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Question: Should this system replace DefaultTrust? (Your vote may be published.)  (Voting closed: January 10, 2015, 04:19:13 AM)
Yes, it should. - 38 (47.5%)
No, keep DefaultTrust - 42 (52.5%)
Total Voters: 80

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Author Topic: Replacing DefaultTrust  (Read 15639 times)
Mitchell
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January 06, 2015, 03:12:05 PM
 #101

What makes you think its not happening now - but instead of an army, only involving a handful of people? Because that's all it takes.
The same reason why having a puppet army wouldn't work for me. It gets noticed and people that abusive their ratings will be removed from the Default Trustlist (and most of the positive feedback they have gets removed).

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January 06, 2015, 03:19:57 PM
 #102

Dear Brother Thermos, will you please admit that Trust Ranking has utterly failed in its ostensible purpose of scam prevention?

XPOST:

In the end why are you so bothered? Your buyers can see your feedback and see that you are a reputed seller.

If TECSHARE doesn't deserve Default Trust, almost nobody does.  Especially not that begging, hectoring collectivist Bitchnellski.

I'm not bothered, but rather amused at the absurdity of the fiasco which is the BTCT Trust ranking system.

Satoshi, after years of others trying to fine-tune and prevent gaming of decentralized online trust consensus systems, cut that Gordian Knot with his PoW blockchain.

What incendiary irony that His Holy Forum struggles with and bickers over its centralized, politicized, at-best minimally useful Trust ranking system.

Yes, yes.  We know.  It's For The ChildrenTM (IE noobs).  Of course.

How's that working out for us?  Are we free from the Paycoins of the world yet?  Has the trust system done anything but sow conflict and create rancorous distractions?

Did Satoshi teach us nothing about the unworkability of such systems?

Please trash the stupid thing and be done with it.  Let those who haven't learned use the WOT, and those who have the appropriate feedback threads. 

You cannot automate this.  Nobody can, although many have tried.  Stop wasting (y)our time and pissing people off with these vain high-maintenance attempts.


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January 06, 2015, 03:27:06 PM
 #103

What makes you think its not happening now - but instead of an army, only involving a handful of people? Because that's all it takes.
The same reason why having a puppet army wouldn't work for me. It gets noticed and people that abusive their ratings will be removed from the Default Trustlist (and most of the positive feedback they have gets removed).
It gets noticed alright, but does anything actually happen mate?
I could be wrong, but in my time here, I've never seen anyone on the DefaultList removed.
But on a more fundamental level, aren't you the least bit uncomfortable by the very presence of a super class of users?


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January 06, 2015, 03:31:02 PM
 #104

It gets noticed alright, but does anything actually happen mate?
I could be wrong, but in my time here, I've never seen anyone on the DefaultList removed.
But on a more fundamental level, aren't you the least bit uncomfortable by the very presence of a super class of users?
I have seen it before, yes. The last time wasn't that long ago and was about some people that  CanaryInTheMine had on his trust list / that he rated. And no, I don't feel uncomfortable with a "super class" of users "above" me. I have been here for over 1.5 years and I never had any problem with the "super class", even though I don't always agree with them.
In fact, I joined the "super class" yesterday, because BadBear added me to his list. Does that make me a better human? Not at all.

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January 06, 2015, 03:39:08 PM
 #105

It gets noticed alright, but does anything actually happen mate?
I could be wrong, but in my time here, I've never seen anyone on the DefaultList removed.
But on a more fundamental level, aren't you the least bit uncomfortable by the very presence of a super class of users?
I have seen it before, yes. The last time wasn't that long ago and was about some people that  CanaryInTheMine had on his trust list / that he rated. And no, I don't feel uncomfortable with a "super class" of users "above" me. I have been here for over 1.5 years and I never had any problem with the "super class", even though I don't always agree with them.
In fact, I joined the "super class" yesterday, because BadBear added me to his list. Does that make me a better human? Not at all.
Aah, so you are not an impartial observer. You have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. For the record though, you are not on the DefaultList - just depth level 2. You're not in the super class league. Since you brought up CanaryInTheMine, has his status changed yet with all the notice he received?


Edit:
I have seen it before, yes.
Can you link me to the profile of the referred DefaultTrust member?


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January 06, 2015, 03:41:43 PM
 #106

Aah, so you are not an impartial observer. You have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. For the record though, you are not on the DefaultList - just depth level 2. You're not in the super class league. Since you brought up CanaryInTheMine, has his status changed yet with all the notice he received?
Why would I have a vested interest in maintaining my depth level 2 status? I don't care about it. I will voice my opinion anyway if I feel that it's necessary. As far as I know, CanaryInTheMine has removed the bad members from his trust list and the issue was resolved.

More about this can be found: here.

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January 06, 2015, 03:43:57 PM
 #107

Aah, so you are not an impartial observer. You have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. For the record though, you are not on the DefaultList - just depth level 2. You're not in the super class league. Since you brought up CanaryInTheMine, has his status changed yet with all the notice he received?
Why would I have a vested interest in maintaining my depth level 2 status? I don't care about it. I will voice my opinion anyway if I feel that it's necessary. As far as I know, CanaryInTheMine has removed the bad members from his trust list and the issue was resolved.
Why are you asking an obvious question? Also, we are not talking about 'bad members'. We are talking about DefaultTrust members.
Can you please link me to the profile of the DefaultTrust member you claim to have seen being removed?

More about this can be found: here.
CanaryInTheMine is still on the DefaultList. What is your point?


.GLOBAL DECENTRALIZED ADVERTISING EXCHANGE.

Token sale: MAY 21

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January 06, 2015, 03:45:46 PM
 #108

Please take that argument elsewhere, it's off topic here.
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January 06, 2015, 03:48:17 PM
 #109

Why are you asking an obvious question?
Apparently that is obvious to you, but it's not to me.

Also, we are not talking about 'bad members'. We are talking about DefaultTrust members.
Can you please link me to the profile of the DefaultTrust member you claim to have seen being removed?
I thought you were talking about the DefaultTrust in general and not about someone being removed from level 1. I've no idea about that, sorry.

Please take that argument elsewhere, it's off topic here.
I'm done. Sorry for the derail.

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January 06, 2015, 03:52:38 PM
 #110

Please take that argument elsewhere, it's off topic here.
No argument. I gave my opinion to Theymos, and someone challenged one of points I brought up.


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January 06, 2015, 05:41:08 PM
Last edit: January 06, 2015, 07:57:21 PM by OgNasty
 #111

Here are the 50 users with the most points using the algorithm I described. The top 30 are always the ones suggested, but their order is randomized.

Code:
theymos         |     471.3498 |
Tomatocage      |     192.7250 |
dooglus         |     181.7917 |
BadBear         |     180.2750 |
CanaryInTheMine |     153.0830 |
HostFat         |     144.6331 |
gmaxwell        |     133.5581 |
Akka            |     109.1663 |
BCB             |     104.3748 |
escrow.ms       |     101.2499 |
phantastisch    |      99.6915 |
ghibly79        |      65.8998 |
Michail1        |      65.2249 |
Maidak          |      62.5085 |
Sampey          |      61.8499 |
BigBitz         |      58.6833 |
ziomik          |      58.1333 |
malevolent      |      52.4748 |
sublime5447     |      52.4665 |
Stemby          |      51.0416 |
Dabs            |      48.2251 |
Nightowlace     |      47.6417 |
klintay         |      46.5750 |
Raize           |      44.0998 |
bitpop          |      43.7249 |
fhh             |      40.5083 |
zefir           |      39.2083 |
squall1066      |      38.5001 |
philipma1957    |      38.4251 |
PsychoticBoy    |      35.5750 |
KWH             |      35.5581 |
terrapinflyer   |      34.8666 |
binaryFate      |      33.8332 |
Bicknellski     |      33.5084 |
DebitMe         |      30.1501 |
elasticband     |      29.8501 |
TECSHARE        |      29.3915 |
LouReed         |      28.9249 |
2weiX           |      28.6999 |
ManeBjorn       |      27.5749 |
miaviator       |      27.3333 |
androz          |      26.2500 |
bobsag3         |      25.9415 |
nachius         |      25.2916 |
CoinHoarder     |      23.3749 |
mrbrt           |      23.1249 |
EnJoyThis       |      22.5167 |
WEB slicer      |      20.3749 |
Rub3n           |      20.0251 |
Ente            |      18.9750 |
----------------+--------------+

A quick glance shows that I'm not one of the 50 most trusted members here? That's somewhat shocking to me. I also see that bobsag3 who openly scammed me and had his original username scammer tagged is on the list, adding positive trust for companies like Black Arrow who have stolen hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from this community.  Very disturbing because I thought the trust system we had in place was working out great and holding up well as evidenced by BFL_Josh's failed trust sabotage experiment. If you pay close attention to your trust network and use it appropriately, it is quite accurate in my opinion. I worry that this new method is already off to a bad start when I see known repeat scammers on the list who would give newbies a positive trust rating for companies like Black Arrow. Again, I just took a quick glance.

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January 06, 2015, 05:53:17 PM
 #112

Please bear with me [2] when reading this as I might repeat things others have said, but I binge reply to 6 pages here.


I was thinking about replacing DefaultTrust in the following way:

When users first try to view a topic in a Trust-enabled section, they will instead see this page and be forced to select some users to trust before being allowed to continue to the topic. In addition to the empty text box currently on the Trust settings page, up to 30 users will be suggested.


While I like the basic idea of people creating  their own list, I find this:

Quote
If you don't know any of the users listed, you should pick 10-20 users at random...

very troubling. A new user would have no idea who to trust so why make them select 10-20 users at random?
IMHO its perfectly fine to trust no one in the beginning and start creating your trust list over time. I visit the board almost daily for over a year now and I couldnt pick 10 trustworthy people out of the list, hence my short list I trust. This might be because I am not as active in the marketplace section as others, but consider how this is for someone completetly new, knowing no one.

-snip-
Each person gets N points whenever they are trusted by someone, and loses N points whenever they are distrusted by someone, where N = 0 if the rater is less than a full member and N = [rater's activity]/120 if the rater is at least a full member.

This greatly favours account farmers. While this would be a great idea if we somehow could ensure one account per physical entitiy (human, feline overlord, dog, etc.) anyone can create new accounts, farm the accounts for 120 days and use them to boost trust of a single account. This could even be sold as a service to others in need of a little trustboost. There are probably people farming accounts for sales allready.

I agree with Vod, newbies will probably forget about it when it's set. Perhaps writing up a thread about the trust system and forcing newbies to read it? The text on the current suggest page looks good, but it's important and should be made looking more important.
Maybe a sticky in trust-enabled sections too?

As we allready see people do not read stickies and you cant actually force someone to read something. You can force them to load the page and wait a certain amount of time before clicking something, but they might as well bounce a ball[1] while they have to wait.

-snip-
That's maybe why it isn't good for newbies to choose this. You can and should add people you trust to your trust list.

That requires thinking, something a lot of people find so hard that they won't do it.

Which is fine for them, isnt it? I dont think this board should try (and fail) to force people into anything. People invest in HYIP and Ponzies all the time.

-snip-
If someone only ever uses the checkboxes to edit their trust list, then I will make it so that this doesn't increase the "suggestion points" of the people they select. (This isn't implemented yet.)

I like this, but someone gameing the system would obviously work around this and edit the list by hand.

My major concern is that there are very few people who give negative trust to scammers and potential scammers.
-snip-

IMHO this can be prevented by a good amount (~50 should do currently) of old timers adding those in question (e.g. Vod) to their trust list. Thus the "scam busters" stay on top of the new points system. At least until the shill armada arrives.

-snip-
With the proposed system, each user would need to manually remove TF (in this example) from their trust network which will probably not be updated very often. Users may or may not set a trust network and "forget it" but I don't think they will, as a general rule check places like scam accusations on a regular basis to make sure a new scammer who was previously trusted is removed from their network.

While this is true it also decentralizes trust.

I would say that the people who are trusted by default trust should have a somewhat large trust network and be active in adding (and removing as necessary) users to their trust network.
-snip-
I also think we shouldn't have people like CanaryInTheMine who add everyone and their brother they have ever done business with as this will result in people in default trust network that should realistically not be there.

While I understand your point I see no way to moderate this. You cant encurage people to be active (which can be gamed as well btw) and at the same time punish them if they are over a certain, arbitrary point.

A last concern is one that was touched on before, but not heavily discussed. This system would not be difficult to manipulate, but it would be much more difficult to detect manipulation. One could quietly buy up a lot of accounts then buy a 2nd set of accounts they want to be trusted. The first set of accounts could all have the 2nd set of accounts added to their trust list which would result in them being often suggested for newer users to add to their trust list. More experienced users may not even notice when this is happening because they are not being asked to add new users to their trust list.

Thanks for bringing this up again. As I wrote above you dont even have to buy accounts, but could farm them yourself. 120 days might be worth spending on 50+ accounts for a long con or as a service.
If I may ask: how many accounts do you currently control that could influence this? Just to get an impression how much "power" youd have under the new system. A sum of all activity points >120 would be nice to compare it easily.

-snip-
I think that in this case it actually matters who voted for what.
One could easily manipulate the poll with many accounts; is that right?

They could and I'm sure theymos will take that into consideration and/or look out for abuse.

Theymos stated that only certain votes will count. E.g. no fresh/youngs accounts etc.

-snip-
You cannot automate this.  Nobody can, although many have tried.  Stop wasting (y)our time and pissing people off with these vain high-maintenance attempts.

IMHO this is a valid point. Id still set the default trust list "for the children" and suggest they create their own list as initiation ritual (e.g. after reaching member rank or maybe sr. member rank) which does not suggest any user. Allow any informed Newbie to do set up a list earlier and let those undecided get accustomed with the board first.



[1] http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/RcG/7G4/RcG7G4A4i.gif
[2] http://imgdonkey.com/big/VGE1MHlVWg/bear-with-me.gif
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January 06, 2015, 06:09:14 PM
 #113

Dear Brother Thermos, will you please admit that Trust Ranking has utterly failed in its ostensible purpose of scam prevention?

XPOST:

In the end why are you so bothered? Your buyers can see your feedback and see that you are a reputed seller.

If TECSHARE doesn't deserve Default Trust, almost nobody does.  Especially not that begging, hectoring collectivist Bitchnellski.

I'm not bothered, but rather amused at the absurdity of the fiasco which is the BTCT Trust ranking system.

Satoshi, after years of others trying to fine-tune and prevent gaming of decentralized online trust consensus systems, cut that Gordian Knot with his PoW blockchain.

What incendiary irony that His Holy Forum struggles with and bickers over its centralized, politicized, at-best minimally useful Trust ranking system.

Yes, yes.  We know.  It's For The ChildrenTM (IE noobs).  Of course.

How's that working out for us?  Are we free from the Paycoins of the world yet?  Has the trust system done anything but sow conflict and create rancorous distractions?

Did Satoshi teach us nothing about the unworkability of such systems?

Please trash the stupid thing and be done with it.  Let those who haven't learned use the WOT, and those who have the appropriate feedback threads. 

You cannot automate this.  Nobody can, although many have tried.  Stop wasting (y)our time and pissing people off with these vain high-maintenance attempts.


I have been trying to say this for a while but all I get is attacks for it. I wish Theymos would start fixing things BEFORE people attack me instead of always after and just pretending like the flawed system didn't contribute. I do appreciate the fact that you are at least trying to do something, not that it really helps me at this point beyond not having to watch the community destroy itself. We don't need default trust. We don't need "scambusters". People should be taking responsibility for themselves.


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CanaryInTheMine
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January 06, 2015, 08:19:48 PM
 #114

Here are the 50 users with the most points using the algorithm I described. The top 30 are always the ones suggested, but their order is randomized.

Code:
theymos         |     471.3498 |
Tomatocage      |     192.7250 |
dooglus         |     181.7917 |
BadBear         |     180.2750 |
CanaryInTheMine |     153.0830 |
HostFat         |     144.6331 |
gmaxwell        |     133.5581 |
Akka            |     109.1663 |
BCB             |     104.3748 |
escrow.ms       |     101.2499 |
phantastisch    |      99.6915 |
ghibly79        |      65.8998 |
Michail1        |      65.2249 |
Maidak          |      62.5085 |
Sampey          |      61.8499 |
BigBitz         |      58.6833 |
ziomik          |      58.1333 |
malevolent      |      52.4748 |
sublime5447     |      52.4665 |
Stemby          |      51.0416 |
Dabs            |      48.2251 |
Nightowlace     |      47.6417 |
klintay         |      46.5750 |
Raize           |      44.0998 |
bitpop          |      43.7249 |
fhh             |      40.5083 |
zefir           |      39.2083 |
squall1066      |      38.5001 |
philipma1957    |      38.4251 |
PsychoticBoy    |      35.5750 |
KWH             |      35.5581 |
terrapinflyer   |      34.8666 |
binaryFate      |      33.8332 |
Bicknellski     |      33.5084 |
DebitMe         |      30.1501 |
elasticband     |      29.8501 |
TECSHARE        |      29.3915 |
LouReed         |      28.9249 |
2weiX           |      28.6999 |
ManeBjorn       |      27.5749 |
miaviator       |      27.3333 |
androz          |      26.2500 |
bobsag3         |      25.9415 |
nachius         |      25.2916 |
CoinHoarder     |      23.3749 |
mrbrt           |      23.1249 |
EnJoyThis       |      22.5167 |
WEB slicer      |      20.3749 |
Rub3n           |      20.0251 |
Ente            |      18.9750 |
----------------+--------------+

A quick glance shows that I'm not one of the 50 most trusted members here? That's somewhat shocking to me. I also see that bobsag3 who openly scammed me and had his original username scammer tagged is on the list, adding positive trust for companies like Black Arrow who have stolen hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from this community.  Very disturbing because I thought the trust system we had in place was working out great and holding up well as evidenced by BFL_Josh's failed trust sabotage experiment. If you pay close attention to your trust network and use it appropriately, it is quite accurate in my opinion. I worry that this new method is already off to a bad start when I see known repeat scammers on the list who would give newbies a positive trust rating for companies like Black Arrow. Again, I just took a quick glance.
I think you raise a valid question: who benefits from the new approach? If shady characters and scammers can benefit from this, forget the system.

They are crying about the current system anyways and desperately trying to subvert it?
SaltySpitoon
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January 06, 2015, 09:12:09 PM
 #115

Putting in a system that can be gamed is worse than no system at all. A lot of the anti feedback sentiment is coming from hardend BCT members. Just because the 5% of people that have been around here 2+ years know how not to get scammed, doesn't mean that the 50,000 newbies aren't going to be lending their money to the people who's dogs need operations offering a 50% return per day compounded continuously for a week. I'm all for self responsibility, which I'd say all in all the userbase here does by % pretty well, but there is still a massive population that would get ripped off at every given turn. There are some scam busters that are 100% necessary, I can't think of a single time where Tomatocage has had a thread opened against him, Vod on the other hand is just a more aggressive scam buster and makes more enemies. We need people to take responsibilty for themselves, but we can't forsake the newbies either.

I still support my no trust lists, no numbers, just a straight feedback system where people can leave their thoughts/opinions. If people create an alt army to spam someone's trust, it will be very apparent and people will value those 30 identical reviews much less than a single -1 showing up next to someones name. If someone has a valid feedback claim, it will be typed in a legible matter, it will be accurate in the amount of BTC risked, and there will be a reference link where a reasonable person could read through the evidence and make an informed judgement call over whether that person is trustworthy. Having to search someone's name in scam accusations is not the way to go, but an unmoderated, unweighted, spreadsheet/list of a person's feedback with the day, btc risked, reference link, and comment is the most hands off yet stilll useful approach. If I see a review by Tomatocage on someone's profile that says they are scammy, I'm going to think for myself how much I value tomatocage's feedback, rather than relying on a big red negative number to do it for me.

 

Gleb Gamow
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January 06, 2015, 09:42:38 PM
 #116

Will the new system have the negative trust indexable via the search engines, for as it stands now nary a negative comment has ever been indexed, only found on this forum via jumping through hoops depending on what settings are ticked?

Try this example on for size: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22Buying+trust+and+other+sketchy+things%22

Like I've said, not a single negative comment has ever been indexed by Google or any other search engine.
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January 06, 2015, 10:49:17 PM
 #117

If people create an alt army to spam someone's trust, it will be very apparent and people will value those 30 identical reviews much less than a single -1 showing up next to someones name. If someone has a valid feedback claim, it will be typed in a legible matter, it will be accurate in the amount of BTC risked, and there will be a reference link where a reasonable person could read through the evidence and make an informed judgement call over whether that person is trustworthy.

You may be able to tell the difference, but 95% of members won't. They'll just see a wall of red and close that window, never to trade with that person again.

SaltySpitoon
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January 06, 2015, 11:07:04 PM
 #118

If people create an alt army to spam someone's trust, it will be very apparent and people will value those 30 identical reviews much less than a single -1 showing up next to someones name. If someone has a valid feedback claim, it will be typed in a legible matter, it will be accurate in the amount of BTC risked, and there will be a reference link where a reasonable person could read through the evidence and make an informed judgement call over whether that person is trustworthy.

You may be able to tell the difference, but 95% of members won't. They'll just see a wall of red and close that window, never to trade with that person again.

Right, but dont make it red, just feedback, and it will force them to read it.

MadZ
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January 06, 2015, 11:19:55 PM
 #119

Here are the 50 users with the most points using the algorithm I described. The top 30 are always the ones suggested, but their order is randomized.

Code:
theymos         |     471.3498 |
Tomatocage      |     192.7250 |
dooglus         |     181.7917 |
BadBear         |     180.2750 |
CanaryInTheMine |     153.0830 |
HostFat         |     144.6331 |
gmaxwell        |     133.5581 |
Akka            |     109.1663 |
BCB             |     104.3748 |
escrow.ms       |     101.2499 |
phantastisch    |      99.6915 |
ghibly79        |      65.8998 |
Michail1        |      65.2249 |
Maidak          |      62.5085 |
Sampey          |      61.8499 |
BigBitz         |      58.6833 |
ziomik          |      58.1333 |
malevolent      |      52.4748 |
sublime5447     |      52.4665 |
Stemby          |      51.0416 |
Dabs            |      48.2251 |
Nightowlace     |      47.6417 |
klintay         |      46.5750 |
Raize           |      44.0998 |
bitpop          |      43.7249 |
fhh             |      40.5083 |
zefir           |      39.2083 |
squall1066      |      38.5001 |
philipma1957    |      38.4251 |
PsychoticBoy    |      35.5750 |
KWH             |      35.5581 |
terrapinflyer   |      34.8666 |
binaryFate      |      33.8332 |
Bicknellski     |      33.5084 |
DebitMe         |      30.1501 |
elasticband     |      29.8501 |
TECSHARE        |      29.3915 |
LouReed         |      28.9249 |
2weiX           |      28.6999 |
ManeBjorn       |      27.5749 |
miaviator       |      27.3333 |
androz          |      26.2500 |
bobsag3         |      25.9415 |
nachius         |      25.2916 |
CoinHoarder     |      23.3749 |
mrbrt           |      23.1249 |
EnJoyThis       |      22.5167 |
WEB slicer      |      20.3749 |
Rub3n           |      20.0251 |
Ente            |      18.9750 |
----------------+--------------+

A quick glance shows that I'm not one of the 50 most trusted members here? That's somewhat shocking to me. I also see that bobsag3 who openly scammed me and had his original username scammer tagged is on the list, adding positive trust for companies like Black Arrow who have stolen hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from this community.  Very disturbing because I thought the trust system we had in place was working out great and holding up well as evidenced by BFL_Josh's failed trust sabotage experiment. If you pay close attention to your trust network and use it appropriately, it is quite accurate in my opinion. I worry that this new method is already off to a bad start when I see known repeat scammers on the list who would give newbies a positive trust rating for companies like Black Arrow. Again, I just took a quick glance.

While I dislike the proposed system, I will explain why you are not in the top 50 under the example theymos posted, and there is a legitimate reason for it. People gain points on that list by being added to someone's trust list manually. Since you are at depth 1, few people have had any reason to add you to their personal trust lists, so you have a very low score. As you can see, many users who are high up in the top 50, such as Maidak, simpey, and BigBitz are not in default trust at all. The reason they are so high on this list at the moment is because a lot of people have manually added them to their own trust lists, since they are trusted traders but not in default trust. Their scores would be much lower if they were in default trust, since people would have no reason to manually add them. All trust lists would be reset if the new system was put in place, and you would almost certainly be in the top 10 once you are no longer automatically in people's trust lists.
Reynaldo
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January 07, 2015, 12:14:34 AM
 #120

Why don't you add to the formula that people get 30 random people from the most visited area that the user visits, that means that you'll need a formula to determine the most used forum by an user and then that it poops up 30-50 people from the 5 most visited area of the forums..
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