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Question: Should this system replace DefaultTrust? (Your vote may be published.)  (Voting closed: January 10, 2015, 04:19:13 AM)
Yes, it should. - 38 (47.5%)
No, keep DefaultTrust - 42 (52.5%)
Total Voters: 80

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Author Topic: Replacing DefaultTrust  (Read 15637 times)
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January 05, 2015, 02:56:06 PM
 #41

Personally I think the current system works fine if we keep allowing public disputes like we have seen lately. When bad feedback is given have it posted in Meta and let the community decide if the feedback was bad/warranted. For a new member to join and be presented with a random list would be pretty confusing imo.

Seconding this thought.

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January 05, 2015, 03:09:56 PM
Last edit: January 05, 2015, 03:30:40 PM by hilariousandco
 #42

This kind of sums up why I don't think moderators and staff should have the ability to single handedly burn a users reputation just because they have a high trust rating via exclusion or otherwise.  

lolwut. Staff shouldn't have the ability to single-handedly burn a users reputation(?) but yet that's exactly what you did and want to be able to do again and that's why you're a hypocrite. You need to get out of this mentality that you earned your right to abuse your position of power. Even if we went to your system what happens when people abuse it? You leave neg feedback because someone told you you're selling something that you can get cheaper elsewhere then you ruin their feedback because they 'harass' you when you act like an arse because you can because you're on default trust and they're not? Then I leave you feedback for abusing the system and you return the favour. I tell you I will remove my feedback only when you remove yours and the other but you stubbornly wont remove either until I remove mine and I do the same then we're both ruined and deadlocked with negative. Then someone else leaves us both feedback for being idiots etc.

It is clear you see anyone that is not in you clique as being not worthy of being able to make their own determinations in trust, and god forbid they build some authority outside your own.

No. I just don't think people should use the default trust as a blackmailing tool to get someone who isn't in their clique to shut up and someone shouldn't be adding a newb with three posts just because they left them feedback. That feedback should quite rightly be untrusted but they add that person to their list so it becomes trusted and both cases are abuse of the system. You loved this trust clique and the power it gave you all up until the point you were removed. Tired of explaining this and reading your same old argument.

Actually, can we implement this new system to shut techshare up. No doubt it'll backfire on him somehow and he'll still complain.


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January 05, 2015, 03:40:55 PM
 #43

^^ On top of this, I'd personally implement not being able to remove feedback and being able to leave multiple points/feedback.
If someone deserves a negative, you can give one to them. And if they, for example, stop scamming and become a better user - you leave them another +1 feedback and get them back on track, while leaving their scamming history and allowing users to see what happened in the past. Because what's stopping you from scamming someone when you have +10 trust points?
I for one think we should be able to see the entire account history and see what they did - trust-wise - the entire time they've been registered on BT.
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January 05, 2015, 03:52:24 PM
 #44

The solution doesn't (can't) have to be perfect, only better than what we currently have, right?
Well this is worth a shot, although I do agree with what Vod said.

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January 05, 2015, 03:56:36 PM
 #45

^^ On top of this, I'd personally implement not being able to remove feedback?

Why? What if you're wrong or you change your mind? Feedbacks aren't always for scamming and people can always change or improve over time.

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January 05, 2015, 04:09:16 PM
 #46

A recommended trust list should still remain and be copied from DefaultTrust, but not automatically enabled, if you're going to do this. I don't want to have to build an entire trust list from scratch, and having some kind of trust list like DefaultTrust does help to make most members on the board have a general idea of who is trustworthy and who isn't.

Unfortunately a basic reputation system like the ones on MyBB forums can't work due to the vast amount of Newbie trolls/scammers. It's a shame.

 
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January 05, 2015, 04:43:33 PM
 #47

Well I'm glad my threads have started a bit of a discussion.
regardless that it only somewhat helped me Sad

Why have a default anyway? why is one needed at all?

The issue with not being able to counter or argue feedback, (Especially to the trusted members) is a huge one.

If a noob leaves a BS comment, that's one thing.
If a trusted member does, there should be a method to counter or argue and if the person is found to be leaving BS feedback, they should be removed from the list.
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January 05, 2015, 05:01:44 PM
 #48

What happens with the other side of the abuse, such as BFL's trust competition abuse? A modern day version would be one person making multiple smurfs and hammering people they don't like using many accounts. Now unless someone more powerful comes in and red's all those accounts, it hurt's that user's rating inappropriately.

I also echo the messages that these core members will simply get stronger and stronger ratings and its virtually impossible for anyone to ever catch up with them or replace one of them. I don't have a solution, I'm just not sure if its a good thing.

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January 05, 2015, 05:21:53 PM
 #49

^^ On top of this, I'd personally implement not being able to remove feedback?

Why? What if you're wrong or you change your mind? Feedbacks aren't always for scamming and people can always change or improve over time.

If you change your mind, you'd simply leave another +1 or -1, respectively.
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January 05, 2015, 05:26:08 PM
 #50

^^ On top of this, I'd personally implement not being able to remove feedback?

Why? What if you're wrong or you change your mind? Feedbacks aren't always for scamming and people can always change or improve over time.

If you change your mind, you'd simply leave another +1 or -1, respectively.

But what if what you left is completely wrong? Or you made a typo  Cheesy.

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January 05, 2015, 05:28:52 PM
 #51

^^ On top of this, I'd personally implement not being able to remove feedback?

Why? What if you're wrong or you change your mind? Feedbacks aren't always for scamming and people can always change or improve over time.

If you change your mind, you'd simply leave another +1 or -1, respectively.

But what if what you left is completely wrong? Or you made a typo  Cheesy.

You'd be smart enough to check, and state your error in the next feedback you post.
OR
Allowing feedback to be deleted within 5-10 minutes of leaving it.
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January 06, 2015, 01:58:54 AM
 #52

^^ On top of this, I'd personally implement not being able to remove feedback?

Why? What if you're wrong or you change your mind? Feedbacks aren't always for scamming and people can always change or improve over time.

If you change your mind, you'd simply leave another +1 or -1, respectively.

But what if what you left is completely wrong? Or you made a typo  Cheesy.

You'd be smart enough to check, and state your error in the next feedback you post.
OR
Allowing feedback to be deleted within 5-10 minutes of leaving it.

You can already leave multiple trust ratings. So you can already do what you have described. I think that changing it so that feedback can't be altered would cause to many issues.

Message me if you have any problems
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January 06, 2015, 03:39:48 AM
 #53

This kind of sums up why I don't think moderators and staff should have the ability to single handedly burn a users reputation just because they have a high trust rating via exclusion or otherwise.  

lolwut. Staff shouldn't have the ability to single-handedly burn a users reputation(?) but yet that's exactly what you did and want to be able to do again and that's why you're a hypocrite. You need to get out of this mentality that you earned your right to abuse your position of power. Even if we went to your system what happens when people abuse it? You leave neg feedback because someone told you you're selling something that you can get cheaper elsewhere then you ruin their feedback because they 'harass' you when you act like an arse because you can because you're on default trust and they're not? Then I leave you feedback for abusing the system and you return the favour. I tell you I will remove my feedback only when you remove yours and the other but you stubbornly wont remove either until I remove mine and I do the same then we're both ruined and deadlocked with negative. Then someone else leaves us both feedback for being idiots etc.

It is clear you see anyone that is not in you clique as being not worthy of being able to make their own determinations in trust, and god forbid they build some authority outside your own.

No. I just don't think people should use the default trust as a blackmailing tool to get someone who isn't in their clique to shut up and someone shouldn't be adding a newb with three posts just because they left them feedback. That feedback should quite rightly be untrusted but they add that person to their list so it becomes trusted and both cases are abuse of the system. You loved this trust clique and the power it gave you all up until the point you were removed. Tired of explaining this and reading your same old argument.

Actually, can we implement this new system to shut techshare up. No doubt it'll backfire on him somehow and he'll still complain.



It is really amazing to me that with all the ACTUAL ABUSE of the trust system by people like VOD and other "scambusters" going completely ignored, you feel as if my one use of trust that you didn't approve of personally was "blackmail" and and unforgivable attempt to "extort" another user to "shut up". You are taking quite a few liberties with your narrative, in addition to claiming the psychic abilities to know what happens in my mind. You aren't explaining anything, just making up some bullshit narrative to justify your overreaction, vitriol, and attempt to invalidate any of my valid complaints. It is very clear that you are unable to control your emotional state regarding this issue and this has become a personal mission for you.

Furthermore you act as if there is no gap between "a noob with three posts" and the trust list level, this is another glaring misrepresentation. You take everything I say and apply the most extreme interpretation of it as possible to attempt to invalidate the idea. People should be able to make trust networks outside of the clutches of jaded angry children like hilariousandco and VOD. 

If you bothered to actually consider what I said in my posts between your hyperventilating, you would see I am asking for people on the "default list" to have LESS POWER to completely destroy people, and along with that there should be a corresponding removal of any officially staff run trust moderation. This lessens a single individuals ability to burn a user singlehandedly, and also removes the ability for random trolls to create infighting and extort trusted users simply trying to protect their HARD EARNED trust by making endless false complaints.

You claim you don't want the default trust used as a blackmailing tool, but you only want to stop the abuse from ONE DIRECTION, and it just to happens to be a form of abuse you will never personally suffer from because you have all kinds of fun moderator buttons at your fingertips. The REST OF US have to use the tools we have available. If the default trust can be used by more powerful members to negate a users trust ratings, and if trust is moderated IN ANY WAY, then the default trust can ACTUALLY be used to extort users into compliance by ANYONE making a complaint about a rating. Of course since you are staff that will never be a issue for you because you are in the boys club, so why should anyone else be protected from this form of extortion? 



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January 06, 2015, 04:23:34 AM
 #54

I don't usually do this, but I'm very unsure about whether DefaultTrust or this new system is better, so I added a poll. My decision will be significantly influenced by the poll, but not absolutely decided by it. I will disregard votes by people below a certain member rank. I might also publish the votes.

If someone only ever uses the checkboxes to edit their trust list, then I will make it so that this doesn't increase the "suggestion points" of the people they select. (This isn't implemented yet.)

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January 06, 2015, 04:31:48 AM
 #55

FYI, I added the top 15 people in your list to my trust settings, and accounts that were proven scammers were showing up in my trusted feedback list.   Undecided

I like using just DefaultTrust as it shows me what the community thinks about a person.  I will probably never add individual users to my trust list, and therefore I won't qualify to be on your top 30. 

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
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January 06, 2015, 04:35:22 AM
 #56

I think this will benefit people in the forums who aren't new. In my opinion, the trust system should be used more towards newbies because they are the most vulnerable to scams. When they're redirected to that page and forced to choose new users to add to their trust circle, most likely they'll blindly pick members which won't serve a use for them. It's improvement, but I'm not sure if it will be used to its full extent by new users. It's their loss nonetheless.
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January 06, 2015, 04:38:10 AM
 #57

Its not an easy thing to change as both systems do help the community but are easily exploitable by certain people.

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January 06, 2015, 04:39:45 AM
 #58

I think this will benefit people in the forums who aren't new. In my opinion, the trust system should be used more towards newbies because they are the most vulnerable to scams. When they're redirected to that page and forced to choose new users to add to their trust circle, most likely they'll blindly pick members which won't serve a use for them. It's improvement, but I'm not sure if it will be used to its full extent by new users. It's their loss nonetheless.

Gyfts has a good idea.  What if you made the new system pop up once a user reached Member or some other status?  That way newbies are protected by DefaultTrust but as they get to know the forum better they can choose who they trust.

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January 06, 2015, 04:41:43 AM
 #59

I think this will benefit people in the forums who aren't new. In my opinion, the trust system should be used more towards newbies because they are the most vulnerable to scams. When they're redirected to that page and forced to choose new users to add to their trust circle, most likely they'll blindly pick members which won't serve a use for them. It's improvement, but I'm not sure if it will be used to its full extent by new users. It's their loss nonetheless.

Gyfts has a good idea.  What if you made the new system pop up once a user reached Member or some other status?  That way newbies are protected by DefaultTrust but as they get to know the forum better they can choose who they trust.
This is just the same abusable system repackaged. Furthermore it doesn't serve real newbies at all. By the time they have reached member status they likely don't need the trust system any more to decide who is reliable.


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January 06, 2015, 04:50:21 AM
 #60

It is really amazing to me that with all the ACTUAL ABUSE of the trust system by people like VOD and other "scambusters" going completely ignored, you feel as if my one use of trust that you didn't approve of personally was "blackmail" and and unforgivable attempt to "extort" another user to "shut up". You are taking quite a few liberties with your narrative, in addition to claiming the psychic abilities to know what happens in my mind.

Other instances of abuse doesn't validate yours or invalidate the decision against you. I think vod has over-stepped the mark a few times recently but he will usually do something to remedy it. You didn't. 

You aren't explaining anything, just making up some bullshit narrative to justify your overreaction, vitriol, and attempt to invalidate any of my valid complaints. It is very clear that you are unable to control your emotional state regarding this issue and this has become a personal mission for you.

The only person here with a bullshit narrative and who is 'unable to control their emotional state' is you and I don't have a personal mission (unlike you) but I'm just responding to your bullshit.  You just can't look at this from any other angle and attempt to pass the blame on to others who may or may not be abusing the system. Regardless of that, you still abused it. Is it unforgivable? No, but you could've sorted this out all by yourself but you acted stubbornly and immaturely and are continuing to do do. 

Furthermore you act as if there is no gap between "a noob with three posts" and the trust list level, this is another glaring misrepresentation.

You can add a 3-post newb to your trust list if you want, but I don't think that's the sort of behaviour people on the default trust list should have, especially when it is quite clear that person has only been trusted to boost their own feedback. Stop trying to distract from the point at hand. 

If you bothered to actually consider what I said in my posts between your hyperventilating[...]

jaded angry children

No, I've considered it. You're the only hyperventilating jaded, angry child here. One that by the looks of it is never going to stop throwing a temper tantrum all over the place until he gets his own way. 

you would see I am asking for people on the "default list" to have LESS POWER to completely destroy people, and along with that there should be a corresponding removal of any officially staff run trust moderation.

I don't see how this system would work. The current one works fine as long as we have rational people who can handle their position responsibly and when they can't they get rightfully removed, but of course people will either love or hate certain staff or people being in control when things do or don't go their way. Armis is probably quite thankful they stepped in for this instance. 

This lessens a single individuals ability to burn a user singlehandedly, and also removes the ability for random trolls to create infighting and extort trusted users simply trying to protect their HARD EARNED trust by making endless false complaints.

This is your biggest mistake. You think you earned the right to abuse your position and it's irrelevant because your trust and trade history has been left untouched only your ability to leave such trusted feedbacks has been revoked, but that was your own wrong doing. 

You claim you don't want the default trust used as a blackmailing tool, but you only want to stop the abuse from ONE DIRECTION, and it just to happens to be a form of abuse you will never personally suffer from because you have all kinds of fun moderator buttons at your fingertips. The REST OF US have to use the tools we have available. If the default trust can be used by more powerful members to negate a users trust ratings, and if trust is moderated IN ANY WAY, then the default trust can ACTUALLY be used to extort users into compliance by ANYONE making a complaint about a rating. Of course since you are staff that will never be a issue for you because you are in the boys club, so why should anyone else be protected from this form of extortion?  

What fun buttons are those? The ability to move threads? Whoop-de-doo. Moderators can't do much on this forum apart from that and if we abused our power in even the slightest infraction I'm sure we'd have to account for it.  And besides, I have - or you had - the same power as me as does anyone who is on defaultrust and if I abused it in the same fashion as you did I would likely be removed from the list and maybe even as a moderator, that is of course unless I would be willing to see the error of my ways and compromise, which you didn't do. The difference between me and you is I can likely handle the situation maturely without having to resort to feedback abuse in an attempt to get somecone to do what I want (which is what you did by your own admission). Someone wants to troll or harass or state I'm selling something overpriced? Go right ahead. I can rise above it or deal with it without resorting to the feedback system. 

Maybe we should just agree to disagree because this isn't going to ever go anywhere. You think you're right and hard done by and I think you over-reacted and used the system as blackmail and clearly neither of us are going to change our opinion on the subject but I'm getting bored of rephrasing the same old argument to your rehashed points especially over such a petty matter and I'm sure you feel the same. 

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