Wondering where your BFL Singles are?

[Inaba]

Here they are, being prepped to ship:



I stopped by the BFL offices the other day and wow, they've expanded a ton since I stopped in a few weeks ago.  I met a number of new hires as well, so it looks like they are gearing up for faster production.  The Minirig assembly line was full of Minirigs.  I was able to take the above picture of one of the areas they are assembling the singles... I tried to slip a few in my pockets, but my pockets were not big enough, sadly.  

I may try again and wear some cargo shorts.  I think maybe I could fit a six pack of Jalapenos in some parachute pants, too.

[1714860693]

1714860693

[Morblias]

Is that radio from the 90s?!

[enmaku]

Always cool to get an inside view. I'm not wondering where my single is though, I'm wondering why no one at BFL has been responding to any emails of any kind since the SC release

[BCbitcoin]

Where is this?

I guess the dustpan indicates that you are in their clean room?

[rjk]

I need that power strip arrangement at my workbench NAO.

[Paladin69]

Are you saying there are jalapenos in this picture?  Can u circle them...

I hate Where is Waldo.

[Inaba]

Haha no, no Jalapenos in the picture. I'm just planning ahead.

[mufa23]

Are you saying there are jalapenos in this picture?

This, with the force of a thousand suns!


I want those pictures!

[mufa23]

Haha no, no Jalapenos in the picture. I'm just planning ahead.

Have you seen what they look like? Describe them please.

[ice_chill]

Here they are, being prepped to ship:



I stopped by the BFL offices the other day and wow, they've expanded a ton since I stopped in a few weeks ago.  I met a number of new hires as well, so it looks like they are gearing up for faster production.  The Minirig assembly line was full of Minirigs.  I was able to take the above picture of one of the areas they are assembling the singles... I tried to slip a few in my pockets, but my pockets were not big enough, sadly.  

I may try again and wear some cargo shorts.  I think maybe I could fit a six pack of Jalapenos in some parachute pants, too.

I like sexy ladies assembling hardware for me 

[Blaztoize]

Love getting these inside type of pics! Also relevant as I should be receiving a single soon. Thanks for sharing!

[byte1]

Any mini Rig pictures ?

[mufa23]

I like sexy ladies assembling hardware for me 

Are you sure it's not a guy in a tank top, long hair, and ear piercings?

>cannotunsee

[Inaba]

I'll try to get some minirig pics next time I am there.  They were in the middle of a couple assemblies with rig parts hanging out having a good time, so I didn't take a pic.

[mufa23]

I think Gigavps started a thread a few days back with four of his Mini rigs. They looked very sexy.

[||bit]

Where is this?

I guess the dustpan indicates that you are in their clean room?

LOL. Yeah, found after the gowning room and high pressured air shower.

Good to see some photos of inside though. So, what we see in the photo is about one days shipments. Since they say, as of recent, that 50 are sent each day, then anyone waiting for Singles now doesn't actually know that those are photos of his/her Singles.

Thanks for being the forum's inside agent. Then again... how do we know YOU are not actually Sonny? da da dunnnn 
Now, a photo of the mysterious elusive Sonny (BTW: great name for a Don of a "family busineess") would be awesome.

Thanks again for posting the indie view.

||bit

[dreamwatcher]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

[rjk]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

[swissmate]

I like sexy ladies assembling hardware for me 

Are you sure it's not a guy in a tank top, long hair, and ear piercings?

>cannotunsee

greentexting in bitcointalk
all of my what

[dreamwatcher]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

The walking dead.

A major chunk of ESD damaged electronics are considered "walking dead". They will not fail immediately, but have severely shorted lifespans and/or other problems.

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

Have you seen the inside of any other electronic assembly area? They are normally spotless, with special flooring and stations. The employees wear grounding straps and usually some kind of anti-static outer garment. Exposed electronics are carried around in "clam shells" or at least anti-static bags.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

You are honestly OK with your equipment being assembled in the area pictured?

The only expensive part of proper ESD protocol would be changing the flooring, the rest are extremely cheap insurance to put out a top rate product.

[somenick]

Inaba
Are BFL going to place singles at or near
For those who are not from the U.S. ?

[Turbor]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

The walking dead.

A major chunk of ESD damaged electronics are considered "walking dead". They will not fail immediately, but have severely shorted lifespans and/or other problems.

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

Have you seen the inside of any other electronic assembly area? They are normally spotless, with special flooring and stations. The employees wear grounding straps and usually some kind of anti-static outer garment. Exposed electronics are carried around in "clam shells" or at least anti-static bags.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

You are honestly OK with your equipment being assembled in the area pictured?

The only expensive part of proper ESD protocol would be changing the flooring, the rest are extremely cheap insurance to put out a top rate product.

They sold me a quality product. Do I care what their shop looks like?  Not really but I do like the oak floor

[Fjordbit]

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Yeah, what the hell. I was expecting them to be at least ISO 9002!

/s

[dreamwatcher]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

The walking dead.

A major chunk of ESD damaged electronics are considered "walking dead". They will not fail immediately, but have severely shorted lifespans and/or other problems.

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

Have you seen the inside of any other electronic assembly area? They are normally spotless, with special flooring and stations. The employees wear grounding straps and usually some kind of anti-static outer garment. Exposed electronics are carried around in "clam shells" or at least anti-static bags.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

You are honestly OK with your equipment being assembled in the area pictured?

The only expensive part of proper ESD protocol would be changing the flooring, the rest are extremely cheap insurance to put out a top rate product.

They sold me a quality product. Do I care what their shop looks like?  Not really but I do like the oak floor

Oak floor, non conductive, perfect for building a static charge.

Good luck with taking the risk on receiving an ESD crippled product , you should care what the shop looks like, it is an indicator of the quality of the product.

I cannot believe anybody here with any experience with electronics assembly or design would not care about what they see here.

Seriously, does nobody here have any experience in this field?

Come on posters, somebody else here has to see the serious quality control problems here, it will not change unless you demand it changes.

Just because others here are willing to take whatever BFL hands them, does not mean that the rest of us cannot expect at least a BASIC level of ESD protocol when dealing with electronics. I am not even talking about a higher standard, just the basic standard used in the industry.

That being said, I am still hoping this is some kind of joke or that BFL will post stating that this is some kind of misunderstanding and what we are looking at is not an assembly area.
 

[SgtSpike]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

The walking dead.

A major chunk of ESD damaged electronics are considered "walking dead". They will not fail immediately, but have severely shorted lifespans and/or other problems.

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

Have you seen the inside of any other electronic assembly area? They are normally spotless, with special flooring and stations. The employees wear grounding straps and usually some kind of anti-static outer garment. Exposed electronics are carried around in "clam shells" or at least anti-static bags.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

You are honestly OK with your equipment being assembled in the area pictured?

The only expensive part of proper ESD protocol would be changing the flooring, the rest are extremely cheap insurance to put out a top rate product.

They sold me a quality product. Do I care what their shop looks like?  Not really but I do like the oak floor

Oak floor, non conductive, perfect for building a static charge.

Good luck with taking the risk on receiving an ESD crippled product , you should care what the shop looks like, it is an indicator of the quality of the product.

I cannot believe anybody here with any experience with electronics assembly or design would not care about what they see here.

Seriously, does nobody here have any experience in this field?

Come on posters, somebody else here has to see the serious quality control problems here, it will not change unless you demand it changes.

Just because others here are willing to take whatever BFL hands them, does not mean that the rest of us cannot expect at least a BASIC level of ESD protocol when dealing with electronics. I am not even talking about a higher standard, just the basic standard used in the industry.

That being said, I am still hoping this is some kind of joke or that BFL will post stating that this is some kind of misunderstanding and what we are looking at is not an assembly area.
 

Do you have a better alternative product?  No?  Ok, then, moving right along...

[dreamwatcher]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

The walking dead.

A major chunk of ESD damaged electronics are considered "walking dead". They will not fail immediately, but have severely shorted lifespans and/or other problems.

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

Have you seen the inside of any other electronic assembly area? They are normally spotless, with special flooring and stations. The employees wear grounding straps and usually some kind of anti-static outer garment. Exposed electronics are carried around in "clam shells" or at least anti-static bags.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

You are honestly OK with your equipment being assembled in the area pictured?

The only expensive part of proper ESD protocol would be changing the flooring, the rest are extremely cheap insurance to put out a top rate product.

They sold me a quality product. Do I care what their shop looks like?  Not really but I do like the oak floor

Oak floor, non conductive, perfect for building a static charge.

Good luck with taking the risk on receiving an ESD crippled product , you should care what the shop looks like, it is an indicator of the quality of the product.

I cannot believe anybody here with any experience with electronics assembly or design would not care about what they see here.

Seriously, does nobody here have any experience in this field?

Come on posters, somebody else here has to see the serious quality control problems here, it will not change unless you demand it changes.

Just because others here are willing to take whatever BFL hands them, does not mean that the rest of us cannot expect at least a BASIC level of ESD protocol when dealing with electronics. I am not even talking about a higher standard, just the basic standard used in the industry.

That being said, I am still hoping this is some kind of joke or that BFL will post stating that this is some kind of misunderstanding and what we are looking at is not an assembly area.
 

Do you have a better alternative product?  No?  Ok, then, moving right along...

WoW, that was mature.

So because there is only one vendor of a specialized product, you should just take what is handed to you?

Only one restaurant in town, so you should just eat whatever they hand you?

Why are you defending these practices? Do you have ownership or work for BFL?

Honestly, this is both baffling and intriguing. People handing over thousands of dollars not caring about the most BASIC industry protocols when it comes to electronic assembly.Simply accepting whatever is handed to them.

You have to be trolling. I cannot believe people as smart as I have seen on these forums accept this.

Again, I have nothing against BFL and I sincerely hope this is a misunderstanding. Perhaps this is a returns area, or other non-sensitive area.

[boonies4u]

If these are the conditions where they are going to be making the $149 Jallies, i'm fine with it. But given the large chunk of change they just got paid, I wouldn't be surprised if they set up better conditions.

Talking about assembly conditions, I'm not seeing a single open (as far as I can tell) BFL single.

[tgmarks]

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

Yeah, what the hell. I was expecting them to be at least ISO 9002!

/s

ISO?  who are you kidding.  these guys don't even have crap designed before they sell it. I bet they don't have written procedures for any of their assembly not to mention esd protection plans, etc.

[SgtSpike]

I seriously hope that they are not using a broom in a static sensitive environment.

If this truly is an assembly room, I now have serious reservations about BFL.

I do not see grounding straps used, the staff are not wearing anti-static outer garments and the flooring is hardly what should be used in electronic assembly. Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously???  

Maybe a QA center for units already assembled, and thus already static protected?

I hope this picture is a joke else everybody should be really careful about ordering from BFL and demand proper assembly conditions.

Also, failure rate currently unknown, presumed to be one single unit that ngzhang has dissected. If it works, who cares?

The walking dead.

A major chunk of ESD damaged electronics are considered "walking dead". They will not fail immediately, but have severely shorted lifespans and/or other problems.

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

Have you seen the inside of any other electronic assembly area? They are normally spotless, with special flooring and stations. The employees wear grounding straps and usually some kind of anti-static outer garment. Exposed electronics are carried around in "clam shells" or at least anti-static bags.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

You are honestly OK with your equipment being assembled in the area pictured?

The only expensive part of proper ESD protocol would be changing the flooring, the rest are extremely cheap insurance to put out a top rate product.

They sold me a quality product. Do I care what their shop looks like?  Not really but I do like the oak floor

Oak floor, non conductive, perfect for building a static charge.

Good luck with taking the risk on receiving an ESD crippled product , you should care what the shop looks like, it is an indicator of the quality of the product.

I cannot believe anybody here with any experience with electronics assembly or design would not care about what they see here.

Seriously, does nobody here have any experience in this field?

Come on posters, somebody else here has to see the serious quality control problems here, it will not change unless you demand it changes.

Just because others here are willing to take whatever BFL hands them, does not mean that the rest of us cannot expect at least a BASIC level of ESD protocol when dealing with electronics. I am not even talking about a higher standard, just the basic standard used in the industry.

That being said, I am still hoping this is some kind of joke or that BFL will post stating that this is some kind of misunderstanding and what we are looking at is not an assembly area.
 

Do you have a better alternative product?  No?  Ok, then, moving right along...

WoW, that was mature.

So because there is only one vendor of a specialized product, you should just take what is handed to you?

Only one restaurant in town, so you should just eat whatever they hand you?

Why are you defending these practices? Do you have ownership or work for BFL?

Honestly, this is both baffling and intriguing. People handing over thousands of dollars not caring about the most BASIC industry protocols when it comes to electronic assembly.Simply accepting whatever is handed to them.

You have to be trolling. I cannot believe people as smart as I have seen on these forums accept this.

Again, I have nothing against BFL and I sincerely hope this is a misunderstanding. Perhaps this is a returns area, or other non-sensitive area.

My point is, what are you going to do about it?  The only choice is to order or not order.  For me, I very much EXPECT their production line to look like that.  They are a company with exponential growth in a very short timeframe who hasn't had years of time and profits to reinvest into state of the art electronics manufacturing facilities.  And if I was them, I'm not even sure I'd want to make such an investment at this point, given the volatility of Bitcoin and potential upper limit of sales.  It doesn't make sense to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into a proper manufacturing facility when you make as little sales as they do (when compared with other electronics assembly lines).

That said, I definitely agree with you and see some areas where they can improve, but it's not going to stop me from buying from them.  If it breaks in less than 6 months, I'll send it back for replacement.  If it breaks in longer than 6 months, well, I only expected it to last 6 months anyway.

[A_CardeN]

What a low tech, trashy looking place.

[rjk]

What a low tech, trashy looking place.

Show us a pic of your spectacular workbench!

[A_CardeN]

What a low tech, trashy looking place.

Show us a pic of your spectacular workbench!

LOL good point man.  Very good point.

Not sure why I expected something like this ...

http://www.leedscomms.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/computer-server-room1.jpg

[LoupGaroux]

With a certain degree of specialized knowledge of building out these kinds of spaces (I designed NOC's for Charter Communications) this is a dismaying sight. It looks more like a Third World sweat shop than any kind of an electronics assembly facility. Dreamwatcher's comments are dead on, but as SgtSpike so accurately notes, this is the only vendor for this game in town. It would be far more desirable to see them take assembly seriously, and to match the tone of their marketing materials, but the reality is so often this sort of low-tech trashy kitsch.

Hopefully the windfall that mini-rigs represents to them will allow them to grow up as a production facility and and address process better.

[SgtSpike]

Hopefully the windfall that mini-rigs represents to them will allow them to grow up as a production facility and at address process better.

I agree with you there!

[dreamwatcher]

Check out the last photo for their MiniRig assembly area: http://www.butterflylabs.com/mini-rig-production-line/

Much better, I will give BFL the benefit of the doubt on the things that cannot be determined. (The flooring is conductive and not carpeting, wire shelves are grounded, assembler is using an ankle grounding strap and the work table is conductive or at least there is a ESD mat in place that cannot be seen).

I want to purchase some of their products myself, and quite honestly was disappointed with the picture in the OP. The assembly station in the MiniRig picture has brought back some faith. I was not expecting a multimillion dollar setup with Fuji placement machines, specialized clean room, air ionization....etc...etc., but some inexpensive grounding devices and an ESD protocol being followed.

As for my personal workstation, I use a ESD mat and a wrist grounding strap when handling open electronics. Hell, I would have even been happy with that in the OP picture.

I do wish BFL the best of luck, and hope sales of the new ASIC will allow them to prosper. With the prosperity, the investment in better production faculties would be prudent especially in terms of better ship times and possibly offering better warranties due to better production practices . Do not forget, they can always rent, they do not have to buy if they feel it is still a risky venture.

They may be the only game in town now, but they do have competitors, and they will not be the only game indefinitely. Now is the time to garner consumer good will and loyalty, it will make it much harder for the competition to take market share away when they are ready with a competing product.

[disclaimer201]

Made in USA!

ASICs supposedly cost millions in R&D and people are entrusting BFL with thousands of dollars for hardware that is assembled in a garage? Really?! I would be just a tiny bit worried that my unit is one out of 100 that fails after a few months because some cereal and cookie crumbles blocked ventilation. About the second picture...even a noob would find a suitable picture on the internetz for his web presentation.

[Turbor]

Lots of trash talk here. I guess most of the haters here never built something with their own hands. Stay away from BFL. If you think that any competitor does better, good luck.

[MXRider]

Dreamwatcher's points are valid! They should follow ESD protocol. Fact is that right now they are market leader and there are no competition in ASIC area. They can do what they want. I don't like it either but are there any other (good) options? Buy nothing, stop mining?

[ElectricMucus]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

[Blaztoize]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

I don't say anything. I merely offer you a facial expression that suggests you've gone insane.

[crazyates]

Does this explain why some Singles run the 896 firmware at 34C, while others can't run anything in the 800s without throttling?

[Inaba]

I have debated on whether or not to respond to the criticism in this thread, because I know it will be met with lots of FUD, BS, armchair EE's and just plain trolls.

I've elected not to respond up until now, and I'm probably not going to engage much.  But here's the thing:

ESD is a specter that has haunted the electronics industry since the 80's (well, earlier than that, but really came into it's own starting in the 80's).  Early electronics were definitely sensitive to ESD and could be damaged/destroyed by just breathing on them wrong.  In the past 30 years, advances in material and design have rendered ESD for consumer electronics a virtual non-issue.  I'm sure some anecdotal wiseass will pop up and say "Well gosh, my friends brother blew out his iPod by putting it in a Van der Graaf generator!"

That's great, seriously... it is.  I'm glad you are the one in a million person who's experienced an issue with ESD.  Meanwhile, the rest of the nation and the rest of the world somehow manages to handle, operate and abuse billions of pieces of electronic parts per day without blowing out their device.  Pull that motherboard out of your computer and run across the carpet in a dry environment, now go put it back in your computer... it fires right back up! WHOA!

That graphics card?  Yeah, pull it out, rub it on your hair while patting a balloon.  Now go put it back in, WHOA IT WORKS!  

Your iPod?  Take it apart, rub the circuit board on your fuzzy nuts, how put it back in... hey, it still functions!  Crazy!!!!

The fact of the matter is, ESD for consumer electronics has been a non-existent thread for at least a decade if not two.  It's a hold out from 30 years ago when electronics were far, far more fragile and sensitive to ESD.  Now let's discuss the BFL singles for a minute... go grab your single, take it apart (Ok, you might void your warranty here, so you're on your own) and fondle the board lovingly.  Now put it back together... hey it still works!

Want to live dangerously?  Put 12v through the USB port on your single... still works.  

Anyway... ESD, while still a problem in some situations, for most consumer electronics is a boogy man and it's time to grow up and stop being afraid of monsters.

[Dargo]

Well, maybe BFL would be open to making some changes for better ESD protection. If, as has been pointed out, everything but the flooring is cheap to implement, they might go for it. At the very least ESD mats and ground straps would be reasonable to ask for. Do we have a good liaison (Inaba?) who can broach this topic with them? The first thing to find out is if they already have changes planned.  

[Inaba]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

[dreamwatcher]

Does this explain why some Singles run the 896 firmware at 34C, while others can't run anything in the 800s without throttling?

I would not go so far as to say that anybody has received a ESD damaged device from BFL. We have yet to get (more than likely we will not) any verification that this is actually an assembly area at BFL.I still have a hard time believing a company that has advanced to the level of designing ASIC, would be so ignorant of basic ESD protocol.

Also,almost any kind of IC of sufficient complexity (FPGA definitely qualify), go through a "binning" process.

One is only guaranteed what the IC specification states, anything over that is gravy. The binning process tests the IC's and separates them into various categories determined by the buyer (internal or external). So, people that have units that only run throttled, probably have chips that bin out at specification, while others my receive chips that binned out higher and thus do not need throttling. Weather or not BFL actually bins out anything other than meets/fails specification, I do not know, but I suspect is probably true. They might not even have the details on the binning process depending on the vendor they are buying from and may simply test completed units to make sure they meet a minimum specification.

CPU's are a classic example, many of the different models are exactly the same except the ones that "binned" out higher are sold as a higher model chip. The opposite is also true, AMD is famous for this. 3 core chips are the 4 core chips with one of the cores disabled, normally this would be because the disabled core failed the binning process.Of course if demand is high enough, AMD will disable perfectly good cores to meet demand for the 3 core model. Many people have gotten a great deal by activating the fourth core and finding it to run just fine.

I have a feeling that is what the "jalapenos" are going to be, ASIC that are partially deactivated due to a flaw in part of the chip.Not necessarily a bad thing, it gives BFL a chance to make some money back on those chips and gives customers that do not want/have thousands to spend a perfectly viable option. Purely speculation on my part, but it is an industry practice.

[ElectricMucus]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

[crazyates]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

It's well known that Inaba lives and works in the same town as BFL, and visits them frequently.

[ElectricMucus]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

It's well known that Inaba lives and works in the same town as BFL, and visits them frequently.

It is well known Satoshi is Japanese.

[yjacket]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

It's well known that Inaba lives and works in the same town as BFL, and visits them frequently.

How fucking dumb are you?

Edit: This was meant for ElectricMucus

[Inaba]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

I will take that bet.  Please let me know how much you want to bet, I will cover any bet you care to name.

So... put your money where your mouth is before further sounding like an idiot.  I propose we go with 1000 BTC to start, what say you?  We can pick a neutral escrow agent that we both agree upon.  If you want to bet more, just name your amount and I'm in.

[crazyates]

Edit: This was meant for ElectricMucus

Haha I was like wtf?!

[dreamwatcher]

I have debated on whether or not to respond to the criticism in this thread, because I know it will be met with lots of FUD, BS, armchair EE's and just plain trolls.

I've elected not to respond up until now, and I'm probably not going to engage much.  But here's the thing:

ESD is a specter that has haunted the electronics industry since the 80's (well, earlier than that, but really came into it's own starting in the 80's).  Early electronics were definitely sensitive to ESD and could be damaged/destroyed by just breathing on them wrong.  In the past 30 years, advances in material and design have rendered ESD for consumer electronics a virtual non-issue.  I'm sure some anecdotal wiseass will pop up and say "Well gosh, my friends brother blew out his iPod by putting it in a Van der Graaf generator!"

That's great, seriously... it is.  I'm glad you are the one in a million person who's experienced an issue with ESD.  Meanwhile, the rest of the nation and the rest of the world somehow manages to handle, operate and abuse billions of pieces of electronic parts per day without blowing out their device.  Pull that motherboard out of your computer and run across the carpet in a dry environment, now go put it back in your computer... it fires right back up! WHOA!

That graphics card?  Yeah, pull it out, rub it on your hair while patting a balloon.  Now go put it back in, WHOA IT WORKS!  

Your iPod?  Take it apart, rub the circuit board on your fuzzy nuts, how put it back in... hey, it still functions!  Crazy!!!!

The fact of the matter is, ESD for consumer electronics has been a non-existent thread for at least a decade if not two.  It's a hold out from 30 years ago when electronics were far, far more fragile and sensitive to ESD.  Now let's discuss the BFL singles for a minute... go grab your single, take it apart (Ok, you might void your warranty here, so you're on your own) and fondle the board lovingly.  Now put it back together... hey it still works!

Want to live dangerously?  Put 12v through the USB port on your single... still works.  

Anyway... ESD, while still a problem in some situations, for most consumer electronics is a boogy man and it's time to grow up and stop being afraid of monsters.

Don't do this Inaba, I have nothing but respect for you. But to claim that ESD is a non-issue is just...

It can take less than 50v to blow or severely weaken a transistor junction. A person cannot generally "feel" a ESD until it is around 3000v. Just because one can do the balloon dance with a retail level GPU card and have it still work, does not mean one has not weakened any of the internal components of the IC's.

Most ESD failures are not immediate and can show up as shortened lifespan or intermittent issues until complete failure.

Yes, IC's these days are designed with safeguards to try and protect the internal circuitry, but they are by no means foolproof. If you were to visit other electronics assembly plants, you would see that ESD protocols are taken very seriously. It is not a "boogeyman", it is a fact of life.


Calling me an "armchair" EE or troll?? Come on Inaba, you are above that. I showed a genuine concern, about what appears to be a problem with normal industry protocol.

I really do not know what else to say, I really have nothing else to add to the thread. I have stated what I felt needed to be said and now sit disappointed.

16 years as an EE, working in and out of the electronics industry, I have seen many crazy things. But after this post I am left speechless.

[LoupGaroux]

ESD aside... having that coffee cup poised for a suicidal plunge into the murky inner world of someone's $29,000 investment doesn't really seem like a best practice. Just guessing here, but while I can channel lightning through my USB ports (cool! I learned something today...) and power my iPhone with St. Elmo's fire, having 12 ounces of slightly acidic, sticky, syrupy hot liquid suddenly meet with a circuit board, spinning fans and a non-grounded Midwestern hottie seems like a bad idea. And I'm going to get enough dog fur, dust mites and stray fasteners into the guts of my hardware without them arriving loaded up already. There are levels of "Clean" that should be at least a minimum standard, and that damn coffee cup should be in a break room.

[Inaba]

I have debated on whether or not to respond to the criticism in this thread, because I know it will be met with lots of FUD, BS, armchair EE's and just plain trolls.

I've elected not to respond up until now, and I'm probably not going to engage much.  But here's the thing:

ESD is a specter that has haunted the electronics industry since the 80's (well, earlier than that, but really came into it's own starting in the 80's).  Early electronics were definitely sensitive to ESD and could be damaged/destroyed by just breathing on them wrong.  In the past 30 years, advances in material and design have rendered ESD for consumer electronics a virtual non-issue.  I'm sure some anecdotal wiseass will pop up and say "Well gosh, my friends brother blew out his iPod by putting it in a Van der Graaf generator!"

That's great, seriously... it is.  I'm glad you are the one in a million person who's experienced an issue with ESD.  Meanwhile, the rest of the nation and the rest of the world somehow manages to handle, operate and abuse billions of pieces of electronic parts per day without blowing out their device.  Pull that motherboard out of your computer and run across the carpet in a dry environment, now go put it back in your computer... it fires right back up! WHOA!

That graphics card?  Yeah, pull it out, rub it on your hair while patting a balloon.  Now go put it back in, WHOA IT WORKS! 

Your iPod?  Take it apart, rub the circuit board on your fuzzy nuts, how put it back in... hey, it still functions!  Crazy!!!!

The fact of the matter is, ESD for consumer electronics has been a non-existent thread for at least a decade if not two.  It's a hold out from 30 years ago when electronics were far, far more fragile and sensitive to ESD.  Now let's discuss the BFL singles for a minute... go grab your single, take it apart (Ok, you might void your warranty here, so you're on your own) and fondle the board lovingly.  Now put it back together... hey it still works!

Want to live dangerously?  Put 12v through the USB port on your single... still works. 

Anyway... ESD, while still a problem in some situations, for most consumer electronics is a boogy man and it's time to grow up and stop being afraid of monsters.

Don't do this Inaba, I have nothing but respect for you. But to claim that ESD is a non-issue is just...

It can take less than 50v to blow or severely weaken a transistor junction. A person cannot generally "feel" a ESD until it is around 3000v. Just because one can do the balloon dance with a retail level GPU card and have it still work, does not mean one has not weakened any of the internal components of the IC's.

Most ESD failures are not immediate and can show up as shortened lifespan or intermittent issues until complete failure.

Yes, IC's these days are designed with safeguards to try and protect the internal circuitry, but they are by no means foolproof. If you were to visit other electronics assembly plants, you would see that ESD protocols are taken very seriously. It is not a "boogeyman", it is a fact of life.


Calling me an "armchair" EE or troll?? Come on Inaba, you are above that. I showed a genuine concern, about what appears to be a problem with normal industry protocol.

I really do not know what else to say, I really have nothing else to add to the thread. I have stated what I felt needed to be said and now sit disappointed.

16 years as an EE, working in and out of the electronics industry, I have seen many crazy things. But after this post I am left speechless.

It wasn't directed specifically at you, just in general. 

I am not saying ESD is not a concern under certain conditions, with certain electronics and at certain places.  I am saying modern consumer electronics are far more robust than 1980's era electronics. 

Now lets address the weakened transistor junctions on BFL singles:  If it's weakened to the point of a shorten life span, it with either A) fail nearly immediately or within the first 36 - 48 hours of burn in.  or B) Fail so far down the road that the device has long since become useless.  I'm not really up for getting into a debate about this.  ESD is a boogy man for modern consumer grade electronics, plain and simple... the fact that there are billions of electronic devices out there, all operating fine on a day to day basis is proof enough of this assertion.  Trying to provide any other evidence to the contrary on my part pales in comparison to the real world, day to day activities of millions of people, so I won't even try. 

Yes, IC's these days are designed with safeguards to try and protect the internal circuitry, but they are by no means foolproof. If you were to visit other electronics assembly plants, you would see that ESD protocols are taken very seriously. It is not a "boogeyman", it is a fact of life.

I can give you the gamut of electronic assembly plants that go from the clean room Intel plants that cost millions or billions to build to some dude making crap out of his garage, so that doesn't really work as an example.  Examples covering the entire spectrum of assembly can be picked a dime a dozen. 

But lets examine the ESD protocols at assembly plants very briefly:  Those that have extended precautions and you see the clean rooms, etc... what do they do?  They work on component level systems and subsystems.  Those things require more ESD awareness than a fully assembled unit or even a fully P&P board with everything already soldered on and packaged to go.  While I fully believe you can dig up examples of extensive ESD preparedness at a fully assembled board manufacturing plant, they are going to be few and far between.  When you're the schmuck on the Dell assembly line putting together the machines, do you think they have elaborate ESD precautions?  Why is that... because  the fully assembled boards are not nearly as ESD sensitive as the 1980's would have you believe. 

Having begum my electronics career in the 1980's, the full fear of god against ESD is still with me; I habitually touch grounded items before doing anything with electronics. I have been trying to break myself of that irrational fear for years, but it's pretty damned ingrained and habitual... however, the last time I killed a device through ESD was somewhere around 1987.  It was a Checkmate memory board for an Apple ][gs and I killed a couple of the DIP chips I was trying to put in there.  Beyond that, even grounding myself out through numerous modern PCBs, I have yet to see a dead/damaged board in recent memory.  I haven't even HEARD of anyone legitimately damaging a board.

Modern boards are also surprisingly resilient when it comes to liquid, although I am certainly not denying the dangers of liquid around electronics, but having water cooled my machines for around a decade now, I've had my share of leaks.  I have yet to kill a board with liquid either... even ran a SoundBlaster Audigy for 2 years after it was nearly submerged in water while turned on... had a ton of corrosion all over the place, but it happily went about it's merry way until I upgraded to a PCI-e SB. 

So yeah, I'm not taking anything away from you or devaluing your work or career, I am just saying that the modern terror of ESD and electronics damage is overblown to the extreme and a relic of an era where it was a real issue.

[2112]

Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

I just wanted to chime in with some wisdom from the former CEO of my company who actually had a long experience managing assembly lines in the electronic industry.

The neatnik streak as displayed by dreamwatcher, especially the anti-ESD propaganda, is just a cover for the real management issues:

1) theft, both occasional and organized.
2) sabotage, especially when temporary labor force is employed.
3) anti-union or other political/labor issues, e.g. drug distribution amongst the people doing monotone work.
4) need for managerial control of positive factors: tracking of the good workers for possible promotion.
5) need for managerial control of negative factors: locating and investigating of workplace accidents and incidents.
6) saleability, state of being visibly spotless, mostly in case of consumer goods.
7) ESD is nowadays mostly a human factor, not a technical precaution. When people are repeatedly zapped their productivity goes down and it increases the chance of accidents.

Really, please think a bit about the history of the USA. Messrs. Hewlett and Packard probably should consider themselves lucky that nobody was there in their garage to make a snapshot of the sweat on their backs as they assembled the first laboratory oscillator that they sold to Walt Disney.

[BFL]

FYI - this is a non debate.  Ours is an ESD protected environment.  I would agree with Inaba in terms of scale of concern, but it's not an issue either way.  Open board work is done with ESD Matts & pretty blue wrist straps.   (I feel icky for having stepped in to answer this at all)

[MrTeal]

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but that Minirig assembly area really does look like a plain wood table sitting on top of carpet.

As to ESD, in consumer gear it isn't much of a problem. Manufacturer's work hard to protect their devices, and a lot of the reason why it's so much less of an issue now is the almost fanatical control that exists in modern electronics assembly line. That being said, handling an iPod or graphics card is entirely different than handling unmounted individual components. Many small components are still very susceptible to ESD, and if their facility where they populate the PCBs (assuming they do it themselves) looks anything like their MR assembly area I would be very worried about it. SD tile isn't THAT expensive, but even a proper smock, wrist strap and ESD table mat would be a great start. This is an issue of will as opposed to cost, they could probably outfit all the tables and their production employees for the cost of one Single.

[bitcoindaddy]

FYI - this is a non debate.  Ours is an ESD protected environment.  I would agree with Inaba in terms of scale of concern, but it's not an issue either way.  Open board work is done with ESD Matts & pretty blue wrist straps.   (I feel icky for having stepped in to answer this at all)

Step 2 - forbid any photography by visitors because it might result in bad publicity.

[bulanula]

FYI - this is a non debate.  Ours is an ESD protected environment.  I would agree with Inaba in terms of scale of concern, but it's not an issue either way.  Open board work is done with ESD Matts & pretty blue wrist straps.   (I feel icky for having stepped in to answer this at all)

Step 2 - forbid any photography by visitors because it might result in bad publicity.

Yes, because the last thing from this company is LESS transparency . Right ...

You are a genius !

[boonies4u]

FYI - this is a non debate.  Ours is an ESD protected environment.  I would agree with Inaba in terms of scale of concern, but it's not an issue either way.  Open board work is done with ESD Matts & pretty blue wrist straps.   (I feel icky for having stepped in to answer this at all)

Step 2 - forbid any photography by visitors because it might result in bad publicity.

I read that as pornography. Imagine someone coming in with a camera and taking a picture of one of your people "browsing" in his/her office. Remember kids, you do different things at work when you are bored.

I wonder what would be worse, that or Chinese Knock-Off Guitar Plant quality in terms of pr.

[ElectricMucus]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

I will take that bet.  Please let me know how much you want to bet, I will cover any bet you care to name.

So... put your money where your mouth is before further sounding like an idiot.  I propose we go with 1000 BTC to start, what say you?  We can pick a neutral escrow agent that we both agree upon.  If you want to bet more, just name your amount and I'm in.

Don't be ridiculous. If I had 1000 BTC I would have something better to do with them.
To bad I have to add that as a disclaimer as of every post I make.

From my casual observation you are overly concerned for a independent party about bystander comments like mine, again just a thought. Move on dude, it's just my humble opinion.

PS: LOL Internet.

[boonies4u]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

I will take that bet.  Please let me know how much you want to bet, I will cover any bet you care to name.

So... put your money where your mouth is before further sounding like an idiot.  I propose we go with 1000 BTC to start, what say you?  We can pick a neutral escrow agent that we both agree upon.  If you want to bet more, just name your amount and I'm in.

Don't be ridiculous. If I had 1000 BTC I would have something better to do with them.
To bad I have to add that as a disclaimer as of every post I make.

From my casual observation you are overly concerned for a independent party about bystander comments like mine, again just a thought. Move on dude, it's just my humble opinion.

PS: LOL Internet.

Precisely, welcome to the internet.

Funny story, I once rested my elbow on my tower as I was disconnecting the PSU from the power strip. It sent a charge through my arm, which abruptly stopped at my elbow.
In the end, everything went better than expect.

[abeaulieu]

Here they are, being prepped to ship:



I stopped by the BFL offices the other day and wow, they've expanded a ton since I stopped in a few weeks ago.  I met a number of new hires as well, so it looks like they are gearing up for faster production.  The Minirig assembly line was full of Minirigs.  I was able to take the above picture of one of the areas they are assembling the singles... I tried to slip a few in my pockets, but my pockets were not big enough, sadly.  

I may try again and wear some cargo shorts.  I think maybe I could fit a six pack of Jalapenos in some parachute pants, too.

RE: ESD Straps... Look at the outlet closest to the 90's radio. There is some sort of 2 prong device and then what appears to be an ESD strap lead plugged into the ground terminal. Just sayin' 

[SgtSpike]

Here they are, being prepped to ship:



I stopped by the BFL offices the other day and wow, they've expanded a ton since I stopped in a few weeks ago.  I met a number of new hires as well, so it looks like they are gearing up for faster production.  The Minirig assembly line was full of Minirigs.  I was able to take the above picture of one of the areas they are assembling the singles... I tried to slip a few in my pockets, but my pockets were not big enough, sadly.  

I may try again and wear some cargo shorts.  I think maybe I could fit a six pack of Jalapenos in some parachute pants, too.

RE: ESD Straps... Look at the outlet closest to the 90's radio. There is some sort of 2 prong device and then what appears to be an ESD strap lead plugged into the ground terminal. Just sayin' 

Also, you can see some sort of surface with rounded corners on top of the workbench.  Look next to her left elbow.  Maybe that's the ESD mat, and the lead from the ground terminal is grounding it?

[Raoul Duke]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

[SgtSpike]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

Haha, same.  I just set it on my kitchen table and have at it.  :p

[crazyates]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

[Raoul Duke]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them

[dreamwatcher]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them

Absolutely amazing, do they not teach basic physics in school anymore?

So I guess your right, I said everything has a 100% immediate failure rate without ESD protection. That whole walking wounded thing is just an urban myth I guess, and all the research and numbers over the years have been disproved by you!!!!!

Your experience proves an entire industry wrong, hell you even proved NASA wrong.

http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/562/ESD_PreventionGSFCHWFrontpage.htm

Better get in contact with them right away and let them know that they do not have to worry about ESD.

Maybe you should publish a paper, I am sure the entire industry would like to know that they can save all kinds of money by not worrying about ESD anymore. YaY!!!

So I admit to the form, that the anecdotal evidence presented in this thread proves ESD is just a hoax, all the research,mathematics and electron microscope studies of failures are just total BS to sell grounding straps.

I have been bested, enjoy your "victory".

[yjacket]

Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?

If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

I will take that bet.  Please let me know how much you want to bet, I will cover any bet you care to name.

So... put your money where your mouth is before further sounding like an idiot.  I propose we go with 1000 BTC to start, what say you?  We can pick a neutral escrow agent that we both agree upon.  If you want to bet more, just name your amount and I'm in.

Don't be ridiculous. If I had 1000 BTC I would have something better to do with them.
To bad I have to add that as a disclaimer as of every post I make.

From my casual observation you are overly concerned for a independent party about bystander comments like mine, again just a thought. Move on dude, it's just my humble opinion.

PS: LOL Internet.

So you are a fucking retard.

[Raoul Duke]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them

Absolutely amazing, do they not teach basic physics in school anymore?

So I guess your right, I said everything has a 100% immediate failure rate without ESD protection. That whole walking wounded thing is just an urban myth I guess, and all the research and numbers over the years have been disproved by you!!!!!

Your experience proves an entire industry wrong, hell you even proved NASA wrong.

http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/562/ESD_PreventionGSFCHWFrontpage.htm

Better get in contact with them right away and let them know that they do not have to worry about ESD.

Maybe you should publish a paper, I am sure the entire industry would like to know that they can save all kinds of money by not worrying about ESD anymore. YaY!!!

So I admit to the form, that the anecdotal evidence presented in this thread proves ESD is just a hoax, all the research,mathematics and electron microscope studies of failures are just total BS to sell grounding straps.

I have been bested, enjoy your "victory".

Why didn't you reply to the following post?

Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously??? 

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

I just wanted to chime in with some wisdom from the former CEO of my company who actually had a long experience managing assembly lines in the electronic industry.

The neatnik streak as displayed by dreamwatcher, especially the anti-ESD propaganda, is just a cover for the real management issues:

1) theft, both occasional and organized.
2) sabotage, especially when temporary labor force is employed.
3) anti-union or other political/labor issues, e.g. drug distribution amongst the people doing monotone work.
4) need for managerial control of positive factors: tracking of the good workers for possible promotion.
5) need for managerial control of negative factors: locating and investigating of workplace accidents and incidents.
6) saleability, state of being visibly spotless, mostly in case of consumer goods.
7) ESD is nowadays mostly a human factor, not a technical precaution. When people are repeatedly zapped their productivity goes down and it increases the chance of accidents.

Really, please think a bit about the history of the USA. Messrs. Hewlett and Packard probably should consider themselves lucky that nobody was there in their garage to make a snapshot of the sweat on their backs as they assembled the first laboratory oscillator that they sold to Walt Disney.

No arguments?

[dreamwatcher]

Why didn't you reply to the following post?

Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously???  

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.

I just wanted to chime in with some wisdom from the former CEO of my company who actually had a long experience managing assembly lines in the electronic industry.

The neatnik streak as displayed by dreamwatcher, especially the anti-ESD propaganda, is just a cover for the real management issues:

1) theft, both occasional and organized.
2) sabotage, especially when temporary labor force is employed.
3) anti-union or other political/labor issues, e.g. drug distribution amongst the people doing monotone work.
4) need for managerial control of positive factors: tracking of the good workers for possible promotion.
5) need for managerial control of negative factors: locating and investigating of workplace accidents and incidents.
6) saleability, state of being visibly spotless, mostly in case of consumer goods.
7) ESD is nowadays mostly a human factor, not a technical precaution. When people are repeatedly zapped their productivity goes down and it increases the chance of accidents.

Really, please think a bit about the history of the USA. Messrs. Hewlett and Packard probably should consider themselves lucky that nobody was there in their garage to make a snapshot of the sweat on their backs as they assembled the first laboratory oscillator that they sold to Walt Disney.



No arguments?

I had more sarky remarks, but this has turned into a worthless exercise in futility.
I am done with this thread, nothing I will say will convince you or others, and nothing is going to change my views. It appears a large chunk of my fellow engineers are not going to post one way or another. Perhaps they were much smarter than I and realized the futility of continuing the discourse.
As for the above poster, second hand information that if you really read closely does not make a whole lot of sense in what ESD protocol is, just look at #7, Really??? You cannot be that gullible.

Perhaps the most telling

FYI - this is a non debate.  Ours is an ESD protected environment.  I would agree with Inaba in terms of scale of concern, but it's not an issue either way.  Open board work is done with ESD Matts & pretty blue wrist straps.   (I feel icky for having stepped in to answer this at all)

Do I really need to comment? It makes one of BFL's reps feel "icky" to answer a simple protocol question.

It has been an experience to say the least, and  I thought about making copies of this thread to show to my associates and in the fall to my professors. Instead I think I will let it die . People will read it before it falls off the front page and hopefully take something from it one way or the other.

More than likely i will be buying one of BFL products, I really never wanted the thread to turn out the way it did, but somehow we got here. My intention was never to slam BFL, just express a concern and get a proper answer which I was sure BFL had.

Well, good luck to you all and to BFL labs, see you around the forums.

[Inaba]

So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them

Absolutely amazing, do they not teach basic physics in school anymore?

So I guess your right, I said everything has a 100% immediate failure rate without ESD protection. That whole walking wounded thing is just an urban myth I guess, and all the research and numbers over the years have been disproved by you!!!!!

Your experience proves an entire industry wrong, hell you even proved NASA wrong.

http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/562/ESD_PreventionGSFCHWFrontpage.htm

Better get in contact with them right away and let them know that they do not have to worry about ESD.

Maybe you should publish a paper, I am sure the entire industry would like to know that they can save all kinds of money by not worrying about ESD anymore. YaY!!!

So I admit to the form, that the anecdotal evidence presented in this thread proves ESD is just a hoax, all the research,mathematics and electron microscope studies of failures are just total BS to sell grounding straps.

I have been bested, enjoy your "victory".

Just got two things to say to this, since it's a pointless debate.  Billions of consumer products prove the point, so it's not use arguing.

1. GFSC hardware is mostly considered mission critical, I would take precautions regardless of the chance in a mission critical application.  Comparing bitcoin mining by CONSUMERS to mission critical multibillion dollar industries where a failed system can result in millions or billions of dollars lost in a firey explosion is perfectly normal.  Yes, right.  Got it.

2.  The ESD boogey man is alive an well in every industry.  The grey beards are just as ingrained if not more so than myself and it's an almost impossible habit to break.  That said, please provide ANY statistics to back up that CONSUMER grade products have a failure rate that has been attributed to static discharge in any capacity beyond the norm.  I can save you time: you can't.  There are no abnormal failure rates due to ESD on consumer grade products. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, including the life expectancy of consumer products that is measured in months or a scant few years, not decades.

[crazyates]

I'm pretty sure I saw a video online of a HP exec demoing their hardware testing facility. They were repeatedly zapping their laptops with a 75,000V gun.

[Inspector 2211]

I'm pretty sure I saw a video online of a HP exec demoing their hardware testing facility. They were repeatedly zapping their laptops with a 75,000V gun.

I find that very hard to believe.
I tested some hardware myself and the existing standards demand 10000 V or 12000 V, I forget which one.
10000 V *roughly* corresponds to a 10 mm long spark.
75000 V would thus correspond to about 3 inches.
That means, even light pipes of 1 inch length would be insufficient for preventing a spark from entering the circuit via a simple indicator LED.
For military equipment, maybe they test to more then 10 KV.
For consumer equipment, no way.

[nave]

ESD aside... having that coffee cup poised for a suicidal plunge into the murky inner world of someone's $29,000 investment doesn't really seem like a best practice. Just guessing here, but while I can channel lightning through my USB ports (cool! I learned something today...) and power my iPhone with St. Elmo's fire, having 12 ounces of slightly acidic, sticky, syrupy hot liquid suddenly meet with a circuit board, spinning fans and a non-grounded Midwestern hottie seems like a bad idea. And I'm going to get enough dog fur, dust mites and stray fasteners into the guts of my hardware without them arriving loaded up already. There are levels of "Clean" that should be at least a minimum standard, and that damn coffee cup should be in a break room.

Come on, that coffee cup is serious ASIC testing equipment! How else are they going to assure people that the Jalapeno's are capable of warming customer's coffee as advertised? I know I want to make sure BFL tests all their equipment make sure they meet their announced specs, having cold coffee would be completely unacceptable and would make me lose all faith in BFL!

[TechCF]

Thanks a lot for the update! I am hoping my unit ships within the next weeks. Shops looks great, nothing to complain about. These kinds of updates are the ones that get me closer to buying a single SC.

[kentrolla]

fwiw, dreamwatcher is right to be concerned about ESD protocol. ESD is not a "boogeyman."
I fried my HDD 2 years ago due to ESD. 

[crazyates]

I'm pretty sure I saw a video online of a HP exec demoing their hardware testing facility. They were repeatedly zapping their laptops with a 75,000V gun.

I find that very hard to believe.
I tested some hardware myself and the existing standards demand 10000 V or 12000 V, I forget which one.
10000 V *roughly* corresponds to a 10 mm long spark.
75000 V would thus correspond to about 3 inches.
That means, even light pipes of 1 inch length would be insufficient for preventing a spark from entering the circuit via a simple indicator LED.
For military equipment, maybe they test to more then 10 KV.
For consumer equipment, no way.

Ya I can't find the original article I read months ago, but this one from Giz says they test up to 15,000 V.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/05/this-man-electrocutes-laptops-for-a-living/

[BR0KK]

Fried seeral mem Sticks  with esd .... (or at leasti think so cause i can Not Test for it)

[seriouscoin]

fwiw, dreamwatcher is right to be concerned about ESD protocol. ESD is not a "boogeyman."
I fried my HDD 2 years ago due to ESD. 

But but..... inaba doesnt know anyone has killed a device due to ESD...

That fcktard gotta know how to use sample size.

[Coinoisseur]

Oh boy, "my hardware is fine so ESD is a myth". I bet if someone told the Romans about the dangers of lead plenty of them would make "bogeyman" like mocking statements.

ESD damage most often isn't seen, isn't felt, and may not outright kill a device while still damaging it.

*No dog in the fight in relation to BFL, just annoying to see ESD mocked. Perhaps one of these people should deliver their font of wisdom to defense contractors and medical device makers.

[Inaba]

Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.

[Raoul Duke]

Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.

That's your fault. It was you who started the thread

[seriouscoin]

Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.

Say the retard that claims ESD = bogeyman. GTFO idiot.

[Coinoisseur]

Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.

Say the retard that claims ESD = bogeyman. GTFO idiot.

Exactly what got me to post.

@Inaba: So motherboard manufacturers are just being silly protecting from ESD as well? Is my $50 budget board rated for mission critical situations, can't find that in the manual. Why would any company want to skip out on some simple to implement steps to offset a risk?

I'm not implying that someone has to roll out an ESD mat to add some RAM, but touching a grounded object before proceeding is a really good idea.

[paraipan]

[dreamwatcher]

******Lets end this debate now*****

I do appreciate those coming out to defend my position, however I have lost the debate due to the inability for me to provide the reasonable evidence Inaba has asked for.

2.  The ESD boogey man is alive an well in every industry.  The grey beards are just as ingrained if not more so than myself and it's an almost impossible habit to break.  That said, please provide ANY statistics to back up that CONSUMER grade products have a failure rate that has been attributed to static discharge in any capacity beyond the norm.  I can save you time: you can't.  There are no abnormal failure rates due to ESD on consumer grade products. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, including the life expectancy of consumer products that is measured in months or a scant few years, not decades.

Inaba has asked that I provide evidence in the form of reports on consumer level ESD failures. In terms of the rules of debate, that is a perfectly reasonable request.
However, it would be nearly impossible for me to provide such reports for a couple of reasons:

1.   No private business is ever going to publicly publish internal QA reports.

2.   Detecting ESD failure is expensive. Normally involves equipment on the level of an electron microscope to see. It is not cost effective for electronic assembly businesses to try and detect such failures. If an item is returned or found defective at the plant, at most technicians will identify the failed part(s) and replace them.

3.   Reports on plant QA or returns are focused on finding components that fail consistently, at which point they will take it up with the vendor. After that, it becomes a gray area of politics and economic leverage as to whether or not the vendor will spend time diagnosing the issue or just blame it on the assembly plant procedure or design of the final product. Even if the vendor does check for ESD, there is no way for john Q public to get that information unless it is volunteered, and it is not hard to see how often that would happen (never).

Sort of corporate espionage or a sufficient sample size of businesses volunteers the information, even if such information existed; I have no way of providing the requested evidence.

So in terms of this specific debate about ESD and consumer level electronics, I have to concede the debate to inaba , as I cannot provide the reasonable evidence requested for the above reasons.

This thread was about showing that singles existed and were being manufactured.

This whole argument has gotten out of control, and the thread needs to return to its original purpose.