Guns

[vampire]

Just for fun: create tables of criminals statistics for sweden: http://statistik.bra.se/solwebb/action/index

Killings by gun 2011 (per 100 000):  <0.5  (margin of error 0.5)
Killings by any means 2011 (per 100 000): 2   (margin of error 0.5)

I've personally never seen a handgun, except in military service and the ones the police are carrying. I never seen a drawn gun ever, except in shooting ranges.


Last year Swedish customs seized 20 illegals guns, a huge increase compared to earlier years, leading to new laws.

Sweden is slightly larger then NYC with a homogenized culture. In US we still have white vs black vs hispanic vs asians thing going on.

Tiny Hawaii have less murder rate than Sweden :-) There are also few other states like that - New Hampshire (1.3mil), Vermont (600k).., Let me actually get a chart - murder rate vs population size.

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[myrkul]

You don't read too well, do you?

"Hurt" is an ambiguous word.

/sigh...

Very well...

Shall we use the more precise term "damage"?

dam·age
   [dam-ij] noun, verb, dam·aged, dam·ag·ing.
noun
1. injury or harm that reduces value or usefulness: The storm did considerable damage to the crops.

verb (used with object)
4. to cause damage to; injure or harm; reduce the value or usefulness of: He damaged the saw on a nail.

[TheBitcoinChemist]

While that is impressive, it's distorted in the same way that Cincinnati's stats are distorted.  No rational person considers the surrounding suburbs and exurbs to be "the city".  Remove NJ & PA stats from the mix and where does NYC actually fall?  Probably not bad, in any case; a police state does have it's pratical effects, but I still wouldn't want to live there.  And like I said, I've known people that were born there, and I've known people that moved there; and none that I've known have recommended living there.

I posted wiki link.... It has NYC by itself, NYC isn't really police state. I would say our cops are much more sane than the rest of the country. You are more likely to get abused by a cop in Long Island than in NYC.

Wiki link again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

I was going off that other chart, which explicitly notes that NJ & PA are included in the NYC stats.  That said, let's take a good look at the link data above...

Kentucky Louisville Metro Population 637,428     Aggragate violent crime rate 585.8 Per 100K population
New York New York         Population 8,336,002  Aggragate violent crime rate 581.7 Per 100K population

Based upon that number alone, your odds of becoming any kind of violent crime victim in Louisville are slightly higher than NYC but roughly 13 times as many such crimes are committed in NYC than Louisville.  The number of licensed handgun owners in NYC (excluding current & former cops) is less than 1%, while more than 10% of the adult population in Louisville has a license just to carry concealed because open carry doesn't require a license.  So what does it take to get such comparable numbers?  NYC has 36K uniformed police officers, or rougly one cop per 232 people. (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department)  Meanwhile, Louisville has no numbers that I can find published, but there is this...http://content.usatoday.com/communities/greenhouse/post/2010/09/safest-us-cities-may-suprise-you/1

Also, your reference data notes that aggravated assualt is more than 50% more likely in NYC than Louisville Ky (327.6 per 100K in NYC versus 290.2 per 100K in Louisville) and this obviously only includes reported crimes, hard to say how many such crimes occur and go unreported (or improperly recorded) in either locale.
 

[vampire]

Also, your reference data notes that aggravated assualt is more than 50% more likely in NYC than Louisville Ky (327.6 per 100K in NYC versus 290.2 per 100K in Louisville) and this obviously only includes reported crimes, hard to say how many such crimes occur and go unreported (or improperly recorded) in either locale.

50% you say?

[TheBitcoinChemist]

Also, your reference data notes that aggravated assualt is more than 50% more likely in NYC than Louisville Ky (327.6 per 100K in NYC versus 290.2 per 100K in Louisville) and this obviously only includes reported crimes, hard to say how many such crimes occur and go unreported (or improperly recorded) in either locale.

50% you say?

Duh, sorry.  I looked at those numbers wrong.  15% then?

[vampire]

Also, your reference data notes that aggravated assualt is more than 50% more likely in NYC than Louisville Ky (327.6 per 100K in NYC versus 290.2 per 100K in Louisville) and this obviously only includes reported crimes, hard to say how many such crimes occur and go unreported (or improperly recorded) in either locale.

50% you say?

Duh, sorry.  I looked at those numbers wrong.  15% then?

11%. But you have 22% higher chance to be killed in your town :-)

[TheBitcoinChemist]

According to this... http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=135&ArticleID=55793

There are roughly 1600 police & civilian employees in the Louisville PD (2010).  Assumming all were cops, that would make a ratio of about 398 people per officer in Louisville, Kentucky. (higher if I use Wikipedia's population numbers instead of the data provided by yourself)  Big difference in just the public salaries for NYC to maintain those kind of numbers.  You may think that it is worth it, but I don't.

[TheBitcoinChemist]

Also, your reference data notes that aggravated assualt is more than 50% more likely in NYC than Louisville Ky (327.6 per 100K in NYC versus 290.2 per 100K in Louisville) and this obviously only includes reported crimes, hard to say how many such crimes occur and go unreported (or improperly recorded) in either locale.

50% you say?

Duh, sorry.  I looked at those numbers wrong.  15% then?

11%. But you have 22% higher chance to be killed in your town :-)

True, but that stat includes manslaughter, which is a weird thing to do here because the vast majority of manslaughter charges are related to vehicular deaths with illegal root causes, such as DUI's.  I'll admit up front that we have way too many drunks driving, that's normal in Kentucky, home of bourbon.  Both Jim Beam & Maker's Mark distilleries are within 20 miles of Louisville.  (http://www.visitbardstown.com/tourism/bourbon.html)

This, of course, has zero to do with gun crimes, or even any kind of deliberate violent crime at all, otherwise it would be called murder, not manslaughter.

EDIT:  Ironicly, even dispite the high rate of DUI's in Louisville, my auto insurance is half what it would be in NYC for completely different reasons.  Mostly because almost all of my premium goes to the insurance company to actually protect against risk, whereas almost half of such premiums in NYC goes to the state or city taxes on insurance.  So what New Yorkers could actually save in real life is more than overdone by what government can get out of it.  Happy paying for all those police salaries & pensions citizen?

[vampire]

According to this... http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=135&ArticleID=55793

There are roughly 1600 police & civilian employees in the Louisville PD (2010).  Assumming all were cops, that would make a ratio of about 398 people per officer in Louisville, Kentucky. (higher if I use Wikipedia's population numbers instead of the data provided by yourself)  Big difference in just the public salaries for NYC to maintain those kind of numbers.  You may think that it is worth it, but I don't.

Few factors:

Density:

NYC: 27,243.06/sq mi
Louisville: 1,924/sq mi

NYC is highly packed with a lot of different cultures

NYC has 33% white, 28.6 hispanic, 23% black, 13% asians
Louisville is mostly white - 71.8% white 22% black

[vampire]

EDIT:  Ironicly, even dispite the high rate of DUI's in Louisville, my auto insurance is half what it would be in NYC for completely different reasons.  Mostly because almost all of my premium goes to the insurance company to actually protect against risk, whereas almost half of such premiums in NYC goes to the state or city taxes on insurance.  So what New Yorkers could actually save in real life is more than overdone by what government can get out of it.  Happy paying for all those police salaries & pensions citizen?

http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/most-and-least-expensive-states-2010.html

What's your insurance rate? Mine is standard 100/300 with bodily harm extras - $50/mo

[TheBitcoinChemist]

EDIT:  Ironicly, even dispite the high rate of DUI's in Louisville, my auto insurance is half what it would be in NYC for completely different reasons.  Mostly because almost all of my premium goes to the insurance company to actually protect against risk, whereas almost half of such premiums in NYC goes to the state or city taxes on insurance.  So what New Yorkers could actually save in real life is more than overdone by what government can get out of it.  Happy paying for all those police salaries & pensions citizen?

What's your insurance rate?

IIRC just under $500 for six months; myself & my wife, two cars, both of us over 25 with spotless 5 year records.

[myrkul]

It's really simple: the best way to ensure that I have maximum liberty is to ensure that everyone has maximum liberty.

I want liberty. I want peace. I want to be able to do anything I want, so long as I don't hurtdamage anyone else.

dam·age
   [dam-ij] noun, verb, dam·aged, dam·ag·ing.
noun
1. injury or harm that reduces value or usefulness: The storm did considerable damage to the crops.

verb (used with object)
4. to cause damage to; injure or harm; reduce the value or usefulness of: He damaged the saw on a nail.

That includes the freedom to carry any weapon so desired for personal defense. Whether a fully-automatic M-16 or a derringer pistol, a holstered/slung weapon is not hurtingdamaging anyone.

[vampire]

That includes the freedom to carry any weapon so desired for personal defense. Whether a fully-automatic M-16 or a derringer pistol, a holstered/slung weapon is not hurtingdamaging anyone.

If you don't mine me jerking off infront of your family, blasting my music all night long, driving my car the way i want - i am fine.

[TheBitcoinChemist]

According to this... http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=135&ArticleID=55793

There are roughly 1600 police & civilian employees in the Louisville PD (2010).  Assumming all were cops, that would make a ratio of about 398 people per officer in Louisville, Kentucky. (higher if I use Wikipedia's population numbers instead of the data provided by yourself)  Big difference in just the public salaries for NYC to maintain those kind of numbers.  You may think that it is worth it, but I don't.

Few factors:

Density:

NYC: 27,243.06/sq mi
Louisville: 1,924/sq mi

NYC is highly packed with a lot of different cultures

NYC has 33% white, 28.6 hispanic, 23% black, 13% asians
Louisville is mostly white - 71.8% white 22% black

Sure, there are demographic and cultural differences, but that is an argument in favor of concealed carry licenses in NYC.  Cultural differences cause social tensions, and when the criminal element in a particular person takes advantage of such tensions, the other person(s) have a right to defend themselves regardless of their attacker's hard knock backstory.  In Louisville, such tensions are nearly nonexistant, because there is no distinction between the rights of one group over another; whether that is the badged over the badgeless or one demographic over another.  The carry rates of black men in Louisville are negligblely different than white men, because their reasons for wanting to carry one and rights to do so are identical.  Does it not concern you at all that in NYC an employee of the city has very real rights that you do not share?  Sure they have firearm safety training that you lack, but what says that you cannot get the same degree of training without the job?  I've had many hours of firearm safety training, both during and since my military service.

[vampire]

Sure, there are demographic and cultural differences, but that is an argument in favor of concealed carry licenses in NYC.  Cultural differences cause social tensions, and when the criminal element in a particular person takes advantage of such tensions, the other person(s) have a right to defend themselves regardless of their attacker's hard knock backstory.  In Louisville, such tensions are nearly nonexistant, because there is no distinction between the rights of one group over another; whether that is the badged over the badgeless or one demographic over another.  The carry rates of black men in Louisville are negligblely different than white men, because their reasons for wanting to carry one and rights to do so are identical.  Does it not concern you at all that in NYC an employee of the city has very real rights that you do not share?  Sure they have firearm safety training that you lack, but what says that you cannot get the same degree of training without the job?  I've had many hours of firearm safety training, both during and since my military service.

I assume you understand that NYC is tightly packed that a miss shot would find a target? Most people in NYC don't want guns, they want to smoke pot.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12903602-4-year-old-boy-shot-dead-on-nyc-playground

[myrkul]

That includes the freedom to carry any weapon so desired for personal defense. Whether a fully-automatic M-16 or a derringer pistol, a holstered/slung weapon is not hurtingdamaging anyone.

If you don't mine me jerking off infront of your family, blasting my music all night long, driving my car the way i want - i am fine.

You can drive however you want, too. But if you damage someone or their property, you will be liable for that. (oh hey, there's a legal term just for this:

2. damages, Law . the estimated money equivalent for detriment or injury sustained.

How handy!)

If I can show damages (most likely therapy bills in the former, and lost productivity at work in the latter) for the other two examples, you'll be liable for that, too.

[TheBitcoinChemist]

That includes the freedom to carry any weapon so desired for personal defense. Whether a fully-automatic M-16 or a derringer pistol, a holstered/slung weapon is not hurtingdamaging anyone.

If you don't mine me jerking off infront of your family, blasting my music all night long, driving my car the way i want - i am fine.

Obviously not comparable.  In order for you to jerk off in from of my family, you must either be on my property (where jerking off is prohibited by the property owner, just as you could prohibit my handgun from your property) or doing so in a public venue, where jerking off is prohibited because it's offensive in public, not because it's banned.  Blasting your music all night can cause real damage to neighbors.  Driving is a privilage, not a right.  Notice none of those activities were mentioned in any amendments to the US Constitution, whereas the right to own and bear (as in carry) a firearm is specificly mentioned.

As far as a firearm in public being offensive, this argument was actually used by Cincinnati at one time.  Cincinnati didn't prohibit open carry per se, but considered openly carrying a firearm (whether loaded or not) to be a crime called "inciting panic".  This went to the Ohio Supreme Court which basicly told the entire state that open carry laws were unconstitutional unless the state permitted 'shall issue' concealed carry licenses.  Ohio is now a CC state, and the 'inciting panic' laws in Cincinnati remain effective.  Basicly the court said that there has to be a legal way an average (and unbadged) adult could excercise their second amendment rights, and if there was no practical way to do this, the laws that prevented it were unconsittutional regardless of their actual intent or original applications.

[TheBitcoinChemist]

Sure, there are demographic and cultural differences, but that is an argument in favor of concealed carry licenses in NYC.  Cultural differences cause social tensions, and when the criminal element in a particular person takes advantage of such tensions, the other person(s) have a right to defend themselves regardless of their attacker's hard knock backstory.  In Louisville, such tensions are nearly nonexistant, because there is no distinction between the rights of one group over another; whether that is the badged over the badgeless or one demographic over another.  The carry rates of black men in Louisville are negligblely different than white men, because their reasons for wanting to carry one and rights to do so are identical.  Does it not concern you at all that in NYC an employee of the city has very real rights that you do not share?  Sure they have firearm safety training that you lack, but what says that you cannot get the same degree of training without the job?  I've had many hours of firearm safety training, both during and since my military service.

I assume you understand that NYC is tightly packed that a miss shot would find a target? Most people in NYC don't want guns, they want to smoke pot.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12903602-4-year-old-boy-shot-dead-on-nyc-playground

when I was taking courses for my Ky CC license, they went to great lengths to drive home the point that every CC holder is still responsible for every round and where it goes.  All guns laws still applied; for example brandishing (i.e. pulling out the weapon without a legitimate cause, as determined by a jury after the fact) is illegal and even once will get your licesnse revoked forever.  Also, even mentioning that you have a weapon, without showing it, can be construed as a threat; which is why I said what I said in the previous post about my buddy from NYC.  The part about not being able to answer the next question.  Yes, NYC is certainly a bystander rich environment, but the greatest effect on crime that CC licensees have is as a credible threat, not an active combatant.  In another study, that I can't find right now, the results suggested (via serveys of long standing CC licensees) that up to 20 times as many crimes are prevented by the mere exposure of the handgun as have been reported.  Even half that would be a huge gain even for relatively safe NYC, and would have a long term effect (I consider positive) on the criminal subcultures in NYC, and you can't honestly tell me that there is no criminal subculture there.  It wouldn't be hard for NYC to be challenging Toronto's crime stats.

[vampire]

Sure, there are demographic and cultural differences, but that is an argument in favor of concealed carry licenses in NYC.  Cultural differences cause social tensions, and when the criminal element in a particular person takes advantage of such tensions, the other person(s) have a right to defend themselves regardless of their attacker's hard knock backstory.  In Louisville, such tensions are nearly nonexistant, because there is no distinction between the rights of one group over another; whether that is the badged over the badgeless or one demographic over another.  The carry rates of black men in Louisville are negligblely different than white men, because their reasons for wanting to carry one and rights to do so are identical.  Does it not concern you at all that in NYC an employee of the city has very real rights that you do not share?  Sure they have firearm safety training that you lack, but what says that you cannot get the same degree of training without the job?  I've had many hours of firearm safety training, both during and since my military service.

I assume you understand that NYC is tightly packed that a miss shot would find a target? Most people in NYC don't want guns, they want to smoke pot.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12903602-4-year-old-boy-shot-dead-on-nyc-playground

when I was taking courses for my Ky CC license, they went to great lengths to drive home the point that every CC holder is still responsible for every round and where it goes.  All guns laws still applied; for example brandishing (i.e. pulling out the weapon without a legitimate cause, as determined by a jury after the fact) is illegal and even once will get your licesnse revoked forever.  Also, even mentioning that you have a weapon, without showing it, can be construed as a threat; which is why I said what I said in the previous post about my buddy from NYC.  The part about not being able to answer the next question.  Yes, NYC is certainly a bystander rich environment, but the greatest effect on crime that CC licensees have is as a credible threat, not an active combatant.  In another study, that I can't find right now, the results suggested (via serveys of long standing CC licensees) that up to 20 times as many crimes are prevented by the mere exposure of the handgun as have been reported.  Even half that would be a huge gain even for relatively safe NYC, and would have a long term effect (I consider positive) on the criminal subcultures in NYC, and you can't honestly tell me that there is no criminal subculture there.  It wouldn't be hard for NYC to be challenging Toronto's crime stats.

My whole reason posting here was to prove to everyone - no statistics exists that proves that guns increase or reduce violence. Let's go again with your statistics. Since your city with CC has higher crime rate than NYC. Guns are a hobby, nothing to do with crime.

edit: Toronto crime rate is lower, but does it have to do with their draconian gun laws in the WHOLE country?

[myrkul]

My whole reason posting here was to prove to everyone - no statistics exists that proves that guns increase or reduce violence.

Well, if you take out the pragmatic arguments, then that just leaves the moral...

That includes the freedom to carry any weapon so desired for personal defense. Whether a fully-automatic M-16 or a derringer pistol, a holstered/slung weapon is not hurtingdamaging anyone.