A public plea to SealsWithClubs

[Daily Anarchist]

For the love of God please go "public" with Seals!

Seals has been around for a looooooonnnnggggg time now and it's still dead as shit! The friggin' Sunday night 60 BTC guarantee still doesn't even net profit. The ring games lag ass, too!

It's not because freemoney doesn't rock. He does! It's not because Bitcoin doesn't make poker way cooler. It does! Then why does SealsWithClubs still suck balls?

The one and only reason I can think of is because Seals is running a garbage ass poker client. It's proprietary software. Strike one. It runs on a Windows server. Strike two. The software itself sucks too. Strike three!

I want SWC to succeed for two main reasons. I want to play real fucking poker online like I used to when Full Tilt was still around. And second, I want to see Bitcoin succeed even quicker than it already is. If SWC can become a kickass company, both of my goals will happen as a result.

In my not-so-humble opinion, SWC needs to invest in some seriously kickass poker software. That costs money, more money than he is willing to risk. So, go public on GLBSE. Raise tens of thousands of dollars. Turn Seals into a real company with shareholders, and a board of directors, a CEO, shit, whatever the hell it takes to turn Seals into a vibrant online Bitcoin poker community. Because right now it appears to be going nowhere fast.

Does anybody else out there agree? If so, please speak up! freemoney needs some encouragement!

[teek]

I would get behind this in a second.

I've played on SWC a few times.. yeah it could definitely use a facelift. but its playable. 

Bridging the gap from Pokerstars player with visa to SWC player with Bitcoin is what's important..  Pulling that off would be game changer..

[EnergyVampire]

For the love of God please go "public" with Seals!

Seals has been around for a looooooonnnnggggg time now and it's still dead as shit! The friggin' Sunday night 60 BTC guarantee still doesn't even net profit. The ring games lag ass, too!

It's not because freemoney doesn't rock. He does! It's not because Bitcoin doesn't make poker way cooler. It does! Then why does SealsWithClubs still suck balls?

The one and only reason I can think of is because Seals is running a garbage ass poker client. It's proprietary software. Strike one. It runs on a Windows server. Strike two. The software itself sucks too. Strike three!

I want SWC to succeed for two main reasons. I want to play real fucking poker online like I used to when Full Tilt was still around. And second, I want to see Bitcoin succeed even quicker than it already is. If SWC can become a kickass company, both of my goals will happen as a result.

In my not-so-humble opinion, SWC needs to invest in some seriously kickass poker software. That costs money, more money than he is willing to risk. So, go public on GLBSE. Raise tens of thousands of dollars. Turn Seals into a real company with shareholders, and a board of directors, a CEO, shit, whatever the hell it takes to turn Seals into a vibrant online Bitcoin poker community. Because right now it appears to be going nowhere fast.

Does anybody else out there agree? If so, please speak up! freemoney needs some encouragement!

Hello Daily Anarchist,

Is there any Open Source Poker Software you would recommend to FreeMoney (SealsWithClubs)?

[Daily Anarchist]

For the love of God please go "public" with Seals!

Seals has been around for a looooooonnnnggggg time now and it's still dead as shit! The friggin' Sunday night 60 BTC guarantee still doesn't even net profit. The ring games lag ass, too!

It's not because freemoney doesn't rock. He does! It's not because Bitcoin doesn't make poker way cooler. It does! Then why does SealsWithClubs still suck balls?

The one and only reason I can think of is because Seals is running a garbage ass poker client. It's proprietary software. Strike one. It runs on a Windows server. Strike two. The software itself sucks too. Strike three!

I want SWC to succeed for two main reasons. I want to play real fucking poker online like I used to when Full Tilt was still around. And second, I want to see Bitcoin succeed even quicker than it already is. If SWC can become a kickass company, both of my goals will happen as a result.

In my not-so-humble opinion, SWC needs to invest in some seriously kickass poker software. That costs money, more money than he is willing to risk. So, go public on GLBSE. Raise tens of thousands of dollars. Turn Seals into a real company with shareholders, and a board of directors, a CEO, shit, whatever the hell it takes to turn Seals into a vibrant online Bitcoin poker community. Because right now it appears to be going nowhere fast.

Does anybody else out there agree? If so, please speak up! freemoney needs some encouragement!

Hello Daily Anarchist,

Is there any Open Source Poker Software you would recommend to FreeMoney (SealsWithClubs)?

Free and Open Source Software would be the tits, no doubt about it. And really, I think that's the way things are headed eventually anyways. It would help to add a lot of trust to sites if the code were all open source.

This is the only thing I know of. I have no idea why the project died.

https://github.com/hippich/Bitcoin-Poker-Room

It, or something like it, could definitely be implemented with some full-time programmers. There just doesn't seem to be anybody funding it. And I can understand that. Who wants to drop a bunch of money into a FOSS poker client just to see somebody else open up some competition a month after you've paid for it all? But that's not to say it's not possible. On a side note I tend to think that in the future online poker rooms won't charge any rake, but will get all of their money through advertisements appearing on the poker table. Imagine, a new advertisement on the table each hand, but no rake involved. Just get creative!

[SgtSpike]

Personally, I just think it needs to be heavily (and I mean heavily) advertised outside of the Bitcoin realm.  The market for Bitcoin users who play poker is saturated - now it's time to move on to the market for poker players who might be willing to use Bitcoin.

I have no qualms with the software.  It gets the job done, and I never see lag myself.  Why do you hate it so much Daily Anarchist?

[Scott J]

The first person to make some bitcoin compatible software that's comparable to full-tilt/pokerstars/etc. will make a shed load of BTC.

The suggestion to get a GLBSE listing going is a good one -we could all invest and reap the rewards  

Do we have enough skills in the community to pull this off and how much would it cost?

[Daily Anarchist]

Personally, I just think it needs to be heavily (and I mean heavily) advertised outside of the Bitcoin realm.  The market for Bitcoin users who play poker is saturated - now it's time to move on to the market for poker players who might be willing to use Bitcoin.

I have no qualms with the software.  It gets the job done, and I never see lag myself.  Why do you hate it so much Daily Anarchist?

I don't mean lags in a delay sort of way, just that it sucks.

[SgtSpike]

Personally, I just think it needs to be heavily (and I mean heavily) advertised outside of the Bitcoin realm.  The market for Bitcoin users who play poker is saturated - now it's time to move on to the market for poker players who might be willing to use Bitcoin.

I have no qualms with the software.  It gets the job done, and I never see lag myself.  Why do you hate it so much Daily Anarchist?

I don't mean lags in a delay sort of way, just that it sucks.

Oh ok.  I haven't been involved in any other poker sites, really, so I don't know what I am missing compared to Full Tilt or Poker Stars.  Care to enlighten the uninformed?  What do those popular sites have that seals with clubs does not?

It's probably a case of ignorance - I just don't know that there is better software out there.

[Clipse]

Well a while back I was interested in getting a team together to improve on the Holdingnuts opensource poker client but that idea fell through.

The source is freely available on holdingnuts.net so you could improve it wherever you want.

[dooglus]

Oh ok.  I haven't been involved in any other poker sites, really, so I don't know what I am missing compared to Full Tilt or Poker Stars.  Care to enlighten the uninformed?  What do those popular sites have that seals with clubs does not?

It's probably a case of ignorance - I just don't know that there is better software out there.

It's really hard to put your finger on, but if you try the PokerStars client, and then try the Seals one, you'll see what he means I think.  The PokerStars client just feels slick.  The games flow smoother, the user experience is just somehow better.  Maybe part of it is that PokerStars is a native app, and Seals is stuck in a browser tab, faking a multi-window environment inside a flash app.  Even running the Windows version of PokerStars in Linux using WINE feels better than the Seals flash app.

[finkleshnorts]

Personally, I just think it needs to be heavily (and I mean heavily) advertised outside of the Bitcoin realm.  The market for Bitcoin users who play poker is saturated - now it's time to move on to the market for poker players who might be willing to use Bitcoin.

I have no qualms with the software.  It gets the job done, and I never see lag myself.  Why do you hate it so much Daily Anarchist?

This.

Internet poker for real money is mostly a virgin market in the U.S... When people realize that bitcoin as real as real money can get, then this site will be booming... regardless the software IMO.

[FreeMoney]

Marketing is our short and medium term focus. We are testing an affiliate program now, email affiliates@sealswithclubs.eu if you want to help with that.

Poker software is not a simple project, and pouring money in does not guarantee good results. I don't think the tens of thousands that we probably could raise on GLBSE would suffice. I expect better bitcoin poker software will come from someone(s) that have the right skills and are passionate about the project or from some company that already has top quality poker software available to it.

Poker Stars software is superb, I have played several million hands on it and I love(d) it. It cost them millions of dollars and I expect over a million dollars/year to maintain and improve. You can't get that quality for cheap.

I really hope a big player makes it happen before long. I think it is inevitable.

[Inaba]

You guys know you can play poker with Bitcoins on SwitchPoker right?

[ColdHardMetal]

You guys know you can play poker with Bitcoins on SwitchPoker right?

If I recall correctly you can deposit with BTC, and play in USD (or maybe EUR), but can't withdraw in BTC. Not quite the same.

I may be mis-remembering, or things  may have changed since last I checked.

[notme]

You guys know you can play poker with Bitcoins on SwitchPoker right?

If I recall correctly you can deposit with BTC, and play in USD (or maybe EUR), but can't withdraw in BTC. Not quite the same.

I may be mis-remembering, or things  may have changed since last I checked.

Play is in EUR but you covert whenever you want (I keep my stash in BTC when not playing).  You can withdraw in BTC, but there was a 20BTC minimum last time I was on there.

[ColdHardMetal]

You guys know you can play poker with Bitcoins on SwitchPoker right?

If I recall correctly you can deposit with BTC, and play in USD (or maybe EUR), but can't withdraw in BTC. Not quite the same.

I may be mis-remembering, or things  may have changed since last I checked.

Play is in EUR but you covert whenever you want (I keep my stash in BTC when not playing).  You can withdraw in BTC, but there was a 20BTC minimum last time I was on there.

Fair enough. Thanks for the correction.

[BitcoinFunding.com]

If they want to raise funds on bitcoinfunding.com I will allow them to setup a project for a 0% fee.

[ssaCEO]

We've run offshore to non-US players for almost a year, and we've consulted on this with some of the best gaming lawyers on the planet, and here's our unvarnished, and unpopular view:

1. The market among Bitcoiners who occasionally play poker is saturated, as SgtSpike said.

2. Freemoney's right on all counts: Pouring money into a slicker client isn't necessarily going mean an instant gold poker site (see: BTCOnTilt), and really high end poker software does cost millions, or at least hundreds of thousands to develop and refine. I started working on our software 4 years ago and I'm still improving it. I wouldn't claim it's anywhere near the level of PokerStars downloadable product in terms of features & whatnot. It's glossier than Mavens, but Freemoney's beating the shit out of us in terms of player volume. The point is, there is much more to building a successful poker site than having good software. And to be realistic, there isn't enough of a current Bitcoin poker market to justify further feature enhancement or even a mobile client for us at this point... let alone hiring a team to start coding what would be a $250-500k next gen project from scratch.

3. Bitcoin poker can't be profitable until it starts drawing players away from sites that take mainstream deposit methods: People who've never used Bitcoin before. What's the incentive for Europeans to leave Moneybookers and start playing poker for Bitcoins - even if that Bitcoin site has a beautiful $1M poker client? People go where other players are. The entire Bitcoin poker market right now, even though it's almost completely concentrated on Seals, is nowhere near large enough to gain traction to steal players from Stars.

No, the people who will willingly switch to Bitcoin are the ones whose options have run out, because their country has banned online gambling. And in the case of poker, that means Americans.

So the American general public is certainly ripe for *any* site that lets them play poker. They'll jump through any hoops to get Bitcoins and get there, and they don't care what the software looks like (not that much, anyway). And if Seals builds that market sufficiently before a major player steps in with existing, glossy software, they may have enough momentum to stay relevant without ever paying for a software upgrade.

But in order to do this, they would need to start marketing Bitcoin as a new way of playing poker to the American general public, outside of the Bitcoin circuit. This is what the long-awaited Infinitipoker is doing, with big sponsorships and apparently serious investment.

So it's worth asking: If there's this virgin market for American poker players, why is it that PokerStars and Party Poker and Playtech and Microgaming haven't opened up Bitcoin deposits to Americans? In a word: It's probably illegal. And no one in their right mind wants to be the first to test in court the theory that taking Bitcoins for online poker is somehow different than taking Western Union. In all probability, it isn't. A small site with no existing stake in the industry or future Vegas contracts to blow, and which flies under the radar and does not market to mainstream American consumers, may be able to make a bit of cash from the situation over the next 1-2 years before online poker is re-legalized under Vegas ownership in America. They would need to be very careful about not making too much noise, and getting out before the shit hits the fan. A site that has aspirations of becoming the next PokerStars will never, ever make enough money off Bitcoin poker games to finance the legal bill they'll see when the Justice Department comes knocking. Moreover, they will have blown their shot at future legitimacy; they will never be legally licensed in the US at some later date. That is the situation; it appears to be a wide-open playing field, but it's actually empty because all the other players have either been arrested or have already been given a backdoor deal and are waiting for a green light to re-enter the market.

Freemoney is doing the sensible thing. A GLBSE offering - which is probably illegal itself - and mass-marketing to Americans who are the only really viable market who would switch to Bitcoins to play poker right now, would be suicide.

[Inaba]

ssaCEO, I don't disagree with what you've said, but here's the thing:

They can't make a bitcoin poker site illegal unless they make "free" poker sites illegal as well.  To do that, they would have to legitimize BTC as a valid currency and as "real" money.  That's the last thing they want to do... so a BTC poker site would be tough to shut down on those grounds, simply because it would open a different can of worms that no one in the current financial industry wants opened.

[SgtSpike]

ssaCEO, I don't disagree with what you've said, but here's the thing:

They can't make a bitcoin poker site illegal unless they make "free" poker sites illegal as well.  To do that, they would have to legitimize BTC as a valid currency and as "real" money.  That's the last thing they want to do... so a BTC poker site would be tough to shut down on those grounds, simply because it would open a different can of worms that no one in the current financial industry wants opened.

Not necessarily true.  Some of the state laws I've read indicate that gambling anything of value is illegal online, which would most certainly include Bitcoins.