSDI, so most people end up using a database licensed by someone else from SSA, and those middlemen don't update as frequently as they could.



I'll be keeping my eye on this one, though. The Jessica Ghawi story sure sounds scripted at this point.

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July 20, 2012, 09:44:25 PM
 #135


I find the statistics below interesting. A google search returned this result: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/11/20-deadliest-gun-states-from-mississippi-to-arizona.html


I don't think that's a very helpful chart for thinking this through because instead of looking for a correlation, it combines data to reach some sort of blended result (death rate + an advocacy group's ranking of "permissiveness").

I think it would be more interesting to look at gun deaths per capita after removing suicides.

The problem is that guns aren't nearly the only cause of death; when I first heard about the Aurora killing last night, half of the news stories I saw when looking for information were about a suicide bombing in Bulgaria, which had nothing to do with guns but was horrible and deadly nonetheless.

There is no law we can write that will end mental illness or violence.

The impression I have is that these mass shooting/mass casualty events typically end with a surrender or a suicide as soon as the perpetrator encounters even minimal resistance; so equipping and empowering people to provide that resistance may very well save lives, even if it doesn't save every life. I honestly don't understand what's going through the mind of people who do this - but the plan/script in their minds seems to involve them being the only armed person systematically killing unarmed/helpless people, and they seem to think that when that phase has ended, that they'll either die or go into the criminal trial system for the balance of their lives.

What's interesting is that they don't seem to fit the stereotypes of either the political terror killer (cf. Beslan, Mumbai) or a movie-style "evil villain" like one would see in a Batman movie. Instead, they seem to see the killing as something that should/must be done, but they don't seem to have a concrete goal which is reached (or not reached) other than attention/publicity. So if they're stopped by a citizen with a gun after shooting 2-3 people, that's approximately as good as if they kill dozens of people. Also, they don't seem to mind the subsequent trial - perhaps even to the point of desiring it, so they don't want to fight to the death the way that a suicide terrorist or movie villain might.
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July 20, 2012, 10:16:31 PM
 #136

Here's an interesting correlation:

Same state (Colorado)
Same situation (Shooting spree)
Different result (Shooter stopped with only two deaths, not counting the shooter)
The difference: One of the potential victims had a gun, and defended himself.

(I don't know why these are lumped on the same page, the one I am referring to is the New Life shooting)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

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July 20, 2012, 11:13:49 PM
 #137

Here's an interesting correlation:

Same state (Colorado)
Same situation (Shooting spree)
Different result (Shooter stopped with only two deaths, not counting the shooter)
The difference: One of the potential victims had a gun, and defended himself.

(I don't know why these are lumped on the same page, the one I am referring to is the New Life shooting)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

That's an interesting counterexample.

The two events are on the same page because they were committed by the same person.
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July 20, 2012, 11:19:45 PM
 #138

Here's an interesting correlation:

Same state (Colorado)
Same situation (Shooting spree)
Different result (Shooter stopped with only two deaths, not counting the shooter)
The difference: One of the potential victims had a gun, and defended himself.

(I don't know why these are lumped on the same page, the one I am referring to is the New Life shooting)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

That's an interesting counterexample.

The two events are on the same page because they were committed by the same person.

...which I would have known, had I read the article, instead of just looking for an article on an incident I remembered. Derp.

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July 20, 2012, 11:41:39 PM
 #139

Heres a graph for you- http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur-crime-burglaries

Australia has some of the worlds most draconian gun laws and look where they sit on the burglary statistics.

Nearly every house Ive lived in someone has broken in and stolen something. The other week they raided my garage and took a heap of stuff. If I happened to hurt or injure that burglar I would be sued or in jail and the burglar will be free to walk around.

Tell me thats not fucked up.


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July 21, 2012, 04:56:01 AM
 #140

This firsthand account may be interesting to tinfoil hatters:
http://aloha.pk/index.php?topic=849.msg6202;boardseen#new

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