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Question: Is the U.S government?
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Author Topic: Bitcoin Jesus ministry not to preach from American soil  (Read 6619 times)
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January 10, 2015, 03:51:30 PM
 #41

Because 5lb of powder is completely the same as ~50lb of powder.  Roll Eyes

I'm not really sure how much in weight he has hanging around but I would guess it's a lot more than 50lbs because we chip in and he reloads for a bunch of us. lol



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January 10, 2015, 04:22:45 PM
 #42


You do realize that many of the people using Bitcoin have something they hate about the current system of governance. They see Bitcoin as a way to take a bite out government control and put themselves in charge. The most obvious reason for that perception is because they feel they were somehow wronged by the system. Why should Ver be any different. When I was young we used M-80s to scare game away from our back yards. We could buy huge Roman candles that carried enough black powder to blow up a barn. I guess sometime in the last 30 years or so the American people got too stupid to be allowed to use fireworks safely. That's funny because I read a report that firework accidents causing house fires have continuously gone up over the last 30 years even though fireworks are less potent and better regulated. I don't see Ver as being a real threat to this stupid country. I just don't see him entering the country to compete with Indian reservations by selling illegal fireworks. I can only imagine that if you knew the full bio on a lot of the Bitcoin supporters you would probably run for the hills.

The U.S. Government acts like the biggest kid on the block. He's a bully that's used to getting his own way and steals your lunch money. When he doesn't get his way because someone stands up to him he holds a grudge and causes as much trouble as he can. Someone needs to report the USG to the teacher because he needs a good spanking.



Of course, that is why I am involved.  Just because I am dissatisfied with parts of the system does not mean the solution is some kind of ridiculous fantasy anarcho-whatever system that would have everyone living in caves.

As for the "US Government" it is a collection of different agencies and branches all with their own missions and interests.  Only delusion wing nuts group lump them together into one entity and they are voted in by the populace anyway.

Bitcoin is a tool that will force the hands of certain regulatory and commercial entities but it isn't going to end wars or collapse governments.   The only people who think that way are a few dumb kids who have not experienced the world and a few older mentally ill people like Roger Ver who don't learn anything from their life experiences.

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January 10, 2015, 04:23:15 PM
 #43

IMO it's not selling them, it's the storage in apartment building he completely deserved slap upside the head for.

Millions of people store ammunition in paper boxes all over the country. I have a friend that reloads his own rounds. He has a half gallon milk carton like container full of black powder that he pours powder out of into his reloader. He lives in a TIC (like an apartment) with four other families and stores it in his closet. What he's doing is perfectly legal.

Loaded ammo doesn't have a fuse sticking out of it, and the container is quite durable.  Rounds can cook off in a fire though.  Nitrocellulose and black power are also a different beast than some explosives.  They burn more than explode (much less detonate) when not confined, though they burn pretty quickly.  The primer material is a different matter.

I'm a staunch believer in the 2nd, but if you have goobers living in multi-family units and having things like half gallon milk cartons full of black powder kicking around that's is, unhappily, a fairly good reason for Big Brother to be regulating.  There are many hobbies and businesses which one should probably defer on until one has their own place.  Alternately, if one gets a thumbs-up from all of the folks who live in the same building, I'm cool with that.


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January 10, 2015, 04:50:54 PM
 #44


You do realize that many of the people using Bitcoin have something they hate about the current system of governance. They see Bitcoin as a way to take a bite out government control and put themselves in charge. The most obvious reason for that perception is because they feel they were somehow wronged by the system. Why should Ver be any different. When I was young we used M-80s to scare game away from our back yards. We could buy huge Roman candles that carried enough black powder to blow up a barn. I guess sometime in the last 30 years or so the American people got too stupid to be allowed to use fireworks safely. That's funny because I read a report that firework accidents causing house fires have continuously gone up over the last 30 years even though fireworks are less potent and better regulated. I don't see Ver as being a real threat to this stupid country. I just don't see him entering the country to compete with Indian reservations by selling illegal fireworks. I can only imagine that if you knew the full bio on a lot of the Bitcoin supporters you would probably run for the hills.

The U.S. Government acts like the biggest kid on the block. He's a bully that's used to getting his own way and steals your lunch money. When he doesn't get his way because someone stands up to him he holds a grudge and causes as much trouble as he can. Someone needs to report the USG to the teacher because he needs a good spanking.



Of course, that is why I am involved.  Just because I am dissatisfied with parts of the system does not mean the solution is some kind of ridiculous fantasy anarcho-whatever system that would have everyone living in caves.

As for the "US Government" it is a collection of different agencies and branches all with their own missions and interests.  Only delusion wing nuts group lump them together into one entity and they are voted in by the populace anyway.

Bitcoin is a tool that will force the hands of certain regulatory and commercial entities but it isn't going to end wars or collapse governments.   The only people who think that way are a few dumb kids who have not experienced the world and a few older mentally ill people like Roger Ver who don't learn anything from their life experiences.

Anyone that makes a mistake in life should be ostracized? You have a pretty authoritarian view of the world for a Bitcoiner.

Oh, and you can lump control of all U. S. Government agencies together. When we do that we call it Congress. lol

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January 10, 2015, 05:03:08 PM
 #45

IMO it's not selling them, it's the storage in apartment building he completely deserved slap upside the head for.

Millions of people store ammunition in paper boxes all over the country. I have a friend that reloads his own rounds. He has a half gallon milk carton like container full of black powder that he pours powder out of into his reloader. He lives in a TIC (like an apartment) with four other families and stores it in his closet. What he's doing is perfectly legal.

Loaded ammo doesn't have a fuse sticking out of it, and the container is quite durable.  Rounds can cook off in a fire though.  Nitrocellulose and black power are also a different beast than some explosives.  They burn more than explode (much less detonate) when not confined, though they burn pretty quickly.  The primer material is a different matter.

I'm a staunch believer in the 2nd, but if you have goobers living in multi-family units and having things like half gallon milk cartons full of black powder kicking around that's is, unhappily, a fairly good reason for Big Brother to be regulating.  There are many hobbies and businesses which one should probably defer on until one has their own place.  Alternately, if one gets a thumbs-up from all of the folks who live in the same building, I'm cool with that.


I guess either one is kind of dumb. Explosives of all types should probably be regulated and kept under the control of a power greater than the individual. Warriors controlled by the collective and dedicated to an end game need that control. Although, it's the end game that makes me want to keep some personal control over them but I see your point. It's not like public controlled utilities like PG&E ever blow up entire city blocks or C-4 ever ends up missing because some soldier steals it.

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January 10, 2015, 05:07:12 PM
 #46

Have you all seen this: http://www.coindesk.com/roger-ver-denied-us-visa-attend-miami-bitcoin-conference/

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

It's because he renounced his citizenship. He has a criminal record, it's next to impossible to get a US travel visa with a criminal record. Also because he was once a US citizenship and has many ties to the US such as family, there is a chance he may decide not to return once his travel visa expires and stay as an illegal immigrant in the US. This is why he's being denied, nothing to do with Bitcoin AFAICT.

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January 10, 2015, 05:19:17 PM
 #47

Have you all seen this: http://www.coindesk.com/roger-ver-denied-us-visa-attend-miami-bitcoin-conference/

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

It's because he renounced his citizenship. He has a criminal record, it's next to impossible to get a US travel visa with a criminal record. Also because he was once a US citizenship and has many ties to the US such as family, there is a chance he may decide not to return once his travel visa expires and stay as an illegal immigrant in the US. This is why he's being denied, nothing to do with Bitcoin AFAICT.

I guess your right but if he violates the terms of his visa can't they just expel him? Or are they afraid that the ridiculous system of monitoring imposed on the people over the past few decades won't be enough to find him? Can't they just pick him up when he hops out of the forest like a scared deer to visit this family that he is here to be around? The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

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January 10, 2015, 05:22:15 PM
 #48

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?


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January 10, 2015, 05:26:23 PM
 #49

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

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January 10, 2015, 05:26:57 PM
 #50

I guess your right but if he violates the terms of his visa can't they just expel him? Or are they afraid that the ridiculous system of monitoring imposed on the people over the past few decades won't be enough to find him. Can't they just pick him up when he hops out of the forest like a scared deer to visit this family that he is here to be around? The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

It's just easier and cheaper to refuse entry to risky people than to go chasing them down across the country when they run off. It sucks big time, but the US aren't the only ones who have these crazy immigration laws, although they do enforce them very strictly.

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January 10, 2015, 05:33:56 PM
 #51

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.


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January 10, 2015, 05:36:46 PM
 #52

I guess your right but if he violates the terms of his visa can't they just expel him? Or are they afraid that the ridiculous system of monitoring imposed on the people over the past few decades won't be enough to find him. Can't they just pick him up when he hops out of the forest like a scared deer to visit this family that he is here to be around? The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

It's just easier and cheaper to refuse entry to risky people than to go chasing them down across the country when they run off. It sucks big time, but the US aren't the only ones who have these crazy immigration laws, although they do enforce them very strictly.

That, I'm sure, would be their argument. I would counter by saying that the difficulty or expense would be greatly reduced by the fact that this guy has been all over the media for at least five years and wouldn't be that hard to find. I think a every media outlet in the country would run the story and he would be found in a day. They could close his business and confiscate MemoryDealers in San Jose as a repayment for his debt to this poor nation who had to suffer through the ordeal of having a businessman running free (I couldn't even type that without laughing). You're right though, America enforces everything around the world "very strictly"

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January 10, 2015, 05:38:13 PM
 #53

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

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January 10, 2015, 05:40:41 PM
 #54

The other way hostile to current administration media interests could spin this story, if he was allowed in, would be "Self radicalised foreign citizen with explosives convictions allowed entry." Which is rather contrary to the script of the current security theatre production.

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January 10, 2015, 05:43:16 PM
 #55

The other way hostile to current administration media interests could spin this story, if he was allowed in, would be "Self radicalised foreign citizen with explosives convictions allowed entry." Which is rather contrary to the script of the current security theatre production.

ROLF

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January 10, 2015, 07:22:05 PM
 #56

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore?

It's because he clearly and admittedly renounced his citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes. That bolded part is important. We don't need any conspiracy theories here, it's been U.S. policy for many years that if you renounce your citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes you are not to be admitted back into the country. Eduardo Saverin (co-founder of Facebook) is likely in the same boat, since he also clearly renounced his citizenship to avoid taxes.

Of course, it could also have something to do with the fact that Ver was convicted of selling explosives on eBay, that's something I'd think most governments (not just the U.S.) wouldn't take too lightly.. but no, let's forget about any plausible explanations based on long-standing U.S. laws and policies and just assume it's a conspiracy against Bitcoin.

Correct.

The expert says:

http://www.nestmann.com/the-real-reasons-americans-give-up-their-us-citizenship

Quote
In 2012, and again in 2013, Senators Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Bob Casey (D-PA) introduced legislation that would retroactively punish wealthy expatriates like Saverin. Under their most recent proposal, expatriates with a net worth exceeding $2 million, or with an average income tax liability exceeding $155,000 for the five years preceding expatriation, would be presumed to have given up US citizenship for tax avoidance purposes. If they couldn't prove otherwise to the IRS, they would be permanently barred from ever coming back to the US – even as visitors.

Such “covered” expatriates would also face a 30% percent tax on future gains from US investments, no matter where they live. In contrast, all other non-US citizens who invest in the US enjoy substantial tax advantages.

And get this… both the tax and re-entry provisions are retroactive for anyone who expatriated during the 10-year period prior to the time the law comes into effect.

I’m not aware of any effort by Schumer or Casey to introduce similar legislation in 2014. But, of course, we still have nine months to go.


http://www.nestmann.com/getting-out-is-hard-getting-back-in-is-harder

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If you enter the USA with a foreign passport that shows that you were born in the USA, you’ll receive even greater scrutiny.

My friend and colleague P.T. Freeman, who gave up his US citizenship more than a decade ago, was intensively questioned on his most recent entry into the USA.

The first official he spoke to noticed that his foreign passport showed US heritage. The official—whom he actually knew from previous visits— informed P.T. that he needed to use his US passport to enter the USA. P.T. told the official that he had given up his US citizenship, along with the right to use a US passport, many years ago.

The official informed him that a directive sent out to border officials last month set out a new policy for anyone entering the USA with a passport showing a US birthplace. That policy requires that anyone entering the USA with this status automatically be diverted to secondary inspection.

As I’ve written previously, it’s becoming much more difficult for everyone—especially former US citizens—to obtain a visitor’s visa to the USA.


http://www.nestmann.com/former-u-s-citizens-face-discrimination-returning-usa

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Non-resident aliens (NRAs) with previous U.S. nationality or permanent residence once were treated virtually the same as other NRAs for purposes of entry or re-entry to the United States.

This status began to change in 1996, when Congress enacted the Reed Amendment to the Immigration & Nationality Act. The amendment gives the U.S. Attorney General the discretion to deny re-entry into the United States to a former U.S. citizen who renounced U.S. citizenship in order to avoid U.S. taxation. Exclusion is limited to former U.S. citizens and doesn't include former Green Card holders. (The Attorney General’s authority transferred to the Secretary of Homeland Security under the Homeland Security Act of 2002.)

While the authority of the Reed Amendment has never officially been issued, some U.S. consular officials have denied visa applications from former U.S. citizens, apparently using the Reed amendment as an excuse. This is despite the fact that according to the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual,

"The Department of Homeland Security has not published implementing regulations on INA 212(a)(10)(E) (8 U.S.C. 1182), so no procedures implementing this law are currently in effect."

Then, only a few weeks ago, Senators Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Bob Casey (D-Pa.) introduced legislation (The "Ex-PATRIOT Act") that would permanently bar "covered expatriates" from ever returning to the United States. What's more, the law would be retroactive to anyone expatriating up to ten years prior to its enactment. However, in common with the Reed Amendment, it would apply only to former U.S. citizens—not to former green card holders.

Fortunately, the Ex-PATRIOT Act hasn't been enacted. But even without it, I've recently learned of a few examples where former U.S. citizens have been denied a re-entry visa to the United States. Visa denial hasn't been based on the Reed Amendment or any other tax or wealth-related justification. Instead, it's been based on section 214(b) of the Immigration & Nationality Act. In visa denials under this provision, the applicant:

"…did not overcome the presumption of immigrant intent, required by law, by sufficiently demonstrating that you have strong ties to your home country that will compel you to leave the United States at the end of your temporary stay."

In one case, the applicant had very strong ties to his adopted country, and could prove it. However, he didn't bring sufficient evidence of these ties to his visa interview, and thus was denied re-entry. Returning a few days later with a residence permit, driver's license, employment contract, rental contract, etc., he succeeded in obtaining a visitor's visa.

Therefore, if you expatriate and want to return to the United States to visit, bring as much evidence as possible to prove you're completely bound to your new country of residence. Increasingly, other countries—especially in the European Union—are demanding similar proof of permanent ties to another country before granting visitor's visas.

Perhaps you dream of "living nowhere" as a "perpetual traveler" with no ties to any country. That strategy won't work if you need to apply for visitor's visas from most countries. It can work, at least to some extent, if you have a passport that provides visa-free entry to the countries to which you wish to travel. That way, you avoid needing to apply for a visitor's visa. For instance, if you want to travel visa-free to the United States, then you should get a passport from one of the countries on this list. Unfortunately, none of these passports are easy to acquire.

The bottom line is that if you expatriate from the United States,  be mentally prepared never to return. Current policy merely makes it difficult to qualify for a visitor's visa, but legislation now before Congress may place you in permanent exile.


http://www.nestmann.com/why-uncle-sam-wants-these-citizenship-programs-shut-down

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In November 2014, Canada imposed visa requirements on citizens of St. Kitts & Nevis. It cited “identity management practices within its Citizenship by Investment program” as the reason for ending visa-free travel to Canada by St. Kitts & Nevis passport holders.

The announcement didn’t describe the “identity management practices” with which it was concerned, but it seems safe to assume that one practice that Canada deemed objectionable was that, since 2012, St. Kitts & Nevis has issued passports that don’t display the passport-holder’s place of birth. Nor do the passports show any legal name changes.

That seems a safe assumption, because only days after Canada imposed visa restrictions, the St. Kitts & Nevis government recalled all passports issued between January 2012 and July 2014. The passports will be reissued to add the place of birth of the passport holder and to list any name changes on the observation page. After January 31, 2015, the old passports will be invalid.


http://www.nestmann.com/heres-one-fight-uncle-sam-cant-win

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On May 20, FinCEN issued an “Advisory” that warned banks worldwide to apply special scrutiny to individuals identifying themselves as citizens of St. Kitts & Nevis.

Apparently, FinCEN doesn’t believe that St. Kitts & Nevis is trying hard enough to exclude Iranians from its economic citizenship program. And there’s more than just a hint of hypocrisy in that position. At least one other entrant in the economic citizenship market – Antigua – has no outright prohibition against Iranian applicants.


http://www.nestmann.com/second-passports-does-uncle-sam-need-to-know

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Having a second passport and citizenship is not a reason to panic when it comes time to renew your US passport. Nothing changes, really, except for the fact that you need to include the sworn affidavit with your US passport renewal application. You do not even need to come face to face with a State Department official unless you do not qualify to renew by mail.

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January 10, 2015, 07:40:39 PM
 #57

Well, I guess that's the reason. What a frightened little bunny rabbit America has become. I wonder if he illegally entered the country and agreed to pick some lettuce and spinach if they would let him stay for the summer. lol


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January 10, 2015, 09:08:23 PM
 #58

You could always jump off the ship or plane into the ocean and swim ashore, and pick things up from there.

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January 10, 2015, 09:14:25 PM
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You could always jump off the ship or plane into the ocean and swim ashore, and pick things up from there.

 Cheesy

It's not even that difficult. Now he knows to go to TJ first and hire a coyote. He just needs to learn one phrase in Spanish: estoy aquí sólo para recoger lechuga

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January 10, 2015, 09:19:55 PM
 #60

I agree this country has some idiots in leadership roles, but he was denied just cause he renounced his citizenship.

He would of had a better chance on just sneaking in instead of apply for a visa.

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