Bitcoin Jesus ministry not to preach from American soil

[QuestionAuthority]

Have you all seen this: http://www.coindesk.com/roger-ver-denied-us-visa-attend-miami-bitcoin-conference/

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

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[BitCoinNutJob]

Its pretty messed up, no free speech in USA if its bitcoin.  If its renounced citizenship they shouldnt be taxing him anymore.

[Frijj]

If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

I've read some horror stories online before of people being treated like shit once they renounced their citizenship, though maybe ha has some other connections they don't like?

[Flashman]

It would not surprise me actually if it was being convicted of a crime that was causing his visa refusal. I have known people refused entry to US at age 50+ because of a charge for shoplifting at 18. When you're a US citizen, they have to come up with a lot more to refuse to let you back in, but if you're not, they don't need much.

[RixDollar]

What a pathetic and ridiculous decision.

[QuestionAuthority]

It would not surprise me actually if it was being convicted of a crime that was causing his visa refusal. I have known people refused entry to US at age 50+ because of a charge for shoplifting at 18. When you're a US citizen, they have to come up with a lot more to refuse to let you back in, but if you're not, they don't need much.

Dude, I got in a taxi the other day that I'm pretty sure was being driven by Osama Bin Laden. They will let anyone into this country and then give them an SBA loan. There's something else going on here and I think it's Bitcoin.

[QuestionAuthority]

Really? Seriously? Someone voted "I love em"!

Explain yourself Satan worshiper.

[pedrog]

LOL

Got be careful with them illegal immigrants.

[leopard2]

hilarious; he should just stop paying US taxes; if he is not able to enter the US, he will not get in hot water for that. 

[bitkilo]

I had a American friend here in Australia and he was not even aloud to go back and visit his sick mother before she died due to the fact he got caught growing a small bit of weed here.
He was left a man without a country he used to say.

[bitcoinarnold]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

[pedrog]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

Indeed...

[QuestionAuthority]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

If the U.S. blocked all idiots from being in the country there wouldn't be a government.

[stevenh512]

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore?

It's because he clearly and admittedly renounced his citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes. That bolded part is important. We don't need any conspiracy theories here, it's been U.S. policy for many years that if you renounce your citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes you are not to be admitted back into the country. Eduardo Saverin (co-founder of Facebook) is likely in the same boat, since he also clearly renounced his citizenship to avoid taxes.

Of course, it could also have something to do with the fact that Ver was convicted of selling explosives on eBay, that's something I'd think most governments (not just the U.S.) wouldn't take too lightly.. but no, let's forget about any plausible explanations based on long-standing U.S. laws and policies and just assume it's a conspiracy against Bitcoin.

[QuestionAuthority]

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore?

It's because he clearly and admittedly renounced his citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes. That bolded part is important. We don't need any conspiracy theories here, it's been U.S. policy for many years that if you renounce your citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes you are not to be admitted back into the country. Eduardo Saverin (co-founder of Facebook) is likely in the same boat, since he also clearly renounced his citizenship to avoid taxes.

Of course, it could also have something to do with the fact that Ver was convicted of selling explosives on eBay, that's something I'd think most governments (not just the U.S.) wouldn't take too lightly.. but no, let's forget about any plausible explanations based on long-standing U.S. laws and policies and just assume it's a conspiracy against Bitcoin.

But he owns MemoryDealers in Silicon Valley. How can he avoid paying taxes with a business based in San Jose? He still pays taxes.

[botany]

hilarious; he should just stop paying US taxes; if he is not able to enter the US, he will not get in hot water for that. 

If he renounced his citizenship, does he have to pay taxes?

[BADecker]

Have you all seen this: http://www.coindesk.com/roger-ver-denied-us-visa-attend-miami-bitcoin-conference/

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

When you look at the laws regarding citizenship in the United States, you are only a citizen if one of three things fits your circumstances. These are:
1. You were born in the United States;
2. You were naturalized;
3. You said you are a citizen but you lied, and government accepted your lie.

That's about it. Maybe none of us are citizens. Maybe not even residents. Certainly not in our capacities as human beings. Maybe we as humans are only domiciled here.

There is question as to whether or not you were born in the United States, even if you were. Why? Simply because there are several definitions of the term "United States." The term is ambiguous, and you probably didn't understand - and don't understand now - the legalease (legal meanings of) regarding which "United States" you were talking about when you renounced your citizenship. Ambiguity is not allowed in law. Besides this, the definition that you would fall under when you were born is not the definition that applies to you when you are entering the country, and it is not the definition that you renounced when you renounced your citizenship.

In other words, when you present a passport or other documentation to port authorities, and they say, "This looks like you." And then they ask you, "Is this you?" What is your answer? You say, "Yes, it's me." What you have just done is turned yourself into a piece of paper, a passport, or some other documentation. And, since you are still a human being, the word "you" when they ask, "Is this you," is plural, meaning both you, the human, and you, the documentation.

Your answer should have been, "That is not me. I am a man/woman. As a man/woman born in the United States, I claim right of entry." Then, if they don't let you enter, you can file suit on the individual in his/her private capacity, who wouldn't let you enter.

Take a look at the info in the links listed at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=916456.msg10079836#msg10079836, and see that government's determination of illegality about anything doesn't apply to you except if you are in government, or if you want it to. It becomes applicable to you when you say, "Yes, that's me," regarding some government documentation.

In particular, watch the 10 videos at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkAHRzuiOA&list=PLHrkQxgz0mg6kUBciD-HIvTXByqjcIZ-D.

[Flashman]

Many other civilised countries have income tax laws to the effect that, if you are resident there 6 months and a day, then you owe income tax there. Less than that period may apply if you have been in their country fewer than 6 months, but not as long in any other one country, and maintain what appears to be a principal residence there. This standard even applies to citizens such that, should they be resident abroad for 6+ months, they are not resident in country of citizenship and only owe income tax locally.

The US however, takes the view that US citizen income is taxable wherever the citizen is resident. i.e. income taxed by host country, then again by US. Further, in order to prevent "tax abuse" the US has forced agreements upon major nations to fully report banking activities and amounts of all US citizens to IRS. This is so onerous a requirement that no foreign banks want to do business with anyone they might suspect of being a US citizen. Anyway, upshot of all this, is that many US citizens who have settled elsewhere and have expectations of remaining there, are wanting to revoke citizenship. US calls this "for tax evasion" purposes, no shit, who wants to be double taxed, and have raised renunciation fees to something astronomical in recent months.

The weird thing is, that officially, you cannot have dual citizenship with the US, it's not permitted to hold any other citizenship and be a US citizen. This should mean that if you acquire citizenship of another country, you should automatically not be a US citizen... in fact, if you are a citizen in a country, say you take Bulgarian citizenship (No connotation implied) and you fall afoul of their justice system, get framed by corrupt officials, whatever, and go to US Embassy/Consulate for help, they will tell you tough shit, you're a citizen there, so they can't help.... meanwhile IRS regards you as fully fledged US citizen and will still want income tax!

Anyway, the most tenacious tentacle of US citizenship appears to be the IRS, they grab and hold and are with you wherever, no matter what other residence or citizenship you take up. So to hack that off, you have to do the $$$$ renunciation, even if, by all laws and statutes you invalidated your US citizenship already... then of course, since that is the final connection it's automatically "For tax evasion"  

edit: dammit, not tenuous, tenacious, that's the word...

[QuestionAuthority]

The last two responses were stellar. You each win a gold star.

[Gumbork]

poor btc jesus.

[HELP.org]

I think Ver should go France this week along with Vorhees and Theymos.  They can set up public discussion explaining how the government agents who are tracking the terrorists are really the violent ones.  Then Theymos can start crying about how money laundering laws are immoral.  Then put the whole thing on youtube and see what people think.

[jbreher]

I think Ver should go France this week along with Vorhees and Theymos.  They can set up public discussion explaining how the government agents who are tracking the terrorists are really the violent ones.  Then Theymos can start crying about how money laundering laws are immoral.  Then put the whole thing on youtube and see what people think.

Well, seeing as you put this on BCT for the whole world to see, I can tell you what I think.

I think that you equating anything Ver, Vorhees, or Theymos may have done with violent murder is absolutely repugnant.

[QuestionAuthority]

I think Ver should go France this week along with Vorhees and Theymos.  They can set up public discussion explaining how the government agents who are tracking the terrorists are really the violent ones.  Then Theymos can start crying about how money laundering laws are immoral.  Then put the whole thing on youtube and see what people think.

Wow, that's wrong on so many levels. If you hate theymos so bad that you have to bitch about him constantly then why do you hang out on his forum?

[HELP.org]

I think Ver should go France this week along with Vorhees and Theymos.  They can set up public discussion explaining how the government agents who are tracking the terrorists are really the violent ones.  Then Theymos can start crying about how money laundering laws are immoral.  Then put the whole thing on youtube and see what people think.

Well, seeing as you put this on BCT for the whole world to see, I can tell you what I think.

I think that you equating anything Ver, Vorhees, or Theymos may have done with violent murder is absolutely repugnant.

When I first got involved in Bitcoin I listened to the coverage of the first big conference by Free State radio.  They ran an announcement several times throughout the conference where they claim all government employees were murderers.  In other words, janitors, social security clerks, astronauts, etc. ... all "murderers."  

Ver is the one who equates the agents at WACO and the ones who took down Silk Road as "the violent ones" and "murderers."  

theymos always presents his chidish arguments that money laudering laws are immoral so what is wrong with presenting that idea to the French public?

[dKingston]

it's because Ver is contributing to Ulbricht's defense fund

gotta admit .. I respect Roger Ver

[HELP.org]

I think Ver should go France this week along with Vorhees and Theymos.  They can set up public discussion explaining how the government agents who are tracking the terrorists are really the violent ones.  Then Theymos can start crying about how money laundering laws are immoral.  Then put the whole thing on youtube and see what people think.

Wow, that's wrong on so many levels. If you hate theymos so bad that you have to bitch about him constantly then why do you hang out on his forum?

What are you saying?  Ver, Vorhees and Theymos are wrong on so many levels?  What levels are those?  I just think Theymos should present his agenda to the French public so we can see what they think.  I didn't present an opinion, I am just repeating theymos' agenda.  Is there something wrong with it?

[HELP.org]

it's because Ver is contributing to Ulbricht's defense fund

gotta admit .. I respect Roger Ver

It is more likely due to the combination of renouncing citizenship. running an offshore tax shelter business, and keeping citizenship in 2 different countries. 

As for Ulbricht, Ver had his Mother make those video so he could promote his agenda.  She is going through probably the worst time of her life and she has to put up with being used by some agenda-pusher like Ver to try to get funds for the legal defense.

[jbreher]

When I first got involved in Bitcoin I listened to the coverage of the first big conference by Free State radio.  They ran an announcement several times throughout the conference where they claim all government employees were murderers.  In other words, janitors, social security clerks, astronauts, etc. ... all "murderers."  

It's a stretch. But isn't that just what you've done? Equated your 'unholy trinity' to murderers?

Ver is the one who equates the agents at WACO and the ones who took down Silk Road as "the violent ones" and "murderers."

If Ulbricht is the victim of a disinfo campaign about the hits -- a possibility which I believe plausible, if not necessarily probable -- then I would wholeheartedly agree with Ver's alleged characterization.

I'll assume you've never bothered to dig any deeper than the MSM accounts of the Waco incident? View "Waco: A New Revelation" then get back to the discussion. Protip: the victors get to write the "official" "history". Fun fact for today: Lon Horiuchi - the very butcher who senselessly murdered Vicki Weaver while she held her baby in her arms, was on scene coordinating the snipers during the last moments of conflagration at Waco.

theymos always presents his chidish arguments that money laudering laws are immoral so what is wrong with presenting that idea to the French public?

Childish? 'Money laundering' is a silly made up 'crime'. Protip2: If a single incident of a so-called 'crime' does not result in at least one single identifiable direct victim, then there are many who would agree that such a thing is not actually a crime at all. I mean - sure - I abide by such stupid laws. But only from a desire not to be thrown in a cage by scary people with guns.

[CloakT]

I wonder if he got a refund for his ticket

[HELP.org]

When I first got involved in Bitcoin I listened to the coverage of the first big conference by Free State radio.  They ran an announcement several times throughout the conference where they claim all government employees were murderers.  In other words, janitors, social security clerks, astronauts, etc. ... all "murderers."  

It's a stretch. But isn't that just what you've done?

Ver is the one who equates the agents at WACO and the ones who took down Silk Road as "the violent ones" and "murderers."

If Ulbricht is the victim of a disinfo campaign about the hits -- a possibility which I believe plausible, if not necessarily probable -- then I would wholeheartedly agree with Ver's alleged characterization.

I'll assume you've never bothered to dig any deeper than the MSM accounts of the Waco incident? View "Waco: A New Revelation" then get back to the discussion. Protip: the victors get to write the "official" "history". Fun fact for today: Lon Horiuchi - the very butcher who senselessly murdered Vicki Weaver while she held her baby in her arms, was on scene coordinating the snipers during the last moments of conflagration at Waco.

theymos always presents his chidish arguments that money laudering laws are immoral so what is wrong with presenting that idea to the French public?

Childish? 'Money laundering' is a silly made up 'crime'. Protip2: If a single incident of a so-called 'crime' does not result in at least one single identifiable direct victim, then there are many who would agree that such a thing is not actually a crime at all. I mean - sure - I abide by such stupid laws. But only from a desire not to be thrown in a cage by scary people with guns.

I didn't do anything except suggest Theymos present his agenda to the French public.  It is your perception of that suggestion that seems to be the problem.  Maybe you know there is something wrong with your ideas and you are reacting in this way?  As someone else pointed out, take your ideas to your friends, family, and strangers on the street and see how that pans out. 

As for Ross Ulbricht, irrespective of the murder for hire issues, do you know anyone addicted to Xanax or heroin?  Do you know how these drugs work?

As for money laundering, there are large numbers of criminals who have laundered money in order to engage in terrorism, human trafficking, etc.  Those are the victims you say don't exist.

Welcome to the real world and adulthood.

https://blog.caseykuhlman.com/entries/2014/bitcoin-somaliland.html

[siameze]

theymos always presents his chidish arguments that money laudering laws are immoral so what is wrong with presenting that idea to the French public?

Childish? 'Money laundering' is a silly made up 'crime'. Protip2: If a single incident of a so-called 'crime' does not result in at least one single identifiable direct victim, then there are many who would agree that such a thing is not actually a crime at all. I mean - sure - I abide by such stupid laws. But only from a desire not to be thrown in a cage by scary people with guns.

Criminals will always find ways to move money, and if there is a law then there are people that will find ways to circumvent them. Nothing new there.

[jbreher]

I didn't do anything except suggest Theymos present his agenda to the French public.  It is your perception of that suggestion that seems to be the problem.  Maybe you know there is something wrong with your ideas and you are reacting in this way?  As someone else pointed out, take your ideas to your friends, family, and strangers on the street and see how that pans out. 

Hmmm. I had the impression you were equating them with the murderers. Internet communications, I guess. But why do you think he might have anything germane to discuss with them?

And it is a conversation I have been having for decades. But thanks for your suggestion.

As for Ross Ulbricht, irrespective of the murder for hire issues, do you know anyone addicted to Xanax or heroin?  Do you know how these drugs work?

I see. For creating a venue in which willing buyers can trade with willing sellers, he should fry. Do I have that right?

Are you suggesting that had it not been for Ulbricht, such addicts would be free of their affliction?

And regardless of whether you say yes or no to the previous question - from whence do you derive the authority to determine what another person is free to ingest into their own body? Do you believe your claim upon their bodies supersedes their own?

Incidentally, I know little to nothing about Xanax. I do know something about heroin, however. Yes, I know one person that has been addicted to heroin for decades, others who have been addicted and quit, others that have used with no descent into addiction, and other occasional current users who seem to be free of addiction. Do you know anyone addicted to alcohol? What's your point?

Skipping completely around the Waco massacre noted....

As for money laundering, there are large numbers of criminals who have laundered money in order to engage in terrorism, human trafficking, etc.  Those are the victims you say don't exist.

Non sequitur is non sequitur. You're telling me that the act of exchanging units of money for other units of money has victims? That's just stupid. The act of terrorism has victims. The exchange of money does not.

Welcome to the real world and adulthood.

Now *that's* a mature comment.

https://blog.caseykuhlman.com/entries/2014/bitcoin-somaliland.html

You look into Waco: A New Revelation, provide evidence that you've done so, and then I'll read your blog. Deal?
I'll make it easy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9pQ1pIbiU

[HELP.org]

You look into Waco: A New Revelation, provide evidence that you've done so, and then I'll read your blog. Deal?
I'll make it easy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9pQ1pIbiU

Very interesting, Fred Whitehurst.  I met him several times when I worked for the FAA.  I did research on explosives and weapons detection systems (my background is in physics) and the FBI would look at our tests because they would use some of the same equipment as the FAA (This was before Homeland security existed).  Whitehurst was an FBI agent and worked in the crime lab and he knew a lot about detecting explosives.  He would go on dangerous missions and he had stories about how he was in war-torn countries would fake a flat tire so he could rub up against a suspect car bomb vehicle and take his clothes back to lab to check for residue. 

He used to uncover a bunch of improprieties at the FBI lab and complain about them.  He eventually got into a big dispute with the FBI and spent several years going to law school at night.  He got a law degree, quit, and sued the FBI and got a big settlement.

The government is full of screw-ups and people trying to cover their ass but the stupid "anarchy" stuff is no solution of any sort.  it is just a childish reaction to the normal human problem you see in any system. 

Since Whitehurst was and FBI agent people like Ver and the Free State Project call him a "murderer" too.  Don't you see how ridiculous those people are and how stupid they make Bitcoin look?

[tvbcof]

...
Of course, it could also have something to do with the fact that Ver was convicted of selling explosives on eBay, that's something I'd think most governments (not just the U.S.) wouldn't take too lightly.. but no, let's forget about any plausible explanations based on long-standing U.S. laws and policies and just assume it's a conspiracy against Bitcoin.

They were M-80 firecracker like things.  Likely they would peel the flesh off one's hand.  Probably if fun toys like that were still easily available there would be somewhat more injuries, but also somewhat more wisdom as well...for those who made it through adolescence at least.  After all there are still a lot of ways to hurt oneself which are perfectly legal yet.

I've got relatively little against the guy for selling the things on e-bay.  Storing 50 lbs of them in one's residential apartment, however, is a whole different kettle of fish.  10 months in the pokey for it might be about right for that.  There is a huge difference between knowingly buying something like an M-80 and unknowingly getting your face blown off if the idiot upstairs has a box of explosives in his closet right over your bed.

[Kluge]

"While engaging in the business of selling explosive devices, Mr. Ver stored the explosives in a residential apartment building and mailed the devices via the United States Mail..."

I probably shouldn't get a big grin reading that...

PCR2000 was actually a significant thing. There were quite a few dealers, many professional B&Ms with mail-order. ... That probably shouldn't have weakened my original grin.

[HELP.org]

"While engaging in the business of selling explosive devices, Mr. Ver stored the explosives in a residential apartment building and mailed the devices via the United States Mail..."

I probably shouldn't get a big grin reading that...

PCR2000 was actually a significant thing. There were quite a few dealers, many professional B&Ms with mail-order. ... That probably shouldn't have weakened my original grin.

Interesting.  It looks like many of the statements floating around from people like Rassah are false.  They claim Ver was the only person to serve a jail sentence.  But look here, another guy got 6 years for the same thing:

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/2004/Indiana-Businessman-Sentenced-to-Over-Six-Years-in-Federal-Prison-for-Illegally-Selling-Professional-Fireworks-To-Consumers/

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/2003/Missouri-Company-Ordered-To-Stop-Manufacturing-and-Selling-Illegal-Fireworks/

[QuestionAuthority]

"While engaging in the business of selling explosive devices, Mr. Ver stored the explosives in a residential apartment building and mailed the devices via the United States Mail..."

I probably shouldn't get a big grin reading that...

PCR2000 was actually a significant thing. There were quite a few dealers, many professional B&Ms with mail-order. ... That probably shouldn't have weakened my original grin.

Interesting.  It looks like many of the statements floating around from people like Rassah are false.  They claim Ver was the only person to serve a jail sentence.  But look here, another guy got 6 years for the same thing:

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/2004/Indiana-Businessman-Sentenced-to-Over-Six-Years-in-Federal-Prison-for-Illegally-Selling-Professional-Fireworks-To-Consumers/

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/2003/Missouri-Company-Ordered-To-Stop-Manufacturing-and-Selling-Illegal-Fireworks/

You do realize that many of the people using Bitcoin have something they hate about the current system of governance. They see Bitcoin as a way to take a bite out government control and put themselves in charge. The most obvious reason for that perception is because they feel they were somehow wronged by the system. Why should Ver be any different. When I was young we used M-80s to scare game away from our back yards. We could buy huge Roman candles that carried enough black powder to blow up a barn. I guess sometime in the last 30 years or so the American people got too stupid to be allowed to use fireworks safely. That's funny because I read a report that firework accidents causing house fires have continuously gone up over the last 30 years even though fireworks are less potent and better regulated. I don't see Ver as being a real threat to this stupid country. I just don't see him entering the country to compete with Indian reservations by selling illegal fireworks. I can only imagine that if you knew the full bio on a lot of the Bitcoin supporters you would probably run for the hills.

The U.S. Government acts like the biggest kid on the block. He's a bully that's used to getting his own way and steals your lunch money. When he doesn't get his way because someone stands up to him he holds a grudge and causes as much trouble as he can. Someone needs to report the USG to the teacher because he needs a good spanking.

[Flashman]

IMO it's not selling them, it's the storage in apartment building he completely deserved slap upside the head for.

[QuestionAuthority]

IMO it's not selling them, it's the storage in apartment building he completely deserved slap upside the head for.

Millions of people store ammunition in paper boxes all over the country. I have a friend that reloads his own rounds. He has a half gallon milk carton like container full of black powder that he pours powder out of into his reloader. He lives in a TIC (like an apartment) with four other families and stores it in his closet. What he's doing is perfectly legal.

[Flashman]

Because 5lb of powder is completely the same as ~50lb of powder. 

[QuestionAuthority]

Because 5lb of powder is completely the same as ~50lb of powder. 

I'm not really sure how much in weight he has hanging around but I would guess it's a lot more than 50lbs because we chip in and he reloads for a bunch of us. lol

[HELP.org]

You do realize that many of the people using Bitcoin have something they hate about the current system of governance. They see Bitcoin as a way to take a bite out government control and put themselves in charge. The most obvious reason for that perception is because they feel they were somehow wronged by the system. Why should Ver be any different. When I was young we used M-80s to scare game away from our back yards. We could buy huge Roman candles that carried enough black powder to blow up a barn. I guess sometime in the last 30 years or so the American people got too stupid to be allowed to use fireworks safely. That's funny because I read a report that firework accidents causing house fires have continuously gone up over the last 30 years even though fireworks are less potent and better regulated. I don't see Ver as being a real threat to this stupid country. I just don't see him entering the country to compete with Indian reservations by selling illegal fireworks. I can only imagine that if you knew the full bio on a lot of the Bitcoin supporters you would probably run for the hills.

The U.S. Government acts like the biggest kid on the block. He's a bully that's used to getting his own way and steals your lunch money. When he doesn't get his way because someone stands up to him he holds a grudge and causes as much trouble as he can. Someone needs to report the USG to the teacher because he needs a good spanking.

Of course, that is why I am involved.  Just because I am dissatisfied with parts of the system does not mean the solution is some kind of ridiculous fantasy anarcho-whatever system that would have everyone living in caves.

As for the "US Government" it is a collection of different agencies and branches all with their own missions and interests.  Only delusion wing nuts group lump them together into one entity and they are voted in by the populace anyway.

Bitcoin is a tool that will force the hands of certain regulatory and commercial entities but it isn't going to end wars or collapse governments.   The only people who think that way are a few dumb kids who have not experienced the world and a few older mentally ill people like Roger Ver who don't learn anything from their life experiences.

[tvbcof]

IMO it's not selling them, it's the storage in apartment building he completely deserved slap upside the head for.

Millions of people store ammunition in paper boxes all over the country. I have a friend that reloads his own rounds. He has a half gallon milk carton like container full of black powder that he pours powder out of into his reloader. He lives in a TIC (like an apartment) with four other families and stores it in his closet. What he's doing is perfectly legal.

Loaded ammo doesn't have a fuse sticking out of it, and the container is quite durable.  Rounds can cook off in a fire though.  Nitrocellulose and black power are also a different beast than some explosives.  They burn more than explode (much less detonate) when not confined, though they burn pretty quickly.  The primer material is a different matter.

I'm a staunch believer in the 2nd, but if you have goobers living in multi-family units and having things like half gallon milk cartons full of black powder kicking around that's is, unhappily, a fairly good reason for Big Brother to be regulating.  There are many hobbies and businesses which one should probably defer on until one has their own place.  Alternately, if one gets a thumbs-up from all of the folks who live in the same building, I'm cool with that.

[QuestionAuthority]

You do realize that many of the people using Bitcoin have something they hate about the current system of governance. They see Bitcoin as a way to take a bite out government control and put themselves in charge. The most obvious reason for that perception is because they feel they were somehow wronged by the system. Why should Ver be any different. When I was young we used M-80s to scare game away from our back yards. We could buy huge Roman candles that carried enough black powder to blow up a barn. I guess sometime in the last 30 years or so the American people got too stupid to be allowed to use fireworks safely. That's funny because I read a report that firework accidents causing house fires have continuously gone up over the last 30 years even though fireworks are less potent and better regulated. I don't see Ver as being a real threat to this stupid country. I just don't see him entering the country to compete with Indian reservations by selling illegal fireworks. I can only imagine that if you knew the full bio on a lot of the Bitcoin supporters you would probably run for the hills.

The U.S. Government acts like the biggest kid on the block. He's a bully that's used to getting his own way and steals your lunch money. When he doesn't get his way because someone stands up to him he holds a grudge and causes as much trouble as he can. Someone needs to report the USG to the teacher because he needs a good spanking.

Of course, that is why I am involved.  Just because I am dissatisfied with parts of the system does not mean the solution is some kind of ridiculous fantasy anarcho-whatever system that would have everyone living in caves.

As for the "US Government" it is a collection of different agencies and branches all with their own missions and interests.  Only delusion wing nuts group lump them together into one entity and they are voted in by the populace anyway.

Bitcoin is a tool that will force the hands of certain regulatory and commercial entities but it isn't going to end wars or collapse governments.   The only people who think that way are a few dumb kids who have not experienced the world and a few older mentally ill people like Roger Ver who don't learn anything from their life experiences.

Anyone that makes a mistake in life should be ostracized? You have a pretty authoritarian view of the world for a Bitcoiner.

Oh, and you can lump control of all U. S. Government agencies together. When we do that we call it Congress. lol

[QuestionAuthority]

IMO it's not selling them, it's the storage in apartment building he completely deserved slap upside the head for.

Millions of people store ammunition in paper boxes all over the country. I have a friend that reloads his own rounds. He has a half gallon milk carton like container full of black powder that he pours powder out of into his reloader. He lives in a TIC (like an apartment) with four other families and stores it in his closet. What he's doing is perfectly legal.

Loaded ammo doesn't have a fuse sticking out of it, and the container is quite durable.  Rounds can cook off in a fire though.  Nitrocellulose and black power are also a different beast than some explosives.  They burn more than explode (much less detonate) when not confined, though they burn pretty quickly.  The primer material is a different matter.

I'm a staunch believer in the 2nd, but if you have goobers living in multi-family units and having things like half gallon milk cartons full of black powder kicking around that's is, unhappily, a fairly good reason for Big Brother to be regulating.  There are many hobbies and businesses which one should probably defer on until one has their own place.  Alternately, if one gets a thumbs-up from all of the folks who live in the same building, I'm cool with that.

I guess either one is kind of dumb. Explosives of all types should probably be regulated and kept under the control of a power greater than the individual. Warriors controlled by the collective and dedicated to an end game need that control. Although, it's the end game that makes me want to keep some personal control over them but I see your point. It's not like public controlled utilities like PG&E ever blow up entire city blocks or C-4 ever ends up missing because some soldier steals it.

[ForgottenPassword]

Have you all seen this: http://www.coindesk.com/roger-ver-denied-us-visa-attend-miami-bitcoin-conference/

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

It's because he renounced his citizenship. He has a criminal record, it's next to impossible to get a US travel visa with a criminal record. Also because he was once a US citizenship and has many ties to the US such as family, there is a chance he may decide not to return once his travel visa expires and stay as an illegal immigrant in the US. This is why he's being denied, nothing to do with Bitcoin AFAICT.

[QuestionAuthority]

Have you all seen this: http://www.coindesk.com/roger-ver-denied-us-visa-attend-miami-bitcoin-conference/

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore? I suggest we all mail a cup of fresh urine to the U.S. senate in protest with a label that says, "piss off".

It's because he renounced his citizenship. He has a criminal record, it's next to impossible to get a US travel visa with a criminal record. Also because he was once a US citizenship and has many ties to the US such as family, there is a chance he may decide not to return once his travel visa expires and stay as an illegal immigrant in the US. This is why he's being denied, nothing to do with Bitcoin AFAICT.

I guess your right but if he violates the terms of his visa can't they just expel him? Or are they afraid that the ridiculous system of monitoring imposed on the people over the past few decades won't be enough to find him? Can't they just pick him up when he hops out of the forest like a scared deer to visit this family that he is here to be around? The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

[siameze]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

[QuestionAuthority]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

[ForgottenPassword]

I guess your right but if he violates the terms of his visa can't they just expel him? Or are they afraid that the ridiculous system of monitoring imposed on the people over the past few decades won't be enough to find him. Can't they just pick him up when he hops out of the forest like a scared deer to visit this family that he is here to be around? The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

It's just easier and cheaper to refuse entry to risky people than to go chasing them down across the country when they run off. It sucks big time, but the US aren't the only ones who have these crazy immigration laws, although they do enforce them very strictly.

[siameze]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

[QuestionAuthority]

I guess your right but if he violates the terms of his visa can't they just expel him? Or are they afraid that the ridiculous system of monitoring imposed on the people over the past few decades won't be enough to find him. Can't they just pick him up when he hops out of the forest like a scared deer to visit this family that he is here to be around? The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

It's just easier and cheaper to refuse entry to risky people than to go chasing them down across the country when they run off. It sucks big time, but the US aren't the only ones who have these crazy immigration laws, although they do enforce them very strictly.

That, I'm sure, would be their argument. I would counter by saying that the difficulty or expense would be greatly reduced by the fact that this guy has been all over the media for at least five years and wouldn't be that hard to find. I think a every media outlet in the country would run the story and he would be found in a day. They could close his business and confiscate MemoryDealers in San Jose as a repayment for his debt to this poor nation who had to suffer through the ordeal of having a businessman running free (I couldn't even type that without laughing). You're right though, America enforces everything around the world "very strictly"

[QuestionAuthority]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

[Flashman]

The other way hostile to current administration media interests could spin this story, if he was allowed in, would be "Self radicalised foreign citizen with explosives convictions allowed entry." Which is rather contrary to the script of the current security theatre production.

[QuestionAuthority]

The other way hostile to current administration media interests could spin this story, if he was allowed in, would be "Self radicalised foreign citizen with explosives convictions allowed entry." Which is rather contrary to the script of the current security theatre production.

ROLF

Truth Be Told (film at 11:00)

[iamback]

Why would the government do this other than to mess with him? Is it because of his connection to Bitcoin or because he renounced his citizenship? If you renounce your citizenship you can't go to the U.S. anymore?

It's because he clearly and admittedly renounced his citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes. That bolded part is important. We don't need any conspiracy theories here, it's been U.S. policy for many years that if you renounce your citizenship for the purpose of not paying U.S. taxes you are not to be admitted back into the country. Eduardo Saverin (co-founder of Facebook) is likely in the same boat, since he also clearly renounced his citizenship to avoid taxes.

Of course, it could also have something to do with the fact that Ver was convicted of selling explosives on eBay, that's something I'd think most governments (not just the U.S.) wouldn't take too lightly.. but no, let's forget about any plausible explanations based on long-standing U.S. laws and policies and just assume it's a conspiracy against Bitcoin.

Correct.

The expert says:

http://www.nestmann.com/the-real-reasons-americans-give-up-their-us-citizenship

In 2012, and again in 2013, Senators Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Bob Casey (D-PA) introduced legislation that would retroactively punish wealthy expatriates like Saverin. Under their most recent proposal, expatriates with a net worth exceeding $2 million, or with an average income tax liability exceeding $155,000 for the five years preceding expatriation, would be presumed to have given up US citizenship for tax avoidance purposes. If they couldn't prove otherwise to the IRS, they would be permanently barred from ever coming back to the US – even as visitors.

Such “covered” expatriates would also face a 30% percent tax on future gains from US investments, no matter where they live. In contrast, all other non-US citizens who invest in the US enjoy substantial tax advantages.

And get this… both the tax and re-entry provisions are retroactive for anyone who expatriated during the 10-year period prior to the time the law comes into effect.

I’m not aware of any effort by Schumer or Casey to introduce similar legislation in 2014. But, of course, we still have nine months to go.

http://www.nestmann.com/getting-out-is-hard-getting-back-in-is-harder

If you enter the USA with a foreign passport that shows that you were born in the USA, you’ll receive even greater scrutiny.

My friend and colleague P.T. Freeman, who gave up his US citizenship more than a decade ago, was intensively questioned on his most recent entry into the USA.

The first official he spoke to noticed that his foreign passport showed US heritage. The official—whom he actually knew from previous visits— informed P.T. that he needed to use his US passport to enter the USA. P.T. told the official that he had given up his US citizenship, along with the right to use a US passport, many years ago.

The official informed him that a directive sent out to border officials last month set out a new policy for anyone entering the USA with a passport showing a US birthplace. That policy requires that anyone entering the USA with this status automatically be diverted to secondary inspection.

As I’ve written previously, it’s becoming much more difficult for everyone—especially former US citizens—to obtain a visitor’s visa to the USA.

http://www.nestmann.com/former-u-s-citizens-face-discrimination-returning-usa

Non-resident aliens (NRAs) with previous U.S. nationality or permanent residence once were treated virtually the same as other NRAs for purposes of entry or re-entry to the United States.

This status began to change in 1996, when Congress enacted the Reed Amendment to the Immigration & Nationality Act. The amendment gives the U.S. Attorney General the discretion to deny re-entry into the United States to a former U.S. citizen who renounced U.S. citizenship in order to avoid U.S. taxation. Exclusion is limited to former U.S. citizens and doesn't include former Green Card holders. (The Attorney General’s authority transferred to the Secretary of Homeland Security under the Homeland Security Act of 2002.)

While the authority of the Reed Amendment has never officially been issued, some U.S. consular officials have denied visa applications from former U.S. citizens, apparently using the Reed amendment as an excuse. This is despite the fact that according to the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual,

"The Department of Homeland Security has not published implementing regulations on INA 212(a)(10)(E) (8 U.S.C. 1182), so no procedures implementing this law are currently in effect."

Then, only a few weeks ago, Senators Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Bob Casey (D-Pa.) introduced legislation (The "Ex-PATRIOT Act") that would permanently bar "covered expatriates" from ever returning to the United States. What's more, the law would be retroactive to anyone expatriating up to ten years prior to its enactment. However, in common with the Reed Amendment, it would apply only to former U.S. citizens—not to former green card holders.

Fortunately, the Ex-PATRIOT Act hasn't been enacted. But even without it, I've recently learned of a few examples where former U.S. citizens have been denied a re-entry visa to the United States. Visa denial hasn't been based on the Reed Amendment or any other tax or wealth-related justification. Instead, it's been based on section 214(b) of the Immigration & Nationality Act. In visa denials under this provision, the applicant:

"…did not overcome the presumption of immigrant intent, required by law, by sufficiently demonstrating that you have strong ties to your home country that will compel you to leave the United States at the end of your temporary stay."

In one case, the applicant had very strong ties to his adopted country, and could prove it. However, he didn't bring sufficient evidence of these ties to his visa interview, and thus was denied re-entry. Returning a few days later with a residence permit, driver's license, employment contract, rental contract, etc., he succeeded in obtaining a visitor's visa.

Therefore, if you expatriate and want to return to the United States to visit, bring as much evidence as possible to prove you're completely bound to your new country of residence. Increasingly, other countries—especially in the European Union—are demanding similar proof of permanent ties to another country before granting visitor's visas.

Perhaps you dream of "living nowhere" as a "perpetual traveler" with no ties to any country. That strategy won't work if you need to apply for visitor's visas from most countries. It can work, at least to some extent, if you have a passport that provides visa-free entry to the countries to which you wish to travel. That way, you avoid needing to apply for a visitor's visa. For instance, if you want to travel visa-free to the United States, then you should get a passport from one of the countries on this list. Unfortunately, none of these passports are easy to acquire.

The bottom line is that if you expatriate from the United States,  be mentally prepared never to return. Current policy merely makes it difficult to qualify for a visitor's visa, but legislation now before Congress may place you in permanent exile.

http://www.nestmann.com/why-uncle-sam-wants-these-citizenship-programs-shut-down

In November 2014, Canada imposed visa requirements on citizens of St. Kitts & Nevis. It cited “identity management practices within its Citizenship by Investment program” as the reason for ending visa-free travel to Canada by St. Kitts & Nevis passport holders.

The announcement didn’t describe the “identity management practices” with which it was concerned, but it seems safe to assume that one practice that Canada deemed objectionable was that, since 2012, St. Kitts & Nevis has issued passports that don’t display the passport-holder’s place of birth. Nor do the passports show any legal name changes.

That seems a safe assumption, because only days after Canada imposed visa restrictions, the St. Kitts & Nevis government recalled all passports issued between January 2012 and July 2014. The passports will be reissued to add the place of birth of the passport holder and to list any name changes on the observation page. After January 31, 2015, the old passports will be invalid.

http://www.nestmann.com/heres-one-fight-uncle-sam-cant-win

On May 20, FinCEN issued an “Advisory” that warned banks worldwide to apply special scrutiny to individuals identifying themselves as citizens of St. Kitts & Nevis.

Apparently, FinCEN doesn’t believe that St. Kitts & Nevis is trying hard enough to exclude Iranians from its economic citizenship program. And there’s more than just a hint of hypocrisy in that position. At least one other entrant in the economic citizenship market – Antigua – has no outright prohibition against Iranian applicants.

http://www.nestmann.com/second-passports-does-uncle-sam-need-to-know

Having a second passport and citizenship is not a reason to panic when it comes time to renew your US passport. Nothing changes, really, except for the fact that you need to include the sworn affidavit with your US passport renewal application. You do not even need to come face to face with a State Department official unless you do not qualify to renew by mail.

[QuestionAuthority]

Well, I guess that's the reason. What a frightened little bunny rabbit America has become. I wonder if he illegally entered the country and agreed to pick some lettuce and spinach if they would let him stay for the summer. lol

[BADecker]

You could always jump off the ship or plane into the ocean and swim ashore, and pick things up from there.

 

[QuestionAuthority]

You could always jump off the ship or plane into the ocean and swim ashore, and pick things up from there.

 

It's not even that difficult. Now he knows to go to TJ first and hire a coyote. He just needs to learn one phrase in Spanish: estoy aquí sólo para recoger lechuga

[MCHouston]

I agree this country has some idiots in leadership roles, but he was denied just cause he renounced his citizenship.

He would of had a better chance on just sneaking in instead of apply for a visa.

[Possum577]

THere's no evidence that bitcoin has ANYTHING to do with it, in fact, why would it? The government has more important things to concern itself with.

The fact is, this guy renounced his citizenship, fine, and then he wants to get back into the country?? And he expects the US to say, "sure, come back in!"...this guy is a fool if he's surprised by this.

Here's an analogy...someone comes to your house and says "Fuck you, I hate this place, I don't ever want to be associated with it!" Would you want them back in your house again?

I agree with his t-shirt, but there's nothing we can do about that.

[QuestionAuthority]

THere's no evidence that bitcoin has ANYTHING to do with it, in fact, why would it? The government has more important things to concern itself with.

The fact is, this guy renounced his citizenship, fine, and then he wants to get back into the country?? And he expects the US to say, "sure, come back in!"...this guy is a fool if he's surprised by this.

Here's an analogy...someone comes to your house and says "Fuck you, I hate this place, I don't ever want to be associated with it!" Would you want them back in your house again?

I agree with his t-shirt, but there's nothing we can do about that.

Now that's an interesting viewpoint. It's ok for the government to behave the same way a disappointed child would.

[HELP.org]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

[siameze]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

[HELP.org]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

[QuestionAuthority]

Free State Project people are kind of nutters but so are libertarians. The good news is there are less than 20,000 of them.

[siameze]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

Thank you for your reply. War isn't going to end anytime soon, no matter what financial tools are at our disposal. I don't see the "replacement of the US dollar" thing. Bitcoin is designed to do just that. The dollar does it's job, and bitcoin does what it is meant to do. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

[leopard2]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

No. He was an honest trader and the government scum set him up. Read before you blab, that link was in the OP article.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/11/12/bitcoin-venture-capitalist-roger-vers-journey-to-anarchism/

 In the meeting, my attorney told the prosecutor that selling store bought firecrackers on Ebay isn’t a big deal and that we can pay a fine and do some community service to be done with everything. When the prosecutor agreed that that sounded reasonable one of the ATF agents pounded his hand on the table and shouted “…but you didn’t hear the things that he said!” This summed up very clearly that they were angry about the things that I had said, not the things that I had done.

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

[HELP.org]

the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I think they are a comedy troupe now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg7YhXuyw5g

What exactly is wrong with the free state project? I'm actually curious, because I don't know you personally but someone I respect highly evidently trusts you so I'd like to hear it.

I had heard of them before and I thought it was good thing at first.  The first time I actually heard their show was the coverage of the first big Bitcoin Foundation conference.  I told my Dad about it and he was over when the conference was starting.  They started running commercials claiming all government workers were "murders."  Totally off-the-wall stuff.  Since then I have been watching the members of this organization talk about Bitcoin and there was quite a bit of exaggeration and misrepresentation.  It is not just one or two instances, it is a pattern.  What they are doing is using Bitcoin to promote their agenda and they attach the success of their agenda to the success of Bitcoin, hence the misinformation and exaggeration.

these exaggerations include claims that the Bitcoin economy is huge and increasing exponentially.  Another claim is that it is impossible to change the 21 million limit yet they claim it is easy to fix bugs and change the number of decimal digits.  Ver says the OpenBazaar is based on "blockchain technology."   Then there are the claims that Bitcoin will end war or somehow change the way the entire world works.  The vast number of potential Bitcoin users are never going to agree with this stuff. 

I agree that there is an erosion of liberties, government is too big, financially irresponsible, and all that but the Free State people are so far out they offer no benefit to Bitcoin.  it is true that some of those people blazed the trail for Bitcoin in its early days but now they are a detriment by using Bitcoin to promote an agenda.  You may notice that successful Bitcoin businesses are not promoting Bitcoin as a tool to end war, collapse governments, or replace the US dollar.

Thank you for your reply. War isn't going to end anytime soon, no matter what financial tools are at our disposal. I don't see the "replacement of the US dollar" thing. Bitcoin is designed to do just that. The dollar does it's job, and bitcoin does what it is meant to do. Or am I misinterpreting your words?

I think Bitcoin will one of many financial instruments and currencies.  I thinks banks will use it for money transfers, people will use it for remittance, unbanked will use it (it will not solve the problem of unbanked but it will be one more tool to help) and things like that.  However, there are several use cases where Bitcoin is not the ideal financial instrument and the whole world is not going to switch over to Bitcoin.  Decentralization is expensive and slow and many things are better done in a centralized manner and there is a real issue with transaction fees as the block rewards are reduced.  I do not believe the Erik Vorhees theory that the world's currencies are all going to collapse and the world is going to flock to Bitcoin like a "lifeboat."  If you listen to Gavin and Mike Hearn when they discuss these issues they generally put things in a proper perspective.  

[siameze]

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

[HELP.org]

He's a fucking idiot.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/press-releases/2002/verPlea.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4SCAw264qM

No. He was an honest trader and the government scum set him up. Read before you blab, that link was in the OP article.

http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/11/12/bitcoin-venture-capitalist-roger-vers-journey-to-anarchism/

 In the meeting, my attorney told the prosecutor that selling store bought firecrackers on Ebay isn’t a big deal and that we can pay a fine and do some community service to be done with everything. When the prosecutor agreed that that sounded reasonable one of the ATF agents pounded his hand on the table and shouted “…but you didn’t hear the things that he said!” This summed up very clearly that they were angry about the things that I had said, not the things that I had done.

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

When you are up for a crime it is normal to consider both what is said and what is done.  It is also normal to consider some types of transactions illegal for a variety of reasons.  In this case it was accidents caused by people improperly handling or using the explosives.  Back when people lived in caves these restrictions did not exist.

[leopard2]

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

100% agreed. Now, if Ebay bans such sales on their website, that is perfectly within their right and the only sentence he therefore deserved, was losing his Ebay account.

Instead he got 10 months in jail for properly executing contracts with other individuals on a voluntary basis. This obviously was the reason he renounced his citizenship. I had no idea who Roger Ver is but like him now 

[QuestionAuthority]

Something is badly wrong with justice anyways, when selling fireworks is considered illegal even though they were properly paid for (and not stolen). A proper sales contract between two private individuals, how can that be illegal?!?!?!

Well that is the way it *should* be. Even the US dollar says "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" But it really doesn't work that way, sadly.

100% agreed. Now, if Ebay bans such sales on their website, that is perfectly within their right and the only sentence he therefore deserved, was losing his Ebay account.

Instead he got 10 months in jail for properly executing contracts with other individuals on a voluntary basis. This obviously was the reason he renounced his citizenship. I had no idea who Roger Ver is but like him now 

A lot of the early Bitcoin community likes him. He was one of the reasons Bitcoin took off. He donated his money and time to the cause when everyone else in the world thought Bitcoiners were a collection of radical idiots. He owned one of the first brick and mortar businesses to accept Bitcoin, put up a billboard on a San Jose freeway supporting Bitcoin, preached the cause all over the world and championed it with all his might. Agree with him or not, hate him or not, we're probably all still here in no small part because of him.

[siameze]

Back when people lived in caves these restrictions did not exist.

Seriously?

[jbreher]

Since Whitehurst was and FBI agent people like Ver and the Free State Project call him a "murderer" too.  Don't you see how ridiculous those people are and how stupid they make Bitcoin look?

No, I fail to see how that makes Bitcoin look stupid. Does that make all males look stupid? All former US citizens?

[jbreher]

Of course, that is why I am involved.  Just because I am dissatisfied with parts of the system does not mean the solution is some kind of ridiculous fantasy anarcho-whatever system that would have everyone living in caves.

If we didn't have "authority" to force us to do better, we'd be living in caves? Really?

Life would be very different, yes. Personally, I think it would be an improvement. I can understand how others may feel different, but I am convinced that the mental image you portray about the state we would be in without dictatorial overlords is way off the mark.

[tvbcof]

A lot of the early Bitcoin community likes him [Ver]. He was one of the reasons Bitcoin took off. He donated his money and time to the cause when everyone else in the world thought Bitcoiners were a collection of radical idiots. He owned one of the first brick and mortar businesses to accept Bitcoin, put up a billboard on a San Jose freeway supporting Bitcoin, preached the cause all over the world and championed it with all his might. Agree with him or not, hate him or not, we're probably all still here in no small part because of him.

+1.  It's easy to forget this, and I've forgotten it from time to time.

[QuestionAuthority]

A lot of the early Bitcoin community likes him [Ver]. He was one of the reasons Bitcoin took off. He donated his money and time to the cause when everyone else in the world thought Bitcoiners were a collection of radical idiots. He owned one of the first brick and mortar businesses to accept Bitcoin, put up a billboard on a San Jose freeway supporting Bitcoin, preached the cause all over the world and championed it with all his might. Agree with him or not, hate him or not, we're probably all still here in no small part because of him.

+1.  It's easy to forget this, and I've forgotten it from time to time.

Roger and I have not seen eye to eye on every issue. We've sent angry PMs to each other over a personal difference of opinion. I still have the PMs. I'm not, however, going to disregard his contribution because we don't always agree. Too many people in this community are willing to throw a brother away when they're down. It just ain't right.

[Kluge]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

FSP's significantly older than BTC, fwiw. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian at a BTC conference in FL a few months ago. Signed a pledge of intent, but then my job hunt ended abruptly soon after (thank God). Was kind of surprised they came to a fairly low-key crypto conference... I've been hearing about Ian and the FSP for more than my entire adult life, so really putting a face to it was kind of..... .... disturbing.

[QuestionAuthority]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

FSP's significantly older than BTC, fwiw. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian at a BTC conference in FL a few months ago. Signed a pledge of intent, but then my job hunt ended abruptly soon after (thank God). Was kind of surprised they came to a fairly low-key crypto conference... I've been hearing about Ian and the FSP for more than my entire adult life, so really putting a face to it was kind of..... .... disturbing.

If it's disturbing to you and you agree with the ideology then what must the rest of the country think? LOL
Freeman has the right idea but he's too fringe/radical in his presentations to get major support. One of my favorite quotes from him is, "I don't believe in the state. Unfortunately a lot of people do believe in the state and they are willing to kill for it. It is a very very dangerous religion." I completely agree with that statement even though it alienates about 90% of the people in the country. He needs to back off of the militia speak and start preaching the little things that everyone hates about the direction this country has taken. I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't agree in principle with something he believes about the country. Presentation is everything though and he scares the little fluffy bunny citizens too much to garner big support. That's the reason they still don't have the necessary 20,000 people to trigger the move after all these years.

[Kluge]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

FSP's significantly older than BTC, fwiw. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian at a BTC conference in FL a few months ago. Signed a pledge of intent, but then my job hunt ended abruptly soon after (thank God). Was kind of surprised they came to a fairly low-key crypto conference... I've been hearing about Ian and the FSP for more than my entire adult life, so really putting a face to it was kind of..... .... disturbing.

If it's disturbing to you and you agree with the ideology then what must the rest of the country think? LOL
Freeman has the right idea but he's too fringe/radical in his presentations to get major support. One of my favorite quotes from him is, "I don't believe in the state. Unfortunately a lot of people do believe in the state and they are willing to kill for it. It is a very very dangerous religion." I completely agree with that statement even though it alienates about 90% of the people in the country. He needs to back off of the militia speak and start preaching the little things that everyone hates about the direction this country has taken. I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't agree in principle with something he believes about the country. Presentation is everything though and he scares the little fluffy bunny citizens too much to garner big support. That's the reason they still don't have the necessary 20,000 people to trigger the move after all these years.

Idunno. He's so human in speaking... I don't think he's even capable of changing the tone of his message because it's really HIS tone and message. I guess that's why he can't be a politician. It'd be like coaching Ron Paul... and then you get some ad coming out where he endorsed whats-his-name (Amit Singh?) I still remember a quote from... "TEX MESSSXT?!" Like - someone clearly wrote a script he was supposed to follow, and it was like watching a five-year-old at a school play trying to pretend they're the Duke of Butthamburg with a straight face. -Or that line, which was absolutely hilarious (mostly for the wrong reasons)... "You'd have to smoke a joint as big as a telephone pole to get high off hemp!" Ron obviously didn't write that line and he wasn't able to deliver it in any believable way, even though it's the only quote I remember from whatever speech or rally that was.

[QuestionAuthority]

The law just looks like a spoiled bully that is making up stupid rules because they're pissed because one of their subjects stood up for himself and said, enough is enough.

If you recall that sort of behaviour helped spark the revolution that the USofA started from. Has it come full circle?

Well, the people involved in the Free State Project seem to think so.

I remember seeing the Free State Project ads on CoinVisitor. Didn't know that was still in operation.

They're still around. https://freestateproject.org

FSP's significantly older than BTC, fwiw. I had the pleasure of meeting Ian at a BTC conference in FL a few months ago. Signed a pledge of intent, but then my job hunt ended abruptly soon after (thank God). Was kind of surprised they came to a fairly low-key crypto conference... I've been hearing about Ian and the FSP for more than my entire adult life, so really putting a face to it was kind of..... .... disturbing.

If it's disturbing to you and you agree with the ideology then what must the rest of the country think? LOL
Freeman has the right idea but he's too fringe/radical in his presentations to get major support. One of my favorite quotes from him is, "I don't believe in the state. Unfortunately a lot of people do believe in the state and they are willing to kill for it. It is a very very dangerous religion." I completely agree with that statement even though it alienates about 90% of the people in the country. He needs to back off of the militia speak and start preaching the little things that everyone hates about the direction this country has taken. I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't agree in principle with something he believes about the country. Presentation is everything though and he scares the little fluffy bunny citizens too much to garner big support. That's the reason they still don't have the necessary 20,000 people to trigger the move after all these years.

Idunno. He's so human in speaking... I don't think he's even capable of changing the tone of his message because it's really HIS tone and message. I guess that's why he can't be a politician. It'd be like coaching Ron Paul... and then you get some ad coming out where he endorsed whats-his-name (Amit Singh?) I still remember a quote from... "TEX MESSSXT?!" Like - someone clearly wrote a script he was supposed to follow, and it was like watching a five-year-old at a school play trying to pretend they're the Duke of Butthamburg with a straight face. -Or that line, which was absolutely hilarious (mostly for the wrong reasons)... "You'd have to smoke a joint as big as a telephone pole to get high off hemp!" Ron obviously didn't write that line and he wasn't able to deliver it in any believable way, even though it's the only quote I remember from whatever speech or rally that was.

Yeah, you're right. It's his honest passion that makes him who he is. If you tried to script him it wouldn't work. This will piss off a lot of Free Staters but maybe someone else more mellow needs to be the face of the project for a while. If there even is someone more mellow in that group. lol

[HELP.org]

Roger and I have not seen eye to eye on every issue. We've sent angry PMs to each other over a personal difference of opinion. I still have the PMs. I'm not, however, going to disregard his contribution because we don't always agree. Too many people in this community are willing to throw a brother away when they're down. It just ain't right.

He is some guy who bought Bitcoin and is trying to make a profit via the incentive system that is set up.  He is not a "brother" and nobody agrees to join any "community" when they use Bitcoin.  We are not "brothers" and Ver is not "down."  He gave up his citizenship and now he can't attend a Bitcoin conference and spout misinformation to promote his fantasy agenda.  Who cares?  It is a positive for Bitcoin to get this nut job off the agenda of serious Bitcoin conferences.

[HELP.org]

I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't agree in principle with something he believes about the country. Presentation is everything though and he scares the little fluffy bunny citizens too much to garner big support. That's the reason they still don't have the necessary 20,000 people to trigger the move after all these years.

Wrong again, people are not scared.  People think they are ridiculous because they take things too far.  People value security above any political ideology and society is not going to change because some nut case who has not achieved much in life says so.

[QuestionAuthority]

Roger and I have not seen eye to eye on every issue. We've sent angry PMs to each other over a personal difference of opinion. I still have the PMs. I'm not, however, going to disregard his contribution because we don't always agree. Too many people in this community are willing to throw a brother away when they're down. It just ain't right.

He is some guy who bought Bitcoin and is trying to make a profit via the incentive system that is set up.  He is not a "brother" and nobody agrees to join any "community" when they use Bitcoin.  We are not "brothers" and Ver is not "down."  He gave up his citizenship and now he can't attend a Bitcoin conference and spout misinformation to promote his fantasy agenda.  Who cares?  It is a positive for Bitcoin to get this nut job off the agenda of serious Bitcoin conferences.

Wow, you really are a horrible human being. With supporters like you who needs enemies. Bitcoin isn't the community I'm talking about you fool. The users of this forum are and unfortunately you're a part of it. Regardless of their agenda his support helped this group of people advance Bitcoin. He is down. The tax authority of a ruthless country is chasing him around the world to steal his money because they need money to impose their will with force on the entire world. I've never said this about anyone here before, even the trolls, but listening to your pompous ramblings makes me sick to my stomach. Why don't you go fall off the edge of the earth. You do still think it's flat, right?

[HELP.org]

Roger and I have not seen eye to eye on every issue. We've sent angry PMs to each other over a personal difference of opinion. I still have the PMs. I'm not, however, going to disregard his contribution because we don't always agree. Too many people in this community are willing to throw a brother away when they're down. It just ain't right.

He is some guy who bought Bitcoin and is trying to make a profit via the incentive system that is set up.  He is not a "brother" and nobody agrees to join any "community" when they use Bitcoin.  We are not "brothers" and Ver is not "down."  He gave up his citizenship and now he can't attend a Bitcoin conference and spout misinformation to promote his fantasy agenda.  Who cares?  It is a positive for Bitcoin to get this nut job off the agenda of serious Bitcoin conferences.

Wow, you really are a horrible human being. With supporters like you who needs enemies. Bitcoin isn't the community I'm talking about you fool. The users of this forum are and unfortunately you're a part of it. Regardless of their agenda his support helped this group of people advance Bitcoin. He is down. The tax authority of a ruthless country is chasing him around the world to steal his money because they need money to impose their will with force on the entire world. I've never said this about anyone here before, even the trolls, but listening to your pompous ramblings makes me sick to my stomach. Why don't you go fall off the edge of the earth. You do still think it's flat, right?

Ver wants to use the system for his benefit and he doesn't to pay his pair share.  Then he wants to use the situation to promote himself and his fantasies ... just like he is using Ross Ubricht's mother during the most difficult time of her life.  On top of that he calls the people who helped him get where is today "the violent ones" and "murderers."  I don't care what he invested in or who he got involved in Bitcoin I want absolutely nothing to do with him or any of his associates or followers.

[jbreher]

People value security above any political ideology ...

Shall I insert the obligatory Ben Franklin quote here, or would that be gratuitous?

[QuestionAuthority]

People value security above any political ideology ...

Shall I insert the obligatory Ben Franklin quote here, or would that be gratuitous?

I think I know the one you're talking about, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Don't waste it on him. He wouldn't understand it anyway. Just do what I did and put him on ignore.

[jbreher]

https://blog.caseykuhlman.com/entries/2014/bitcoin-somaliland.html

Seeing as you indicated you watched at least the first five seconds of my suggested link, I went and read the blog link you posted. Now that I've read it, I wonder... what was the point of that? I see nothing of value to this discussion therein. Just some guy whining about things that other people are doing of their own free volition. I guess a guy advocating for the violence of the state might want to direct that actions of others, but it comes off as merely a strident screed. It also fails to surprise that a contemporary western lawyer (I guess this is this guy's vocation?) might be uncomfortable with all the omnipresent legalistic micro-structure that purports to restrict the free voluntary cooperation required for a functional stateless society. So he's another guy with another stinky opinion. What am I to take from it?

Care to clue me what the point was?

[HELP.org]

Every time I see a post from Help.org/Milly Bitcoin on here or elsewhere online, I know that I'm in for tirade from a government troll. Nice to see that the pattern hasn't been broken on here 

Yes, the whole world is a bunch of trolls and idiots and only a small group of underemployed gamers, teenagers, and mental cases actually know the truth.  Funny how that works.

[MemoryDealers]

Sorry I'm late to the party.

I have a few facts I would like to correct.  Make what you will of it.

1. I did NOT renounce my citizenship for tax reasons.  I haven't lived in the USA for 9 years,  but I've paid about $1M USD each year in US taxes for the last 10+ years, and will continue to pay a similar amount for as long as I continue to do business in the USA.  (People like Help.org / Milly Bitcoin can go to hell for claiming I haven't paid my fair share)

2. My visa is being denied because the embassy workers are claiming that I haven't sufficiently proved my ties to a country outside the USA that would motivate me to leave the US at the end of my trip.  They told me this verbally and in writing.
Actual rejection letter:

3. They told me verbally that my visa denial has nothing to do with my criminal record from over a decade ago.

4. While claiming I hadn't sufficiently shown proof of my ties outside the USA,  they were refusing to even look at the proof I had brought. (9 years worth of ties to Japan)  They wouldn't even let me slide the documentation through the slot in the interview window!

5. Free Talk Live was nice enough to let me tell more of my side of the story recently: https://soundcloud.com/freetalklive/free-talk-live-interviews-roger-ver-aka-bitcoin-jesus


6. I shouldn't have stored fireworks in the apartment without the owner's permission, and I shouldn't have sent them through the mail, but I was 19 or 20 years old at the time of my arrest, and young people tend to do immature things.  I don't think sending me to federal prison was the right response. At some point I will do a longer write up of all the shenanigans played by law enforcement with my case.

7. The internet was a very different place at that time. I was selling the fireworks on ebay in their guns and ammo section along side all sorts of ammunition and assault rifles.

8. I never stored 50lbs worth in an apartment.  50lbs was the total amount that I purchased over a 1 or 2 year period while I was selling the product. Only some fraction of that was ever in the apartment at one time. That included all the packaging materials.  Each one contained about 1 gram of explosive,  and I purchased about 2000 pcs total,  so the total sold over the time period was about 2KG and only a fraction of that was ever in the apartment at one time.

9.  Milly Bitcoin doesn't even bother to read his own links.  I was the only person in the entire world to be sent to jail for selling these without a permit.  The manufacturer sold more than 1,000,000 units and was simply ordered to stop.  Cabelas.com sold the exact same product, and they had no permit. They were simply ordered to stop.  The company I bought mine from,  had no permit and were simply ordered to stop.

10.  I'm not perfect,  and have never claimed to be. There is no such thing as a Bitcoin Jesus.  I've made plenty of mistakes with my Bitcoin related work.  I'm just doing the best I can.

11. I'm not opposed to rules, or police, or government.  I'm simply opposed to all forms of aggressive violence.  If you think you have to hurt someone to solve a problem,  you are the problem.

12. Special thanks to the words of encouragement from the people in this thread. 

[newIndia]

@MemoryDealers Welcome to the Party

[thisisascam]

Really? Seriously? Someone voted "I love em"!

Explain yourself Satan worshiper.

so whoever doesnt agree with you is a stan lover lal

[HELP.org]

2. My visa is being denied because the embassy workers are claiming that I haven't sufficiently proved ...

The letter says they are not giving a specific reason.

11. I'm not opposed to rules, or police, or government.  I'm simply opposed to all forms of aggressive violence.  If you think you have to hurt someone to solve a problem,  you are the problem.

That is not possible which is why your agenda is a fantasy.  Stop linking your fantasy agenda to Bitcoin.  As for the rest of your life ... who cares?  You are doing fine and if you want to sit there and cry how "the violent ones" are ruining your life then go to Bitcoin island and have fun.

[QuestionAuthority]

Sorry I'm late to the party.

I have a few facts I would like to correct.  Make what you will of it.


12. Special thanks to the words of encouragement from the people in this thread. 

Thanks for showing up and clearing up the issue with the truth. I would have been disappointed if you didn't show.

You're efforts over the years deserve our support.

Good luck with your fight.

[Guido]

@memorydealers

good to hear from you, imho you are a top,top man
followed your story with interest over the years

without doubt it was insane uncle sam inflicted that sentence on you and is beyond a joke you cannot enter your country of birth even though paying huge taxes

I foresee in more time to come many indigenous americans will be doing everything to rescind their passports

imo, don't waste too much of your time and energy on this, I realise this is a matter of principle but the US is one of the last places on earth I would visit with the regime running it along with draconian customs, insane cops and the rest of it. not to mention what they have done to this world past few decades.

this is no slur on americans reading this as there are many amazing people from america.

push on with that your doing mate, you've obviously put some noses out of joint, some faceless soulless bureacrats have been told to say no to your application.
don't waste any more energy or money on this, enjoy your life and what you're doing in better places. if the revolution comes, go back after  

[Flashman]

8. I never stored 50lbs worth in an apartment.  50lbs was the total amount that I purchased over a 1 or 2 year period while I was selling the product. Only some fraction of that was ever in the apartment at one time. That included all the packaging materials.  Each one contained about 1 gram of explosive,  and I purchased about 2000 pcs total,  so the total sold over the time period was about 2KG and only a fraction of that was ever in the apartment at one time.

I withdraw my slap upside the head and replace it with a tap on the wrist then.

[MemoryDealers]

2. My visa is being denied because the embassy workers are claiming that I haven't sufficiently proved ...

The letter says they are not giving a specific reason.

Here is another letter where they gave the specific reason in writing rather than just in verbal form:

[HELP.org]

2. My visa is being denied because the embassy workers are claiming that I haven't sufficiently proved ...

The letter says they are not giving a specific reason.

Here is another letter where they gave the specific reason in writing rather than just in verbal form:

Yes, you have several properties listen in your name in California.  Sell those and reapply.  Your rights in those properties are being protected by "the violent ones" anyway so I am sure you don't want that.

[MemoryDealers]

Yes, you have several properties listen in your name in California.  Sell those and reapply.  Your rights in those properties are being protected by "the violent ones" anyway so I am sure you don't want that.

They were already listed for sale last year,  and that has no bearing on the visa issue.
Foreigners can own real estate in the USA.
Obama himself admits that they have a monopoly on violence:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D64KcZsD82E
I don't support using violence on peaceful people.

[HELP.org]

Yes, you have several properties listen in your name in California.  Sell those and reapply.  Your rights in those properties are being protected by "the violent ones" anyway so I am sure you don't want that.

They were already listed for sale last year,  and that has no bearing on the visa issue.
Foreigners can own real estate in the USA.
Obama himself admits that they have a monopoly on violence:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D64KcZsD82E
I don't support using violence on peaceful people.

You don't seem to understand that you can't pick out one or 2 facts, these things are determined by looking at the entire picture.  You are also not going to get a complete answer by asking someone through a window at an embassy or entry point.

Apparently:
-You have property and other ties to the US.
-You run an offshore tax haven business
-You have citizenship in more than one country
-You have been in jail for explosives.
-You have made many statements about federal agents that could be taken as a threat
-You have renounced your citizenship
-You have a radical/fantasy agenda

Plus:
-Terrorism is a hot button issue
-Several Police officers have recently been ambushed and the statements they made before they did are similar to statements you make on a regular basis.

Like it or not, irrespective of what Ben Franklin said, people are going to be concerned about security above any of the issue you have.  You can complain all you want how this is wrong but it isn't going to change it.  if people feel threatened they will do anything and everything else goes out the window.

[Flashman]

I would hazard a guess that you'd also score "more points", if you were citizen of the country you had "permanent ties" with and applied with that passport. Possibly the immigration droid is programmed to think that if you are presenting a St Kitts and Nevis passport, your proof of residence/employment ties should have something to do with St Kitts and Nevis.

[MemoryDealers]

I would like to point out a few more things:

1. The law states I only need to have ties to a country outside of the USA.  It doesn't need to be my country of citizenship.

2. In addition to 9 years of history with Japan, I already have strong ties to St Kitts at this point.  In St Kitts, I bought a substantial amount of real estate, have local friends, started my own local business, and have participated deeply with other local businesses.

[iheartubuntu]

It is more likely due to the combination of renouncing citizenship. running an offshore tax shelter business, and keeping citizenship in 2 different countries. 

I know many people with dual citizenships. My wife loves her country, but got US citizenship so she could get a decent job here in the states. Running businesses overseas is not a crime. In fact many people run businesses in places like Puerto Rico for their tax benefits. Nothing wrong with that. this isnt the bible and the eye of the needle story here, so Id say Rogers yearly tax bill alone will be larger than 99% of the average Americans lifetime of taxes. That alone should give Roger a free pass to travel in the states.

The real prob is the absolute idiots running Homeland Security, ISCIS, Immigration, etc. Whatever new name our politricksters like to call it after the previous ones F something up. I dealt with them when bringing my wife to the states. Downtown Los Angeles. I got a letter saying my wife was to immediately report to Dept Homeland Security and get ready to be deported. We filed our immigration papers properly, sent them in properly and the government screwed up some of our paperwork. They were in the wrong. We headed to downtown to speak with whomever we could. Waited in line 3 hours to get in (funny how we were the only ones who spoke english, dont we have any standards anymore?) then waited another hour to reach the front desk. The large lady behind the counter with her beautiful long nails, immaculate hair style had no care for anyone in the whole building except herself. We showed her the proof that the government screwed everything up and I wanted her to fix it. She said "all this looks gooood to meee. I dont see what the problem is. looks like you done screwed up." I have no idea how these people working for the government get their jobs. Absolutely ridiculous. She refused to say the government was at fault and she threatened to have us arrested for asking to speak with her supervisor. We called our local state representative and he listened to us and promised everything would be fine. We had our case expedited and instead of waiting months, we came back in a week for an interview and found out that lady that helped us had since been fired.

In Rogers case, if he had an educated person behind the desk helping him, if that person spoke to others in the building and just looked at the docs, Roger would have been fine to enter. The people they look for are the ones with zero connections to home and become a flight risk to stay in the US and become a financial burden on the state. Roger is none of those.

This was a political move against Roger no doubt about it.

[freedombit]

The government doesn't do anything: people do.

I agree with Help.org that we should not lump all government employees into one category.

But on the same note, we also should not lump all people into one category:

Like it or not, irrespective of what Ben Franklin said, people are going to be concerned about security above any of the issue you have.  You can complain all you want how this is wrong but it isn't going to change it.  if people feel threatened they will do anything and everything else goes out the window.

Now for my rant:

Not all people are going to be concerned about security above any other issue. Some of the greatest people in history were willing to sacrifice their own security for a greater cause. In fact, one might argue that the members of the US Military AND the many people they are fighting are giving up security and risking their lives for a greater cause. The problem is both sides seem to feel that they are "defensive."

But it is probably true that many people will be concerned about their security above any other issue. I am a little bit like this WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY I THINK CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS WITHIN THE US GOV are over stepping their bounds. I am fearful that the mere fact that I am writing these words likely puts me higher someone's list. History has shown those lists are out there. And why? Because my opinion differs from theirs? Yet - they (the individual or group of individuals) can listen to me, watch my bank account, know EVERYTHING about me, and use anything I do against me; all behind a cloak without ever having to risk the same of themselves. This is dangerous because it can easily lead to (if it hasn't already) lead to a puppet government.

Yes, I am concerned for my security. I would much rather have a government that carries a big stick, but remains peaceful. We have the big stick, why do we have to go poking other countries with it?


One more thought: more people die from cancer than terrorist attacks.

I love the ideas that the USA was founded on. It saddens me greatly each time we lose or give a bit of that up in the name of greed, fear or laziness.

[HELP.org]

The fact that someone renounces their citizenship is probably enough to deny them reentry.  in any case there is no obligation to give a non-citizen a reason.  Just like if I walked up to a another country's embassy and started demanding things.  They owe me nothing.

As for fears of terrorism, etc., threats don't have to be rational, just perceived.  many more people die on the highways than on planes.  When a plane goes down it is a huge issue but that many people die every weekend on the highways. 

if some government employee is faced with the decision of blocking entry to Ver or letting him in they are obviously going to choose blocking him for any one or more of the reasons I listed.  That government employee has nothing to gain by approving his entry and will face problems if something goes wrong.

[jbreher]

if some government employee is faced with the decision of blocking entry to Ver or letting him in they are obviously going to choose blocking him for any one or more of the reasons I listed.  That government employee has nothing to gain by approving his entry and will face problems if something goes wrong.

Which is indicative of a flawed system.

eta: When was the last time a failure of a governmental employee resulted in that individual 'facing problems'? I don't know about the little people on the front lines, but screwups on a monumental scale seem to typically come with increased authority, budgets, and pay.

[HELP.org]

if some government employee is faced with the decision of blocking entry to Ver or letting him in they are obviously going to choose blocking him for any one or more of the reasons I listed.  That government employee has nothing to gain by approving his entry and will face problems if something goes wrong.

Which is indicative of a flawed system.

eta: When was the last time a failure of a governmental employee resulted in that individual 'facing problems'? I don't know about the little people on the front lines, but screwups on a monumental scale seem to typically come with increased authority, budgets, and pay.

No kidding the system is flawed.  All civilizations in all of history have been flawed.  Your Waco video shows the system is flawed.  Everybody knows that.  That does not mean you completely eliminate the system and replace it with some fantasy system based on meme's.  You don't link the problems with your so-called proposed solution.  The point of the other link is to show that anyone can sit there and point to a bunch of Reddit posts and meme's but it is completely different story when you try to implement things in the real world. 

[HELP.org]

Every time I see a post from Milly Bitcoin, I just want to do this:

I don't do anything when I see your posts because they are worthless.  You go around calling people "trolls" like some teenager and you complain government is too big.  No kidding, everybody knows that.  Comcast is too big too and getting support is like contacting a government office.  So what about that?

As for a foreigner trying to get in, the US has no obligation whatsoever to accommodate someone or answer their complaints.  Just like if I went to the Saudi Arabia border and started complaining if they won't let in.

[iheartubuntu]

No kidding the system is flawed.  All civilizations in all of history have been flawed.  Your Waco video shows the system is flawed.  Everybody knows that.  That does not mean you completely eliminate the system and replace it with some fantasy system based on meme's.  You don't link the problems with your so-called proposed solution.  The point of the other link is to show that anyone can sit there and point to a bunch of Reddit posts and meme's but it is completely different story when you try to implement things in the real world.  

I have to disagree here. Real change happens when people work together for a belief of something better. For example if we all collectively decided to stop paying taxes. How would the impact the country? There would have to be immediate dialog. Obamacare? Maybe its good for a handful of helpless people, but its a burden on everyone else. What if people marched and forced all of congress to use Obamacare also? Change would happen pretty quick. Usually nothing happens because there are always naysayers and those that dont hold up to their word.

We are starting to see breaking points around the country and around the globe against the government cartels that run things. People are grouping together to find our own real solutions. Bitcoin is one of them.

[HELP.org]

No kidding the system is flawed.  All civilizations in all of history have been flawed.  Your Waco video shows the system is flawed.  Everybody knows that.  That does not mean you completely eliminate the system and replace it with some fantasy system based on meme's.  You don't link the problems with your so-called proposed solution.  The point of the other link is to show that anyone can sit there and point to a bunch of Reddit posts and meme's but it is completely different story when you try to implement things in the real world. 

I have to disagree here. Real change happens when people work together for a belief of something better. For example if we all collectively decided to stop paying taxes. How would the impact the country? There would have to be immediate dialog. Obamacare? Maybe its good for a handful of helpless people, but its a burden on everyone else. What if people marched and forced all of congress to use Obamacare also? Change would happen pretty quick.

We are starting to see breaking points around the country and around the globe against the government cartels that run things. People are grouping together to find our own real solutions. Bitcoin is one of them.

Yes, like that guy in the video about Waco.  What he did was push for a presidential order to protect the FBI agents for whisltleblowing and he started whistleblowers.org with the money he got from the court settlement.  He didn't run around like some teenager and say the whole system should be abolished and that we should use a system people used when people lived in caves. 

There is zero chance that people will group together and eliminate the "state."   There is a chance that Bitcoin will force the hands of some of those in power and change some things.  However, when someone reasonable proposes some changes this is the way some Bitcoiners react:

http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/19/interview-on-lets-talk-bitcoin-no-137-the-eye-of-the-beholder/

(You may notice the guy who suggested "hanging" Preston Byrne is the same clown complaining about raising the block size:  http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/).  This lunatic crap is really a problem for mass adoption and the screwballs are pushing out all the reasonable people.  Using Bitcoin to end war, threatening to hang people because they are not Libertarian enough, discussing Waco, Silk Road, etc. all have negative impacts on mass adoption and you see how the exchange rate keeps tanking even after Microsoft announced things.  The answer is not to elevate nut jobs like Ver, Shrem, free State Project, etc.  The answer is to push these people out so they are not associated with Bitcoin to the average person the street.   

[iheartubuntu]

The answer is to push these people out so they are not associated with Bitcoin to the average person the street.   

Wait, wait... YOU'RE the answer!

Sorry but in any walk of life... athlete, lawyer, gold miner, pencil pusher, whatever... you will find all sorts of people across the Dungeons & Dragons alignment scale. Theres no getting around that and IMO everyone has something to contribute.

[inBitweTrust]

The answer is to push these people out so they are not associated with Bitcoin to the average person the street.  

Bitcoin is an open source protocol which is open for anyone to interact with. You cannot push us out. Crypto-anarchists and cypherpunks gave birth to this technology and we will not be intimidated to leave or ignore the Raison d'être for bitcoin by coercive statists. You are free to use this technology along with us despite your disappointing philosophical and ethical beliefs. The Bitcoin ecosystem is a big tent and is open for everyone to benefit.

You disparage our ideology and principles but in reality should be grateful to the "fanatics" as we are the ones that will insure Bitcoin will survive and prosper. We aren't looking to scam anyone or looking for a quick buck but are in it for the long haul and will continue to support bitcoin as long as it stays true to its foundational principles.

[Flashman]

This is probably what the anti-Franco side bars sounded like during Spanish Civil War

[allthingsluxury]

Free speech should mean free speech.

[HELP.org]

The answer is to push these people out so they are not associated with Bitcoin to the average person the street.  

Bitcoin is an open source protocol which is open for anyone to interact with. You cannot push us out. Crypto-anarchists and cypherpunks gave birth to this technology and we will not be intimidated to leave or ignore the Raison d'être for bitcoin by coercive statists. You are free to use this technology along with us despite your disappointing philosophical and ethical beliefs. The Bitcoin ecosystem is a big tent and is open for everyone to benefit.

You disparage our ideology and principles but in reality should be grateful to the "fanatics" as we are the ones that will insure Bitcoin will survive and prosper. We aren't looking to scam anyone or looking for a quick buck but are in it for the long haul and will continue to support bitcoin as long as it stays true to its foundational principles.

No, you will be "pushed out" as more reasonable people get involved.   Not "pushed out" in the sense that you can't use it but pushed out by obscurity so that, for instance, the important Bitcoin conferences won't be dominated by nut jobs and agenda-pushers.  You are mistaken that the wing nuts will be the ones who ensure Bitcoin will prosper.  That may have been true early on but now it has turned into a detriment because they scare normal people away and make Bitcoin weaker.  Those people routinely overestimate the importance they have and the size of their market which is why they are the main source of pro-Bitcoin misinformation.  The anarcho-nut job market is not large enough to support companies like Coinbase, Circle, BitPay, and the many new companies that want to get involved.

The same think happened in the early days of the Internet you had people who insisted there would not be any ads on the Internet because it was for research.  Others claimed the Internet would be free from regulation, etc.  They thought that because they were the early pioneers that they would control things forever.  Remember when they all got together to turn the web pages black in response to promised censorship laws?  Not only did the people in power not care, the whole protest with black web pages had to be explained to them.  The same thing is playing out in Bitcoin.  The wing nuts are on the road to obscurity but they are doing damage at the moment.  You may think that once people do a Bitcoin transaction that they will be walking around with Ayn Rand books under their arm but I don't see that happening.

As far as being grateful to the early people, thanks for your effort and I hop you made money in the early days because you are on the road to nowhere.  Of course most will outgrow the nonsense and turn into normal people.  there is a commercial that runs on the 90's Sirius channel "You used to Rage Against the machine ... and now you rage against the washing machine" and they have someone yelling at a broken washing machine.   But Bitcoin is decentralized so I owe the early adopters nothing and they don't owe me anything either for promoting adoption or getting that mining ruling from FinCEN.

[inBitweTrust]

The anarcho-nut job market is not large enough to support companies like Coinbase, Circle, BitPay, and the many new companies that want to get involved.

You are misrepresenting my views as I have repeatedly stated that Bitcoin is for everyone and not just the "anarcho-nut job market ". We can all interact and benefit from the blockchain together.

The same think happened in the early days of the Internet you had people who insisted there would not be any ads on the Internet because it was for research.  Others claimed the Internet would be free from regulation, etc.  They thought that because they were the early pioneers that they would control things forever.  Remember when they all got together to turn the web pages black in response to promised censorship laws?  Not only did the people in power not care, the whole protest with black web pages had to be explained to them.  The same thing is playing out in Bitcoin.  The wing nuts are on the road to obscurity but they are doing damage at the moment.

I am fine with states , governments and foundations creating regulation. You seemed to be confused with the Anarchist position and our ethics. If people want to use a regulated bitcoin , than I encourage them to do so.... as long as they do not use violence to force me to agree with their policies.

Of course most will outgrow the nonsense and turn into normal people.

You seem to be under the impression that the cypher punks represented some idealist punk teens when it consisted of older cryptologists, mathematicians, and programmers. There is nothing to outgrow as many come into anarchist ideals from a lifetime of research and philosophical reflection. Do a bit of research before misrepresenting our history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypherpunk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitfield_Diffie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Hellman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_%28activist%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hughes_%28cypherpunk%29

[HELP.org]

You seem to be under the impression that the cypher punks represented some idealist punk teens when it consisted of older cryptologists, mathematicians, and programmers. There is nothing to outgrow as many come into anarchist ideals from a lifetime of research and philosophical reflection. Do a bit of research before misrepresenting our history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypherpunk

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitfield_Diffie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Hellman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chaum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_%28activist%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hughes_%28cypherpunk%29

I am talking about the Bitcoin nut jobs specifically.  There are many reasonable people involved in Bitcoin who embrace some of those ideals.  However, there is list of agenda-pushers and nut jobs involved in Bitcoin who routinely misrepresent things such as:  Ver, Vorhees, Shrem, Rassah, Tourianski, Popescu, Mayer, etc.  These are the people who are damaging Bitcoin's reputation and misrepresent what Bitcoin is.  They are the "Al Sharpton's" of Bitcoin and they attract the type of people who scare normal people away.  These are not the same type of people as those you list above.

[inBitweTrust]

I am talking about the Bitcoin nut jobs specifically.  There are many reasonable people involved in Bitcoin who embrace some of those ideals.  However, there is list of agenda-pushers and nut jobs involved in Bitcoin who routinely misrepresent things such as:  Ver, Vorhees, Shrem, Rassah, Tourianski, Popescu, Mayer, etc.  These are the people who are damaging Bitcoin's reputation and misrepresent what Bitcoin is.  They are the "Al Sharpton's" of Bitcoin and they attract the type of people who scare normal people away.  These are not the same type of people as those you list above.

We are all part of bitcoin. I understand it is discomforting for you to acknowledge their contributions to our ecosystem. They do not solely represent Bitcoin and neither does the Bitcoin Foundation. This is a open source collaborative effort where everyone has an equal opportunity to contribute or for media exposure. You just seem bitter that they get more attention than you think they deserve. You have just as much opportunity as them to get attention.

Rather than pout, why don't you take a more positive approach to promoting your agenda and join organizations like the Bitcoin Foundation?

[Flashman]

I am talking about the Bitcoin nut jobs specifically.  There are many reasonable people involved in Bitcoin who embrace some of those ideals.  However, there is list of agenda-pushers and nut jobs involved in Bitcoin who routinely misrepresent things such as:  Ver, Vorhees, Shrem, Rassah, Tourianski, Popescu, Mayer, etc.  These are the people who are damaging Bitcoin's reputation and misrepresent what Bitcoin is.  They are the "Al Sharpton's" of Bitcoin and they attract the type of people who scare normal people away.  These are not the same type of people as those you list above.

Awww c'mon embrace the diversity, some real characters involved in BTC, like this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sgg2MvAz8I and Mr Ipad Chain

[inBitweTrust]

I am talking about the Bitcoin nut jobs specifically.  There are many reasonable people involved in Bitcoin who embrace some of those ideals.  However, there is list of agenda-pushers and nut jobs involved in Bitcoin who routinely misrepresent things such as:  Ver, Vorhees, Shrem, Rassah, Tourianski, Popescu, Mayer, etc.  These are the people who are damaging Bitcoin's reputation and misrepresent what Bitcoin is.  They are the "Al Sharpton's" of Bitcoin and they attract the type of people who scare normal people away.  These are not the same type of people as those you list above.

Awww c'mon embrace the diversity, some real characters involved in BTC, like this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sgg2MvAz8I and Mr Ipad Chain

LOL..... Exactly, keep Bitcoin weird. Don't nuetuer it and turn it into a competing paypal. Embrace diversity. Welcome choice. We don't need another inflationary currency or form of fiat as there are already many of those options available.

[HELP.org]

I am talking about the Bitcoin nut jobs specifically.  There are many reasonable people involved in Bitcoin who embrace some of those ideals.  However, there is list of agenda-pushers and nut jobs involved in Bitcoin who routinely misrepresent things such as:  Ver, Vorhees, Shrem, Rassah, Tourianski, Popescu, Mayer, etc.  These are the people who are damaging Bitcoin's reputation and misrepresent what Bitcoin is.  They are the "Al Sharpton's" of Bitcoin and they attract the type of people who scare normal people away.  These are not the same type of people as those you list above.

We are all part of bitcoin. I understand it is discomforting for you to acknowledge their contributions to our ecosystem. They do not solely represent Bitcoin and neither does the Bitcoin Foundation. This is a open source collaborative effort where everyone has an equal opportunity to contribute or for media exposure. You just seem bitter that they get more attention than you think they deserve. You have just as much opportunity as them to get attention.

Rather than pout, why don't you take a more positive approach to promoting your agenda and join organizations like the Bitcoin Foundation?

I run my own web sites and do my own thing.  What I hate is when I try to explain Bitcoin to someone and they start bringing up all the nut-job stuff.  It is embarrassing to try to explain away claims such as Bitcoin will end wars when the clown claiming it is on the agenda of a Bitcoin conference.  The comic relief of some of the stupid things you see from these people keeps me going.  Actually I bought Bitcoin.me from that Popescu clown via a broker.  A transaction that normally takes 2-3 days took 2-3 months.   

My first day in Bitcoin was reading a thread of how everyone involved in Bitcoin should be on WoW because that is the only thing that means anything.  Then I was referred to Erik Vorhees description of BTC.  Then I saw the video of the Bitfloor guy in his skull cap explaining how he lost everyone's funds.  I tried buying Bitcoin and I found a guy who used my bank but I found out he was involved in MyBitcoin (I tried to buy bitcoinme.com from the same guy and he wanted $5 million).  I ordered mining equipment from that caplepair guy.  Then people started threatening him and posting pictures of his family when he didn't deliver and I alerted the police up where he lives.  Then you have Theymos, a guy who has the emergency alert key, promoting a fake bank using the Bitcoin Foundation logo.  No wonder Satoshi dropped out.

[inBitweTrust]

I run my own web sites and do my own thing.  What I hate is when I try to explain Bitcoin to someone and they start bringing up all the nut-job stuff.  It is embarrassing to try to explain away claims such as Bitcoin will end wars when the clown claiming it is on the agenda of a Bitcoin conference.  The comic relief of some of the stupid things you see from these people keeps me going.  Actually I bought Bitcoin.me from that Popescu clown via a broker.  A transaction that normally takes 2-3 days took 2-3 months.  

My first day in Bitcoin was reading a thread of how everyone involved in Bitcoin should be on WoW because that is the only thing that means anything.  Then I was referred to Erik Vorhees description of BTC.  Then I saw the video of the Bitfloor guy in his skull cap explaining how he lost everyone's funds.  I tried buying Bitcoin and I found a guy who used my bank but I found out he was involved in MyBitcoin (I tried to buy bitcoinme.com from the same guy and he wanted $5 million).  I ordered mining equipment from that caplepair guy.  Then people started threatening him and posting pictures of his family when he didn't deliver and I alerted the police up where he lives.  Then you have Theymos, a guy who has the emergency alert key, promoting a fake bank using the Bitcoin Foundation logo.  No wonder Satoshi dropped out.

I also see a lot of "professionals" pulling ponzi operations and scamming people out of millions who actively promote regulation and get endorsed by organizations like the Bitcoin Foundation.

You are representing a distorted view of history right now as there are psychopaths, thieves, and con men in all walks of life and backgrounds.

You live in a fantasy world where "certified" corruption and "regulated" crime is acceptable and small time criminals aren't. I do not make such distinctions and actively attack either regardless of their claimed philosophical beliefs. Sociopaths and Con-men are attracted to power like moths to a flame and thus gravitate to positions of authority you seek to impose on the rest of us through voted in institutions of violence. I understand your intentions may be well placed but it is naive to believe that corruption can be eliminated from states or regulators if we just try a little harder or vote the right person in next time.

[leopard2]

Every time I see a post from Milly Bitcoin, I just want to do this:

I don't do anything when I see your posts because they are worthless.  You go around calling people "trolls" like some teenager and you complain government is too big.  No kidding, everybody knows that.  Comcast is too big too and getting support is like contacting a government office.  So what about that?

As for a foreigner trying to get in, the US has no obligation whatsoever to accommodate someone or answer their complaints.  Just like if I went to the Saudi Arabia border and started complaining if they won't let in.

Decent countries don't do that, though, because they appreciate business travel or tourists. Of course, if a country is so powerful, rich and arrogant that they can treat everyone like shit, this could happen.

It's funny though, that this always happens to people going to the US, hardly ever are Americans treated like that when they travel to Europe, for instance.

No fingerprinting, no storing of personal data for 75 years, no treatment like a heap of dung....

Btw Roger says he is paying US taxes, so he has a fucking right to enter!

[iheartubuntu]

...No, you will be "pushed out" as more reasonable people get involved...  

But it feels like you have a personal vendetta against certain community people. Instead of attacking others, you could take a different approach such as promoting the people you have trust in, people that have viewpoints and/or morals that align with your way of thinking. That would definitely be a much more positive way and you would gain friends instead of turning people off. You have the same negative vibrations in comments on other websites too. So this really isnt just about Roger. Its almost like you have become or are becoming what you most despise. And Im sure thats not you at all. Someplace maybe you were wronged, I dont know, but just sit back and think about the message you are trying to portray and whatever it is you are typing, ask yourself... will this be constructive? does this jive with you want to happen? What is it that you want to happen? Maybe thats a better question and then look at which ways, or which commenting method will help you achieve you goal faster. Anger and hate or promoting people that you side with. Thats just my 2c. I think generally we are all good people and instead of this little bickering we could just, you know, why cant we all just get along?

[Flashman]

hardly ever are Americans treated like that when they travel to Europe, for instance.

Well, as long as they plaster their baggage with Canadian flags.....

[Blazr]

I would like to point out a few more things:

1. The law states I only need to have ties to a country outside of the USA.  It doesn't need to be my country of citizenship.

2. In addition to 9 years of history with Japan, I already have strong ties to St Kitts at this point.  In St Kitts, I bought a substantial amount of real estate, have local friends, started my own local business, and have participated deeply with other local businesses.

You own a house outside of the US? Thats very unusual, I've never heard of someone being refused entry due to lack of outside ties when they own a house abroad. You should talk to a lawyer.

[HELP.org]

You live in a fantasy world where "certified" corruption and "regulated" crime is acceptable and small time criminals aren't. I do not make such distinctions and actively attack either regardless of their claimed philosophical beliefs. Sociopaths and Con-men are attracted to power like moths to a flame and thus gravitate to positions of authority you seek to impose on the rest of us through voted in institutions of violence. I understand your intentions may be well placed but it is naive to believe that corruption can be eliminated from states or regulators if we just try a little harder or vote the right person in next time.

Corruption can never be eliminated under any system.   Regulators can also never be eliminated because people don't want them to be eliminated.  People often won't do things voluntarily so it is waste of time trying to come up with a system based on voluntary compliance.   

[HELP.org]

...No, you will be "pushed out" as more reasonable people get involved...  

But it feels like you have a personal vendetta against certain community people. Instead of attacking others, you could take a different approach such as promoting the people you have trust in, people that have viewpoints and/or morals that align with your way of thinking. That would definitely be a much more positive way and you would gain friends instead of turning people off. You have the same negative vibrations in comments on other websites too. So this really isnt just about Roger. Its almost like you have become or are becoming what you most despise. And Im sure thats not you at all. Someplace maybe you were wronged, I dont know, but just sit back and think about the message you are trying to portray and whatever it is you are typing, ask yourself... will this be constructive? does this jive with you want to happen? What is it that you want to happen? Maybe thats a better question and then look at which ways, or which commenting method will help you achieve you goal faster. Anger and hate or promoting people that you side with. Thats just my 2c. I think generally we are all good people and instead of this little bickering we could just, you know, why cant we all just get along?

Yes, some of these people are damaging my investment and I don't like them.  I think many more people are starting to see through their nonsense so maybe my messages will do some good.  Of course when you start arguments with people who live in an echo chamber it often does not turn out well. 

[inBitweTrust]

Corruption can never be eliminated under any system.   Regulators can also never be eliminated because people don't want them to be eliminated.  People often won't do things voluntarily so it is waste of time trying to come up with a system based on voluntary compliance.    

You are presenting a false dichotomy. There are arguments to be had regarding levels of degree of corruption in societies and other means to enforce and regulate society that don't rely on either voluntary human good will or regulators with threats of violence.

Bitcoin is a case in point as it offers regulations and security within the blockchain based upon a combination of game theory , appealing to peoples self interest and greed, relying on cryptographic trap doors, and having a decentralized peer system to verify transactions. In this case it doesn't rely upon people voluntarily complying out of kindness as the protocol insures everyone complies regardless of intentions.

I understand this currently has limited applications but developers are already working on self regulating contracts based upon ricardian contracts using multisig trust less escrow and  oracles to offer regulation which aren't as corruptible and inefficient as traditional legal systems.

You may think we are idealistic but keep in mind Bitcoin was never supposed to work and make it thus far, and any competent engineer scoffed at the idea when it was first proposed because how ludicrous it was.... and now we are here.

Yes, some of these people are damaging my investment and I don't like them.  

There are bigger things at stake than your investment treating Bitcoin as some paypal alternative stock speculation. There are ethical and moral considerations to ponder.

So this is what I propose: We won't tell you how to use bitcoin and you allow us to peacefully carry out this experiment to fruition.

[HELP.org]

Corruption can never be eliminated under any system.   Regulators can also never be eliminated because people don't want them to be eliminated.  People often won't do things voluntarily so it is waste of time trying to come up with a system based on voluntary compliance.    

You are presenting a false dichotomy. There are arguments to be had regarding levels of degree of corruption in societies and other means to enforce and regulate society that don't rely on either voluntary human good will or regulators with threats of violence.

Bitcoin is a case in point as it offers regulations and security within the blockchain based upon a combination of game theory , appealing to peoples self interest and greed, relying on cryptographic trap doors, and having a decentralized peer system to verify transactions. In this case it doesn't rely upon people voluntarily complying out of kindness as the protocol insures everyone complies regardless of intentions.

I understand this currently has limited applications but developers are already working on self regulating contracts based upon ricardian contracts using multisig trust less escrow and  oracles to offer regulation which aren't as corruptible and inefficient as traditional legal systems.

You may think we are idealistic but keep in mind Bitcoin was never supposed to work and make it thus far, and any competent engineer scoffed at the idea when it was first proposed because how ludicrous it was.... and now we are here.

Yes, some of these people are damaging my investment and I don't like them.  

There are bigger things at stake than your investment treating Bitcoin as some paypal alternative stock speculation. There are ethical and moral considerations to ponder.

So this is what I propose: We won't tell you how to use bitcoin and you allow us to peacefully carry out this experiment to fruition.

Bitcoin is here, the agenda people are pushing is still in the same place.  The usefulness has to do with the technology and has nothing to do with the fantasy agenda.  The part about autonomous companies running off the Blockchain is also a fantasy.  While it is true that some things can be automated off the blockchain and those things are very useful, a company what provides goods and services is still made up of people and those people perform those services in some jurisdiction and they are subject to laws in that jurisdiction.  This hand-waiving "automated companies" claim is part of the misinformation by the agenda pushers.  these technologies are very useful on their own and attaching them to some unrealistic agenda hurts their adoption.

As for Crazy loaf, anyone who doesn't agree with some stupid fantasy agenda is a "government troll"  and anyone who disagrees is "vomiting."  It is funny how Trace Mayer and Erik Vorhees have used the exact same "vomiting" line when I challenge their nonsense. 

[freedombit]

damaging my investment

Enough said. And in response, a great Satoshi quote:

If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.

To everyone building the "fantasy agenda", avoid this distractions and use incidents like these for motivation to continue building the dream. It is happening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4_gNRkh7zA

[cyberpinoy]

America is ran by a bunch of bail me out bankers, wallstreet brats and the military industrial complex, the people who live thier are just the ones forking the bill for all the rich greedy assholes in office.

[jbreher]

Bitcoin is here, the agenda people are pushing is still in the same place.  The usefulness has to do with the technology and has nothing to do with the fantasy agenda.  The part about autonomous companies running off the Blockchain is also a fantasy.  While it is true that some things can be automated off the blockchain and those things are very useful, a company what provides goods and services is still made up of people and those people perform those services in some jurisdiction and they are subject to laws in that jurisdiction.  This hand-waiving "automated companies" claim is part of the misinformation by the agenda pushers.  these technologies are very useful on their own and attaching them to some unrealistic agenda hurts their adoption.

Jeeze - you've got it all figured out, don't ya?

Here's the deal. No matter how much whining you do, you're not likely to halt the trajectory of those who are pushing Bitcoin as part of an ideologically held self consistent set of principles for changing the world. Must suck, what with looking out of your mental cage, fully impotent to stop free people from exercising their freedoms.

I've usually found it best to avoid butting my head repeatedly against an immovable object -- that whole serenity, courage, wisdom bit -- but feel free to knock yourself out. We unwashed heathens will just continue to ignore your naysaying, and continue herding spontaneous order out of crypto chaos. Your welcome.

[HELP.org]

Bitcoin is here, the agenda people are pushing is still in the same place.  The usefulness has to do with the technology and has nothing to do with the fantasy agenda.  The part about autonomous companies running off the Blockchain is also a fantasy.  While it is true that some things can be automated off the blockchain and those things are very useful, a company what provides goods and services is still made up of people and those people perform those services in some jurisdiction and they are subject to laws in that jurisdiction.  This hand-waiving "automated companies" claim is part of the misinformation by the agenda pushers.  these technologies are very useful on their own and attaching them to some unrealistic agenda hurts their adoption.

 you're not likely to halt the trajectory of those who are pushing Bitcoin as part of an ideologically held self consistent set of principles for changing the world.

There is no "trajectory," there is a small number of mentally ill people who are in an echo chamber.  Nobody listens to your agenda which is why you post your nonsense in a Bitcoin form.  That is why erik Vorhees leads off all his papers with discussions of the technology and why Ver keeps trying to associate himself with satoshi.  The so-called principals cannot stand on their own.

You have made the point that I have been discussing.  The people I am talking about are not promoting Bitcoin, they are promoting a fantasy which you call a "self consistent set of principles for changing the world."  Something which has zero chance of success which is why it is detrimental to lump it in with the Bitcoin technology.

This is how you look to normal people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVHLHfoWEHE&t=4m22s

[siameze]

Here is how Help.org thinks we look like:

[QuestionAuthority]

Here is how Help.org thinks we look like:

He is a fool or a brainwashed government puppet (which, I suppose, is the same thing). Why do you not have him on Ignore?

[siameze]

He is a fool or a brainwashed government puppet (which, I suppose, is the same thing). Why do you not have him on Ignore?

I believe in free speech for the most part. I don't necessarily dislike him/her but the caveman comment a few posts back just gave me pause. Not sure what to make of that outlook.

[HELP.org]

Here is how Help.org thinks we look like:

Actually I always think of that Dead Milkmen song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyaK3jo4Sl4

Code:

We went to the Philly Pizza Company
And ordered some hot tea
The waitress said "Well no
We only have it iced"
So we jumped up on the table
And shouted "anarchy"

[siameze]

As I stated previously Help.org, someone I respect highly values your opinions obviously and I do enjoy your posts. That particular statement just felt a bit ad hominem. It takes all kinds though for sure.

[QuestionAuthority]

He is a fool or a brainwashed government puppet (which, I suppose, is the same thing). Why do you not have him on Ignore?

I believe in free speech for the most part. I don't necessarily dislike him/her but the caveman comment a few posts back just gave me pause. Not sure what to make of that outlook.

I'm the OP. Obviously I believe in free speech or this thread would have been closed shortly after Roger decided to present documents proving what happened. This thread went way off-topic after that point. Help.org is one of those people that is fully entrenched in his belief of his superiority. Those types are far more disconcerting than trolls because they really believe the nonsense they spout and are willing to fight to the death to support their scary view of the world. If you don't support censorship and don't want him to spew forth more of his vomit the only thing left to do is ignore him.

[siameze]

He is a fool or a brainwashed government puppet (which, I suppose, is the same thing). Why do you not have him on Ignore?

I believe in free speech for the most part. I don't necessarily dislike him/her but the caveman comment a few posts back just gave me pause. Not sure what to make of that outlook.

I'm the OP. Obviously I believe in free speech or this thread would have been closed shortly after Roger decided to present documents proving what happened. This thread went way off-topic after that point. Help.org is one of those people that is fully entrenched in his belief of his superiority. Those types are far more disconcerting than trolls because they really believe the nonsense they spout and are willing to fight to the death to support their scary view of the world. If you don't support censorship and don't want him to spew forth more of his vomit the only thing left to do is ignore him.

I personally can't ignore the numerous contributions that Roger has made to the Bitcoin community, and I feel if we judge people for a few mistakes then it is less likely that we will get the same in return. And we might miss out on some game-changing innovations.

[QuestionAuthority]

He is a fool or a brainwashed government puppet (which, I suppose, is the same thing). Why do you not have him on Ignore?

I believe in free speech for the most part. I don't necessarily dislike him/her but the caveman comment a few posts back just gave me pause. Not sure what to make of that outlook.

I'm the OP. Obviously I believe in free speech or this thread would have been closed shortly after Roger decided to present documents proving what happened. This thread went way off-topic after that point. Help.org is one of those people that is fully entrenched in his belief of his superiority. Those types are far more disconcerting than trolls because they really believe the nonsense they spout and are willing to fight to the death to support their scary view of the world. If you don't support censorship and don't want him to spew forth more of his vomit the only thing left to do is ignore him.

I personally can't ignore the numerous contributions that Roger has made to the Bitcoin community, and I feel if we judge people for a few mistakes then it is less likely that we will get the same in return. And we might miss out on some game-changing innovations.

I completely agree.

[jbreher]

Bitcoin is here, the agenda people are pushing is still in the same place.  The usefulness has to do with the technology and has nothing to do with the fantasy agenda.  The part about autonomous companies running off the Blockchain is also a fantasy.  While it is true that some things can be automated off the blockchain and those things are very useful, a company what provides goods and services is still made up of people and those people perform those services in some jurisdiction and they are subject to laws in that jurisdiction.  This hand-waiving "automated companies" claim is part of the misinformation by the agenda pushers.  these technologies are very useful on their own and attaching them to some unrealistic agenda hurts their adoption.

 you're not likely to halt the trajectory of those who are pushing Bitcoin as part of an ideologically held self consistent set of principles for changing the world.

There is no "trajectory," there is a small number of mentally ill people who are in an echo chamber.  Nobody listens to your agenda which is why you post your nonsense in a Bitcoin form.  That is why erik Vorhees leads off all his papers with discussions of the technology and why Ver keeps trying to associate himself with satoshi.  The so-called principals cannot stand on their own.

You have made the point that I have been discussing.  The people I am talking about are not promoting Bitcoin, they are promoting a fantasy which you call a "self consistent set of principles for changing the world."  Something which has zero chance of success which is why it is detrimental to lump it in with the Bitcoin technology.

This is how you look to normal people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVHLHfoWEHE&t=4m22s

I look like an absurdist sketch comedy troupe? Eeeeeeexcellent. I can't imagine a better cover under which to foment my subversive plot. My plot to work toward a world where I can merely be left alone (e.g. a world which has a relatively reduced level of incursions into my liberties, and less violent coercive mandate from so-called "authority").

There is no single trajectory, there are uncounted legions of individuals with their own trajectories. Perhaps you are so entrenched in your collectivism you did not notice I spoke of behaviors of individuals seeking their own path -- not an artificially imposed mandate to march in a single direction. And the real point is that you are absolutely powerless to stop us. We will each work for that which we value. By our individual actions we change the world.

_You_ claim that we are not promoting Bitcoin. Yet you offer no supporting evidence to buttress that naked assertion. Further, you acknowledge that actions of Ver, Voorhees, Shrem, and others who you now demonize were indeed important to getting this thing off the ground. Your statements are inconsistent.

Aside #1 - principles, principals. ("The so-called principals cannot stand on their own." after discussing certain people obscures your message)

Aside #2 - funny you should claim that "nobody listens to your agenda" when it is quite obvious you are listening.

Aside #3 - I worry the impending IoT revolution is going to leave you apoplectic. The path from 'auto restocking refrigerators' to 'autonomous corporations' is not as long and tortuous as you seem to think.

I hate to admonish you as 'gramps', because I sense we are of proximate generation. But you seem to be stuck in yesterday's reality. There is political and social change happening in this world. While the overlords are moving to tighten their grip, the net motion of the populace is towards liberty. The old social structures will change. And if crypto currency becomes widespread (an event which I believe is likely - though I acknowledge opinion of other rational people may differ), then the central banks will lose a corresponding amount of power. No more riding the backs of the populace through the hidden tax called 'inflation', and government will necessarily shrink. IOW, yes, Bitcoin does have the power to bring about a move towards liberty.

Actually, whichever side is dominant, change be a-comin'. Best be ready to adapt. The libertarian hordes are working toward a freer world. What can you do to stop us? Anything but complain?

[HELP.org]

Actually, whichever side is dominant, change be a-comin'. Best be ready to adapt. The libertarian hordes are working toward a freer world. What can you do to stop us? Anything but complain?

The reality is that people have been seeing less freedoms and people are moving away from libertarian ideals with the help of technology.  I think that is bad and I like the position of Bitcoin advocate Preston Byrne and people like him since he deals in reality.

In any case, back to developing my Bitcoin web sites while I try to keep track of some legal issues on the side:

http://www.coindesk.com/fincen-bitcoin-miners-need-not-register-money-transmitters/

I am also trying to stop this guy from registering a trademark on "Bitcoin" because he wants to corner the market on items with Bitcoin logos:
http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91219797&pty=OPP&eno=2

[siameze]

I am also trying to stop this guy from registering a trademark on "Bitcoin" because he wants to corner the market on items with Bitcoin logos:
http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91219797&pty=OPP&eno=2

That ought to be interesting. Didn't the dogecoin camp already go through this one?

[bf4btc]

He is a fool or a brainwashed government puppet (which, I suppose, is the same thing). Why do you not have him on Ignore?

I believe in free speech for the most part. I don't necessarily dislike him/her but the caveman comment a few posts back just gave me pause. Not sure what to make of that outlook.

I'm the OP. Obviously I believe in free speech or this thread would have been closed shortly after Roger decided to present documents proving what happened. This thread went way off-topic after that point. Help.org is one of those people that is fully entrenched in his belief of his superiority. Those types are far more disconcerting than trolls because they really believe the nonsense they spout and are willing to fight to the death to support their scary view of the world. If you don't support censorship and don't want him to spew forth more of his vomit the only thing left to do is ignore him.

I personally can't ignore the numerous contributions that Roger has made to the Bitcoin community, and I feel if we judge people for a few mistakes then it is less likely that we will get the same in return. And we might miss out on some game-changing innovations.

The mistakes he made were long before his involvement in bitcoin and were always public. There is no reason for anyone in the bitcoin community to be blaming him for any of his mistakes now.

I do however understand the USG's point of view as I am pretty sure that he has a lot of family in the US which would give him an incentive to overstay his visa

[jbreher]

http://www.coindesk.com/fincen-bitcoin-miners-need-not-register-money-transmitters/

I am also trying to stop this guy from registering a trademark on "Bitcoin" because he wants to corner the market on items with Bitcoin logos:
http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=91219797&pty=OPP&eno=2

Thanks for your contributions. Sincerely. (I knew there was a reason I didn't put you on ignore. Your dedication was evident in other ways than these.)

You pull on the corners you deem best, we'll (individually) pull on the corners we (individually) deem best. And speaking of 'best', best we not fight each other. But I'm not toning down my message just to make your conversations with suzy creamcheese any more streamlined.

[BADecker]

The point in all the above^^ stuff is clear. Governments are needed to protect us all from, say, terrorists (each other?). But once they get into control, governments wind up becoming the terrorists that they were expected to protect their citizens from.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

You can find evidence that Stalin might have caused the deaths of as many as 60 to 100 million people in Eastern and Northern Europe (including parts of Asia). There are some statistics that suggest democide (death of citizens by their own government) in 1900 exceeded 200,000,000 deaths.

[jbreher]

There are some statistics that suggest democide (death of citizens by their own government) in 1900 the 20th century exceeded 100,000,000 deaths.

FTFY

And _that's_ an important nit of knowledge. Government brought you that.

[BADecker]

There are some statistics that suggest democide (death of citizens by their own government) in 1900 the 20th century exceeded 100,000,000 deaths.

FTFY

And _that's_ an important nit of knowledge. Government brought you that.

Sorry. Forgot the "s" on "1900."

[HELP.org]

The point in all the above^^ stuff is clear. Governments are needed to protect us all from, say, terrorists (each other?). But once they get into control, governments wind up becoming the terrorists that they were expected to protect their citizens from.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

You can find evidence that Stalin might have caused the deaths of as many as 60 to 100 million people in Eastern and Northern Europe (including parts of Asia). There are some statistics that suggest democide (death of citizens by their own government) in 1900 exceeded 200,000,000 deaths.

Apparently you are implying governments should be eliminated, that it will solve this problem, and that no other problems will result from your solution.  That is where the logic of these things falls apart.