I'm so tired of seeing the complaint on block confirmation times. Here's why.

[colinistheman]

I'm so tired of seeing this complaint on block times.

If you are one of the complainers, then here's an experiment I want you to perform and then explain to me how it is possible:

Transfer some bitcoin to your blockchain.info wallet and watch/listen for how long it takes to get there. That's right-- It takes about 5 seconds until you hear the *Beep*. Now think for a second, how did they do that? If they aren't waiting for the entire 10 minute block confirmation time, then how do they know money was sent?

Any merchant can use this method to see a transaction propagating through a majority of the nodes! This whole "10 minute" thing is given way too much importance because it doesn't matter for 99% of transactions. It's just something that people can focus on to complain about because they don't understand this. You can see any transaction on the network nearly instantly.

So the problem must be with the wallet you are using if you can't see an instantaneous transaction. So, rather than complaining about 10 minutes confirmation time which frankly doesn't matter in 99% of situations, then the solution is to get your wallet to support the same technology that blockchain.info is using to SHOW the transaction occurring in near-realtime. Not to complain about 10 minute block times.

And you could argue that double-spends could make this method irrelevant, but if you are THAT concerned for the particular transaction, then go ahead and wait for the full confirmation. But that level of verification is a very small % of the time. Not many people want to steal a $5 cup of coffee bad enough to do a double spend on it. And yes, I'd wait for a few confirmations if I was transferring 100 BTC.

The point is: Block time doesn't matter for 99% of transactions. And for the 1% where it might matter (bigger purchases), 10-30 minutes is an acceptable waiting period!


A Misconception:
I think that the complaints about the block confirmation time stem from a misconception of what is happening with credit cards, which causes a person not to compare apples to apples:  Your credit card and debit transactions are not instantly confirmed either. At stores these transactions are given credibility "immediately" but still take 3-5 days to actually move through the payment processors between bank accounts. 3-5 days is WAY slower than 10-30 minutes for a block confirmation if you want to compare apples to apples. The problem is people aren't comparing apples to apples when they compare 10 minute block times with credit card transactions. The credit card transactions aren't "confirmed" either at this point. The payment processor is simply fronting the money (just like blockchain.info shows the transaction instantly) while the transaction goes through. These credit card payment processors are basing this method on the same logic that blockchain.info uses to instantly display transactions: It's the fact that most transactions aren't fraudulent. And who wastes their time trying to defraud a system to steal a $5 cup of coffee?



Correct comparisons:
Bitcoin purchase = appears within seconds on the network
Credit card purchase = appears to be completed within seconds
(TIE)

Bitcoin money is ACTUALLY transferred = 10 minute average time
Credit card money is ACTUALLY transferred = 3-5 days (or longer)*
(BITCOIN wins)

*If I remember correctly, Andreas Antonopoulos said in one of his videos that credit card transactions aren't settled for up to 30 days. Now how does that compare to 10 minutes?  Compare apples to apples.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Lastly, from satoshi's own mouth on the subject of verifying fast payments:

Besides, 10 minutes is too long to verify that payment is good.  It needs to be as fast as swiping a credit card is today.

See the snack machine thread, I outline how a payment processor could verify payments well enough, actually really well (much lower fraud rate than credit cards), in something like 10 seconds or less.  If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

[MarketNeutral]

Or send a bank wire transfer.

Compare the speed of the ironically-named SWIFT system to the speed of the bitcoin network.

[colinistheman]

Or send a bank wire transfer.

Exactly. That is the true comparison to a confirmation on the blockchain.

[jonald_fyookball]

good post Colin.

but .... yeah.... a noob is likely to complain
again in about a week.

[hhanh00]

Where do you get the 99% figure? In my experience, every merchant waits for at least a confirmation. Bitpay min is 1, max 6. Exchanges: 6. Poker sites: 4, etc.

The details of the protocol are irrelevant to the end user.

[maurya78]

Side Chains will hopefully solve the block confirmation road block to a great degree when they come on. Still a nascent but promising space.

[colinistheman]

good post Colin.

Thanks. I've watched a lot of Andreas Antonopoulos videos. I highly recommend this.

but .... yeah.... a noob is likely to complain
again in about a week.

If so, please just send them to this thread.

I'd really like to get the community awareness up on this area so we can move into building on bitcoin rather than spending time complaining about things that don't really matter. Let's get this topic understood more widely.

[colinistheman]

Side Chains will hopefully solve the block confirmation road block to a great degree when they come on. Still a nascent but promising space.

That's cool to think about. What is the basic theory on how this might work? I get how the coins are "killed" in the main blockchain and brought to life on the side chain. But how could this be used to do anything with confirmation times?

Do sidechains have their own blockchain and thus could have their own confirmation times?

My knowledge of side chains isn't as good as my bitcoin knowledge.

[colinistheman]

Where do you get the 99% figure? In my experience, every merchant waits for at least a confirmation. Bitpay min is 1, max 6. Exchanges: 6. Poker sites: 4, etc.

If I remember correctly (from my last BitPay transaction), doesn't BitPay send you (the buyer) a confirmation as soon as you have sent the payment? They don't wait for a full block confirmation to send you your email receipt. The merchant gets the full payment after it has been fully confirmed in a block. But this is another good comparison to what is happening with credit cards and merchants who accept fiat/credit.

The details of the protocol are irrelevant to the end user.

Exactly. Which is why (eventually) when enough Bitcoin user applications have been built to make the use of bitcoin super user friendly, easy and seamless, you won't even need to know what a "block confirmation time" is, nor worry about it. It will be so buried beneath the surface of the whole transaction procedure that it won't matter.

A comparison would be like you and I fully understanding how a cell phone works right now. We don't need to know. We just need to know how to use a phone and have a use to find it useful. 99.9% of the population is never going to understand the technology and mechanics of bitcoin. They are just going to use it (once the applications and use are easy enough). We are definitely the geeks in the space and will remain so.

[hhanh00]

Where do you get the 99% figure? In my experience, every merchant waits for at least a confirmation. Bitpay min is 1, max 6. Exchanges: 6. Poker sites: 4, etc.

If I remember correctly (from my last BitPay transaction), doesn't BitPay send you (the buyer) a confirmation as soon as you have sent the payment? They don't wait for a full block confirmation to send you your email receipt. The merchant gets the full payment after it has been fully confirmed in a block. But this is another good comparison to what is happening with credit cards and merchants who accept fiat/credit.

The details of the protocol are irrelevant to the end user.

Exactly. Which is why (eventually) when enough Bitcoin user applications have been built to make the use of bitcoin super user friendly, easy and seamless, you won't even need to know what a "block confirmation time" is, nor worry about it. It will be so buried beneath the surface of the whole transaction procedure that it won't matter.

A comparison would be like you and I fully understanding how a cell phone works right now. We don't need to know. We just need to know how to use a phone and have a use to find it useful. 99.9% of the population is never going to understand the technology and mechanics of bitcoin. They are just going to use it (once the applications and use are easy enough). We are definitely the geeks in the space and will remain so.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. You're saying that block confirmation times shouldn't be considered and instead we should look at the time it takes to relay a transaction.
It's all good if merchants were actually accepting 0-confirmation transactions. For the most part, they aren't. Maybe they are too uncomfortable with the risk of double-spend, the bottom line is that as a user I have to wait for several confirmations.
To follow your metaphor, today most merchants require wire transfers. Until they change their policy, we can't ignore the block confirmation times.

There could be an opportunity for a service that covers the risk of a double spend and acts as insurance. I heard that Coinbase (no affiliation or recommendation implied) is basically doing that.

[colinistheman]

Where do you get the 99% figure? In my experience, every merchant waits for at least a confirmation. Bitpay min is 1, max 6. Exchanges: 6. Poker sites: 4, etc.

If I remember correctly (from my last BitPay transaction), doesn't BitPay send you (the buyer) a confirmation as soon as you have sent the payment? They don't wait for a full block confirmation to send you your email receipt. The merchant gets the full payment after it has been fully confirmed in a block. But this is another good comparison to what is happening with credit cards and merchants who accept fiat/credit.

The details of the protocol are irrelevant to the end user.

Exactly. Which is why (eventually) when enough Bitcoin user applications have been built to make the use of bitcoin super user friendly, easy and seamless, you won't even need to know what a "block confirmation time" is, nor worry about it. It will be so buried beneath the surface of the whole transaction procedure that it won't matter.

A comparison would be like you and I fully understanding how a cell phone works right now. We don't need to know. We just need to know how to use a phone and have a use to find it useful. 99.9% of the population is never going to understand the technology and mechanics of bitcoin. They are just going to use it (once the applications and use are easy enough). We are definitely the geeks in the space and will remain so.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. You're saying that block confirmation times shouldn't be considered and instead we should look at the time it takes to relay a transaction.
It's all good if merchants were actually accepting 0-confirmation transactions. For the most part, they aren't. Maybe they are too uncomfortable with the risk of double-spend, the bottom line is that as a user I have to wait for several confirmations.
To follow your metaphor, today most merchants require wire transfers. Until they change their policy, we can't ignore the block confirmation times.

There could be an opportunity for a service that covers the risk of a double spend and acts as insurance. I heard that Coinbase (no affiliation or recommendation implied) is basically doing that.

Actually I think we are saying the same thing more than you realize. I understand what you mean completely.

You said it yourself, "It's all good if merchants were actually accepting 0-confirmation transactions". This is one of the [several] gaps to bridge in making bitcoin more usable. Just like if there was no web browser it would be pretty hard to use the Internet. Well, there are many features and enhancements that can be made to make the existing bitcoin network more user friendly, and more widespread use of "instant transaction recognition" (to coin a new term) will be one of them.

Also, I'm not at all saying that block confirmations shouldn't ever be looked at. A block confirmation is an obviously vital part of the bitcoin blockchain technology and absolutely has its place. They just aren't always required right away to process a transaction in the real world. And that is the point of this thread-- to point out that 10 minute blocks are not the end of the world, when implemented properly.

[dwma]

Isn't it quite simple to double spend if no one waits for 1 confirmation?  I don't know how the double spends work but it seems like it would be quite easy to pull off double spends once people allow spending of funds with not even a confirmation.

I've done BTC transactions and waiting 6 confirms sux.  I go use Bitshares and 10 seconds unless network isn't healthy but worst case is always far far faster than BTC.

In fact the reason I liked BTC to begin with turned out to not even be true due to these limitations of the block times and POW.

[railzand]

Besides, 10 minutes is too long to verify that payment is good.  It needs to be as fast as swiping a credit card is today.

See the snack machine thread, I outline how a payment processor could verify payments well enough, actually really well (much lower fraud rate than credit cards), in something like 10 seconds or less.  If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

[colinistheman]

Besides, 10 minutes is too long to verify that payment is good.  It needs to be as fast as swiping a credit card is today.

See the snack machine thread, I outline how a payment processor could verify payments well enough, actually really well (much lower fraud rate than credit cards), in something like 10 seconds or less.  If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

^ Thank you! That is a great post by satoshi that is saying about the exact same thing!  I should go read all his posts. There is some wisdom there!

[BillyBobZorton]

The problem is for daily usage. Like if you want to go out and make some groceries with Bitcoin, most people aren't safe until the confirmations go through.. for some reason they think that when they pay with Credit Cards, it gets automatically confirmed when the same thing happens.

[sherbyspark]

The problem is for daily usage. Like if you want to go out and make some groceries with Bitcoin, most people aren't safe until the confirmations go through.. for some reason they think that when they pay with Credit Cards, it gets automatically confirmed when the same thing happens.

I have never complained about confirmation times, but I see cases when it becomes important.
First is what is quoted.
Second, when you go to sites which require you to deposit bitcoins, like you have a poker tournament at 11, and you send the funds at 10:30. Now those sites require 2 confirmations to confirm your deposit and allow you to play. In those cases, the over wait becomes a problem.
You could always say, then send before, but sometimes it has happened that I saw a tourney in the last half hour, and my deposit didn't go through.

[franky1]

agreed 99% of Tx's dont really require confirms..

but for all of those that do need confirms.. they cry when they wait over 10 minutes.. but i have never ever seen them post when their TX's have taken them just a couple minutes to confirm due to fast hashing

[dwma]

Besides, 10 minutes is too long to verify that payment is good.  It needs to be as fast as swiping a credit card is today.

See the snack machine thread, I outline how a payment processor could verify payments well enough, actually really well (much lower fraud rate than credit cards), in something like 10 seconds or less.  If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=423.msg3819#msg3819

^ Thank you! That is a great post by satoshi that is saying about the exact same thing!  I should go read all his posts. There is some wisdom there!

Other people argue differently in that same thread.  Spitting out 2 spends from the same time is easily done.  It can work enough to be a valid attack.  That is why everyone insists on at least a confirmation for transactions of any significance.

The problem is that for people are fascinated by the pure technical aspect of being able to spend digital money, this wait time causes a severe problem.  The answer of the koolaid drinkers is not better technology, it is layering on kludges to fix the problem.

[dwma]

agreed 99% of Tx's dont really require confirms..

but for all of those that do need confirms.. they cry when they wait over 10 minutes.. but i have never ever seen them post when their TX's have taken them just a couple minutes to confirm due to fast hashing

\

It isn't fast hashing, it is just luck.  I've had to sit around a BTC ATM machine an extra 30 minutes because hashes were coming through that were longer than 10 minutes.

[Elwar]

Credit card confirmations take 180 days.