I believe theses quotes should now kill BS&T.

[rjk]

rjk, I firmly believe that this guy is a scammer! Are you seriously saying that I should shut up and let him steal everyone's money?

Also, betting with someone about when he himself will choose to default?

I can do four-digit BTC, against you, right here. We need to get some mod we both respect to hold the funds, and that's that. Betting on this does not scare me at all, I'm not just trolling for the heck of it. On the contrary, this is exactly what I want.

Give me financial instruments to go against these types of operations, and I will crush them with precision every time and make a killing off it. The only thing is that time-scales must be conservative now because it is public, Pirateat40 can just play as some other account, and thus I have to pick scales and bets that don't let him trick me.

But he's not going to bend over for 1k BTC, especially not on a long-term bet, so bring it on.

I don't gamble. I just wish that there were proof (from both sides, but meh); indeed such proof as would stand in a courtroom, not speculation. I don't see him advertising at all, or drawing anyone in, or what have you. This concern perhaps extends to his lenders that are making him more accessible to others, but really that is just additional risk for someone to consider (pirate risk + lender risk).

I recall Deepbit when it was becoming large and perceived as a threat. There was all kinds of fuss and FUD, and he had a gentlemen's agreement to cease advertising. A year or so later, he is still going strong, still without any advertising, and seemingly without fail. I know this is no analog to Pirate's operation, but I'd like to think that it could be resolved similarly: just let it run and see what happens.

I'm sure you wish to do your duty to prevent scams, but really, I think that your bullheaded forging ahead is causing some to invest purely out of spite for your (and others') further discomfit. I think it needs to be laid to rest and put to bed, and when it fails you can say "I told you so".

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[RoloTonyBrownTown]

I agree, everyone needs to calm down. Rolo is another thread calling people mouth breathers.

If the shoe fits...

All these people harping on about pirate are the worst thing about the whole debacle.    Perhaps they're right, perhaps not,  but the words these people use and the sheer gall of the "I'm smart and you're stupid" attitude they all have is appalling.

[SimBesh]

Maybe Pirate can share with Theymos exactly what he does if Theymos agrees to an NDA.

Then he can say whether its illegal or shady and decide if the forum and by extension Mt Gox could be held to blame.

+1^∞

[Vandroiy]

If the shoe fits...

All these people harping on about pirate are the worst thing about the whole debacle.    Perhaps they're right, perhaps not,  but the words these people use and the sheer gall of the "I'm smart and you're stupid" attitude they all have is appalling.

Well, unlike Pirateat40 about me I am not saying he is stupid. I said he's an incompetent trader, but that's a different thing. I've pretty much shown it, and it's a really useful part of the argument in this case.

Pirateat40 is pretty good at what he does, and certainly not stupid. Look how he acts like he doesn't care at all, and tries to put on a facade of me having said nothing of meaning.

Leaving money with him after reading this thread, though... and all the others that point out massive problems... yeah. Sorry, that's just stupid. I could just not care, but I'm in too deep now. My reputation is unusable until this ends because I'm accused of massive slander.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I agree, everyone needs to calm down. Rolo is another thread calling people mouth breathers.

If the shoe fits...

All these people harping on about pirate are the worst thing about the whole debacle.    Perhaps they're right, perhaps not,  but the words these people use and the sheer gall of the "I'm smart and you're stupid" attitude they all have is appalling.

The other worst thing is having 50 million pirate related threads cluttering up the board. Its almost spam.

[pirateat40]

If the shoe fits...

All these people harping on about pirate are the worst thing about the whole debacle.    Perhaps they're right, perhaps not,  but the words these people use and the sheer gall of the "I'm smart and you're stupid" attitude they all have is appalling.

Well, unlike Pirateat40 about me I am not saying he is stupid. I said he's an incompetent trader, but that's a different thing. I've pretty much shown it, and it's a really useful part of the argument in this case.

Pirateat40 is pretty good at what he does, and certainly not stupid. Look how he acts like he doesn't care at all, and tries to put on a facade of me having said nothing of meaning.

Leaving money with him after reading this thread, though... and all the others that point out massive problems... yeah. Sorry, that's just stupid. I could just not care, but I'm in too deep now. My reputation is unusable until this ends because I'm accused of massive slander.

If you could only see your comments through my eyes.  Sadly, you picked the wrong battle to fight and only time will show how wrong you were.  Hey, but time heals everything so it's all good.

[sadpandatech]

If the shoe fits...

All these people harping on about pirate are the worst thing about the whole debacle.    Perhaps they're right, perhaps not,  but the words these people use and the sheer gall of the "I'm smart and you're stupid" attitude they all have is appalling.

Well, unlike Pirateat40 about me I am not saying he is stupid. I said he's an incompetent trader, but that's a different thing. I've pretty much shown it, and it's a really useful part of the argument in this case.

Pirateat40 is pretty good at what he does, and certainly not stupid. Look how he acts like he doesn't care at all, and tries to put on a facade of me having said nothing of meaning.

Leaving money with him after reading this thread, though... and all the others that point out massive problems... yeah. Sorry, that's just stupid. I could just not care, but I'm in too deep now. My reputation is unusable until this ends because I'm accused of massive slander.

If you could only see your comments through my eyes.  Sadly, you picked the wrong battle to fight and only time will show how wrong you were.  Hey, but time heals everything so it's all good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP-c2Aq47Cs

[pirateat40]

If the shoe fits...

All these people harping on about pirate are the worst thing about the whole debacle.    Perhaps they're right, perhaps not,  but the words these people use and the sheer gall of the "I'm smart and you're stupid" attitude they all have is appalling.

Well, unlike Pirateat40 about me I am not saying he is stupid. I said he's an incompetent trader, but that's a different thing. I've pretty much shown it, and it's a really useful part of the argument in this case.

Pirateat40 is pretty good at what he does, and certainly not stupid. Look how he acts like he doesn't care at all, and tries to put on a facade of me having said nothing of meaning.

Leaving money with him after reading this thread, though... and all the others that point out massive problems... yeah. Sorry, that's just stupid. I could just not care, but I'm in too deep now. My reputation is unusable until this ends because I'm accused of massive slander.

Please don't put me in the same "anything sentence" as you.

[coin_toss]

@Vandroiy

Let's say you have 135K USD right now.  I need you to buy Bitcoins without changing the Mt.Gox rate by 2%.  You have 3 days to do it, nah I'll give you 7 days.  GO!!!

Let me know how that works out for you.

Trading your tiny amounts of BTC has created a false perception of how you think this market works.  Just another reason why I don't enjoy swimming in this pool.

...

What does this mean?

• Pirateat40 pretty much implied he is trading BTCUSD with his "investors'" money in large volumes.
• He has not the faintest clue what he is talking about. There is no way he can safely operate such sums. He didn't even correct his mistake, even after it was pointed out twice!
• This is not a mistake due to sloppiness. Traders must be hardcore-trained to double-check their estimates, or else they do way too many mistakes. Any educated trader should be able to confirm that this guy is incompetent.

Now go and talk to a BTCUSD trader of your choice, so he can confirm without second thoughts that Pirateat40 is a scammer and Ponzi scheme operator, and this is the mistake that ends it.

Lets review the facts:
-pirate borrows large quantities of money from his investors
-pirate claims to use this money for 'local transactions, market arbitrage, and private loans to network members.'
-pirate does not reveal exactly how he makes money, and in return pays a high interest rate
-pirate has done this successfully for over 8 months

To the people in the anti-pirate camp, these facts somehow prove pirate is running a ponzi. They say that it is simply not possible to earn 1% a day on a large investment. The truth is, its not possible for THEM to earn 1% a day on a large investment. To someone who knows what they're doing, and has a large number of bitcoins under their control, it would be relatively simple to make 1% a day - even if all you did was trade on Mt.Gox. This isn't the NYSE, where you have countless wealthy individuals and institutional players moving into and out of stocks, and where duties of disclosure apply. This is the wild west of bitcoin, where most 'traders' are kids with a video card and where the price can fluctuate more in a day than a conventional market would in a year. And people are honestly surprised at 1% a day?

[imsaguy]

logic and crap

Go troll somewhere else, clown

[Vladimir]

To the people in the anti-pirate camp, these facts somehow prove pirate is running a ponzi. They say that it is simply not possible to earn 1% a day on a large investment. The truth is, its not possible for THEM to earn 1% a day on a large investment. To someone who knows what they're doing, and has a large number of bitcoins under their control, it would be relatively simple to make 1% a day - even if all you did was trade on Mt.Gox. This isn't the NYSE, where you have countless wealthy individuals and institutional players moving into and out of stocks, and where duties of disclosure apply. This is the wild west of bitcoin, where most 'traders' are kids with a video card and where the price can fluctuate more in a day than a conventional market would in a year. And people are honestly surprised at 1% a day?

Do you really believe in miracle of >3000%  annual returns trading some market?

Do you really believe in miracle of CONSISTENT 1% a day returns?

Do you really believe that, if this even possible, it makes any sense to leverage it by borrowing money to trade with at 3000% APR?

Have you ever traded anything?

How about a modicum of common sense?

Do you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or just want more suckers to be sucked into this for personal gain or is it something else?

[flower1024]

To the people in the anti-pirate camp, these facts somehow prove pirate is running a ponzi. They say that it is simply not possible to earn 1% a day on a large investment. The truth is, its not possible for THEM to earn 1% a day on a large investment. To someone who knows what they're doing, and has a large number of bitcoins under their control, it would be relatively simple to make 1% a day - even if all you did was trade on Mt.Gox. This isn't the NYSE, where you have countless wealthy individuals and institutional players moving into and out of stocks, and where duties of disclosure apply. This is the wild west of bitcoin, where most 'traders' are kids with a video card and where the price can fluctuate more in a day than a conventional market would in a year. And people are honestly surprised at 1% a day?

Do you really believe in miracle of >3000%  annual returns trading some market?

Do you really believe in miracle of CONSISTENT 1% a day returns?

Do you really believe that, if this even possible, it makes any sense to leverage it by borrowing money to trade with at 3000% APR?

Have you ever traded anything?

How about a modicum of common sense?

Do you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or just want more suckers to be sucked into this for personal gain or is it something else?

just see it that way:

invest your btc for 14 weeks and it has doubled (dont reinvest your interest).
regardless what happens to pirate now: you'll win at least a little.

[Vladimir]

just see it that way:

invest your btc for 14 weeks and it has doubled (dont reinvest your interest).
regardless what happens to pirate now: you'll win at least a little.

No!

Anyone with any appreciation for risk/reward of such "investment" will not put a single dime into this. Risk of complete loss of capital that is put into this now shall expect negative ROI on this "investment".

Anyone with any shred of decency or who even only tries to be ethical would not put a single penny into this.

Anyone who knows about upcoming market moving events would not put a single dime into this.

Anyone who puts his money into this now or does not pull his money out of this now (or perhaps within 1-3 week period starting now) will most likely regret this decision.

Anyone who holds any of those PPT bonds and does not sell em rather very soon will regret this decision.

Anyone who wants to shut up people speaking up about this should really disclaim his PPT/Pirate/wtc holdings.

Let's wait and see. Time will tell and this will happen rather sooner than many think it will.

Disclaimer: I own some BTC.

[flower1024]

just see it that way:

invest your btc for 14 weeks and it has doubled (dont reinvest your interest).
regardless what happens to pirate now: you'll win at least a little.

No!

Anyone with any appreciation for risk/reward of such "investment" will not put a single dime into this. Risk of complete loss of capital that is put into this now shall expect negative ROI on this "investment".

i see bitcoins as a hole as a very risky investment. pirate is a lot more risk.
whats your problem with investing in ultra-risky investments? they tend to give much more reward (if any)

Anyone with any shred of decency or who even only tries to be ethical would not put a single penny into this.

wow.
i do consider me as a very ethical person. please dont insult me (or at least: give me a reasonable explanation why do you think that i am unethical).

Anyone who knows about upcoming market moving events would not put a single dime into this.

now you tell me you know UPCOMING market moving events?
do you front-running? you can tell the future?
of course... if i would have the ability to look in the future i wouldn't invest in pirate...i would make my money otherwise

btw. if you KNOW upcoming market moving events and dont share them: this is something i would call unethical.

Anyone who puts his money into this now or does not pull his money out of this now (or perhaps within 1-3 week period starting now) will most likely regret this decision.

Anyone who holds any of those PPT bonds and does not sell em rather very soon will regret this decision.

yes, maybe thats true.
thats always a possibility with very risky investments. even with btc this is still possible (but i dont hope so)

Anyone who wants to shut up people speaking up about this should really disclaim his PPT/Pirate/wtc holdings.

we already have MORE that enough threads about this... maybe its just to much?

Let's wait and see. Time will tell and this will happen rather sooner than many think it will.

Disclaimer: I own some BTC.

i do own btc too. and i am not fully invested with pirate.

[Vladimir]

Anyone with any shred of decency or who even only tries to be ethical would not put a single penny into this.

wow.
i do consider me as a very ethical person. please dont insult me (or at least: give me a reasonable explanation why do you think that i am unethical).

This is a very reasonable request. I'll explain my position on this one.

It is very very likely that what we are talking about here is a ponzi scheme. I cannot say for certain, as there is no proof. But probabilities are damning.

Let's assume that you understand that this is likely a ponzi and wish to invest into a known ponzi scheme as a high risk/high reward investment. This is your position, is it not correct?

This means that you hope to profit at expense of victims of this ponzi scheme. At expense of naive people who are not capable to understand risks they take with such "investments" and have not received any professional advise on the matter. Nor they had those risks disclaimed to them by ponzi operators or exchanges involved in this. On each and every step of all of this there are numerous and clear violations of relevant laws.

Do you really think that in the real world thy make early ponzi investors to disgorge ill gotten profits in favor of victims because those ponzi "investments" were in any shape or form ethical?

Anyone claiming that investing in a ponzi while knowing that this is a ponzi or likelty a ponzi is in any shape of form ethical, either has a very strange idea about ethics or just plain malicious.

Ponzi is not a victimless crime. Moreover it is an indisputable fact that MOST ponzi scheme "investors" are victims (eventually).

I hope you are not going to argue that participating in and/or promoting a venture that is either a fraud or very likely a fraud (ponzi is a form of fraud) with intent to profit is Ethical.

I honestly believe that the question is not whether early ponzi investors and more so promoters and apologists like you and all those operators of PPT's and even GLBSE are acting ethically. This one is clear.

The question is more about whether early ponzi investors and more so promoters and apologists like you and all those operators of PPT's and even GLBSE itself, meaning specifcally Nefario and Bitcoin Consultancy Ltd (if they are still involved with GLBSE) are malefactors.

[flower1024]

Anyone with any shred of decency or who even only tries to be ethical would not put a single penny into this.

wow.
i do consider me as a very ethical person. please dont insult me (or at least: give me a reasonable explanation why do you think that i am unethical).

This is a very reasonable request. I'll explain my position on this one.

It is very very likely that what we are talking about here is a ponzi scheme. I cannot say for certain, as there is no proof. But probabilities are damning.

Let's assume that you understand that this is likely a ponzi and wish to invest into a known ponzi scheme as a high risk/high reward investment. This is your position, is it not correct?

This means that you hope to profit at expense of victims of this ponzi scheme. At expense of naive people who are not capable to understand risks they take with such "investments" and have not received any professional advise on the matter. Nor they had those risks disclaimed to them by ponzi operators or exchanges involved in this. On each and every step of all of this there are numerous and clear violations of relevant laws.

Do you really think that in the real world thy make early ponzi investors to disgorge ill gotten profits in favor of victims because those ponzi "investments" were in any shape or form ethical?

Anyone claiming that investing in a ponzi while knowing that this is a ponzi or likelty a ponzi is in any shape of form ethical either has a very strange idea about ethics or just plain malicious.

Ponzi is not a victimless crime. Moreover it is an indisputable fact that MOST ponzi scheme "investors" are victims (eventually).

I honestly believe that the question is not whether early ponzi investors and more so promoters and apologists like you and all those operators of PPT's and even GLBSE are acting ethically. This one is clear.

I hope you are not going to argue that participating in and/or promoting a venture that is either a fraud or very likely a fraud (ponzi is a form of fraud) with intent to profit is Ethical.

The question is more about whether early ponzi investors and more so promoters and apologists like you and all those operators of PPT's and even GLBSE are malefactors.

ok, thank you for your explanation.

but: no. i do not think its a ponzi.
i think he operates a bitcoinica like dark exchange (of course i dont know).

and yes: if i would KNOW that its a ponzi you are right that participating in it is unethically.

the question for me is: is it unethical to invest in something which you dont really now (could be firearms drugs and so on - there are things which i consider worse than ponzis).

i thought very long about it and came to the conclusion that it is ok - because you never know for sure what your invested money is used for.

with your explanation bfl and "mysterios investor who crashed glbse mining market after bfl's announcement" are unethically too -> there are ALWAYS "victims" in any finance market or transaction. one wins and another one loses: thats the hole point of risk management.

i am all for educating finance-n00bs (i see myself as one).
make good explanations: whats a ponzi, howtos about risk management and money management. but thats enough.

[ribuck]

Do you really believe in miracle of >3000%  annual returns trading some market?

Apart from the pizza-for-bitcoins market which yielded 3741% annually compounded over the following two years (or would have, if jercos had held on to his 10000 BTC).

[coin_toss]

Do you really believe in miracle of >3000%  annual returns trading some market?

Do you really believe in miracle of CONSISTENT 1% a day returns?

Do you really believe that, if this even possible, it makes any sense to leverage it by borrowing money to trade with at 3000% APR?

If you're asking me if I believe an experienced trader can consistently make 1% a day trading one of the more volatile markets in the world, when he controls perhaps the largest bitcoin wallet of them all, the answer is obviously yes.

As for borrowing money at the rate of 1% a day, clearly you would only do that if you couldn't find access to funds at a cheaper rate. If pirate could get get a cheaper rate I'm sure he would. But he can't. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but borrowing money to put into bitcoin is not exactly considered a 'safe investment' in the eyes of a bank or VC. Why do you think there have been so few bitcoin companies receiving VC funding? Who exactly would he borrow this money from, if not other bitcoiners? Perhaps you think he should be paying bitcoiners a lesser rate? You're right, he probably should be. Fortunately for his lenders, there are enough threads like this one spreading the seeds of doubt that many lenders would not accept a lesser rate. Thus the 1% continues.

Have you ever traded anything?

How about a modicum of common sense?

Do you suffer from Stockholm Syndrome or just want more suckers to be sucked into this for personal gain or is it something else?

Sorry but this is not the way to rebut an argument. Personal attacks and smear campaigns will only get you so far. If you're going to continue with these posts, sooner or later you will have to provide some EVIDENCE supporting your position. Until then, you fail.

As for your statements about ethics. Let me ask you a question. Do you honestly belive it is ethical to attempt to destroy someone's reputation and livelihood based on your 'hunch.' Further, do you honestly believe it is legal to say and do what you have done relying on the evidence you have?

[Vandroiy]

If you could only see your comments through my eyes.  Sadly, you picked the wrong battle to fight and only time will show how wrong you were.  Hey, but time heals everything so it's all good.

I can, man, and yea, I can't deny it is pretty damn hilarious. Really, sometimes feels like I'm on the wrong side. I can't even back out now, because of all the slander accusations and bet offers. I mean, lol this is at least the third time you're openly talking about this. It's a farce.

I don't get the "anything sentence" thing though.



coin_toss, imsaguy:

Yes, it might not work in court. But it's true. And your version of it is much much worse, because any real application of it means Pirateat is frequently shorting BTC with customers' money! Going deeper into these "theories" make things worse, not better.

Keep on this "exercise" for me. Last full week volume was low around 250k BTC, with overall price drifting on the order of the 2% in question. This week already saw 200k at no overall price change (using bitcoincharts weekly OHLC, http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg150zigWeeklyztgOzm1g10zm2g25zv). 20k give or take? Hell knows what the market will do, but this isn't deciding it. And in whatever case, Pirateat40 has to buy back these coins, so all he can do is a temporary delay of the price-change!

It's not just about the "exercise" content. He implicitly confirmed a theory on his business that's bullshit from the start, and now he's shown that he probably couldn't do it without losses, let alone 3300% pa! Magical arbitrage? You did not ask a trader. That or you just took the first guy with posts on the speculation forum and half his coins in BS&T.

To someone who knows what they're doing, and has a large number of bitcoins under their control, it would be relatively simple to make 1% a day - even if all you did was trade on Mt.Gox. This isn't the NYSE, where you have countless wealthy individuals and institutional players moving into and out of stocks, and where duties of disclosure apply.

Read this again. Dude, what. So everyone with lots of BTC is a colossal idiot, and traders especially? You're aware we could just add our funds together, right? Gee, thanks for telling me I'm a fucking idiot at something I've been doing effectively for years, right to my face. I missed out on a factor 6 this year already, one that was relatively simple to get? Are you serious?

You're insulting me far more than psy could with any amount of "jealous son of a bitch" shouts.

[556j]

If you're asking me if I believe an experienced trader can consistently make 1% a day trading one of the more volatile markets in the world, when he controls perhaps the largest bitcoin wallet of them all, the answer is obviously yes.

Some of us know those returns are possible. During my best I made 40% per month return for 8 months. Made a killing and haven't had to work a day since then. But the thing that makes absolutely no sense is sharing those returns with strangers. Even with a small amount invested by now if he was running anything legit he would buy back most of the investments and just keeping profits for himself. It has passed the point where the explanation of "hedging risk of volatile btc market" makes any sort of sense. As the interest payouts far exceed what would have been lost by now. When you get these types of returns you keep it private, because it won't last long, and you make a nice life for yourself. You don't payout to strangers.