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Question: Does my crypto meet your definition of 'decentralized'?
Yes - 26 (55.3%)
No - 21 (44.7%)
Total Voters: 47

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Author Topic: Is my crypto decentralized?  (Read 3366 times)
Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:50:10 AM
 #81

Just a discussion thread then, to allow everyone to make their points and be heard. It is bitcoiners you are trying to get the opinion of, champions of the first decentralised blockchain. At least I was, before the sabotage.

I thought that's exactly what this thread (and the two before it) have been.  No?

No.

Members of the BTS community saw fit that exactly that was prevented. There are no bitcoiners here. That is why I made the suggestion.
Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 03:56:22 AM
 #82

I will leave it with you. Hopefully, you'll find the bitcointalk working overs of dans previous blogposts. Or I'll come back to walls of text containing a series of ill fitting analogies  Wink I'd prefer the former but I know you won't let me down stan   Cheesy
StanLarimer
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January 13, 2015, 04:09:27 AM
 #83

Can you post any examples of these working overs?

My pleasure:  bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=83

This is a free ticket on bitsharestalk. You led me to believe a wider audience on reddit and bitcointalk had scrutinised Dans claims. Particularly of his blog posts.

Yes, I'm digging up the links to those too.
The bitsharestalk.org threads were just already all on one page and easy to grab.
(And are open to the public too - just a click away.)


http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rru9h/how_to_measure_the_decentralization_of_bitcoin/
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2rz0ol/bitasset_yield_now_shown_at_bitsharesblocks/
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2rpear/nothing_at_stake_nothing_to_fear/

DecentralizeEconomics
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January 13, 2015, 07:01:49 AM
 #84


Guys like xeldel make it possible to hire marketers, celebrities, or old rocket scientists who don't have a clue how to run a delegate.
It's a running joke, but you are right, it's clear I'm using it too much.

By centralizing the forgers, which is exactly what you are doing whether you want to call it that or not, you are practicing a form of wealth redistribution (aka COMMUNISM!).

You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

COMMUNISM is the perfect word to describe Bitshares.  Communism is a centralized, hierarchical form of governance where wealth is transfered by force from the unprivileged to the privileged.  It is the substitution of competing private enterprises with one state controlled private enterprise.  It is creation of a system which combines political and capital bureaucracy into one all-powerful bureaucracy.  These two forces (political and capital) which should be opposed to each other are consolidated into one creating a "new master class" (101 delegates).  This "new master class" is in fact a state capitalist monopoly which centralizes its rule over the people under the auspices of "economy" and "efficiency" for the "betterment of the society."

In NXT, there isn't a government.  
That's fine.  We are reengineering government.  You don't have to participate.

A Communist government.  A government controlled and dominated by the privileged elite.  I don't want to participate in such a scheme.

In a PoS system, THEY ARE ACTUALLY INVOLVED REGARDLESS OF THEIR SIZE!

The whole point of my article is that kind of involvement is meaningless and imparts exactly zero additional security.  The point was:

No outsider, much less the same outsider, will get honored with another turn in the same confirmation window to weigh in on whether any particular transaction should be confirmed.  Thus, all transactions are confirmed by insiders.

True for Bitshares.  FALSE FOR NXT!
Please show me an example where that has ever happened.

You said "No outsider".  That is a false statement.  There are 1 Billion NXT.  1 Billion divided by 101 equals 9.9 million.  People with less than 9.9 million NXT have forged a block.  If you have 1 million NXT, you forge 2.08 blocks a day.  There is a high chance an individual with less than 9.9 million NXT would add a block that would help confirm transactions.

What are you talking about? ... With PoW, you participate in consensus if you contribute hashpower.  With PoS, you participate in consensus if you own coins and forge.  

There are not just "101 pools of coins" in PoS.  
I was being generous, allowing you to take credit for the Top 101 pools of your coins as having some some impact on the actual outcome in the validation of transactions.  I suspect it's less. Prove me wrong and I'll eat a whole coconut cream pie.

What you are advocating is the redistribution of forging power.  Where you and I differ is that you believe it is necessary for the State (101 delegates) to intervene and redistribute forging power to themselves and I believe forging power should be left in the hands of its rightful owners and the free market should determine its allocation.  If an individual forges one block a day, does that qualify as worthy?  If he forges one block a week, does that also qualify as adding decentralization to the chain?  You have gone down an extremely slippery slope in disenfranchising forgers based on your opinion of their "contribution" to the decentralization of the system under the auspices of "economy" and "efficiency".  IMO, a forger who contributes one block a day to the chain adds in its decentralization.  Personally, I believe a forger who forges one block a week adds a sizable quantity of decentralization.  In NXT to forge one block a day, you need 500,000 NXT.  500,000 * 101 = 50,500,000 NXT.  There is over eight times as much NXT forging.  I believe that constitutes as more than "101 pools of coins" securing the network.


I would like to say this.  Some people probably think that I'm opposed to Bitshares because I'm a NXT supporter.  This is not true.  I am though strongly opposed to the taking advantage of people who are uninformed and who are not economically privileged.  This is IMO what Bitshares' DPoS algorithm does.  People purchase Bitshares believing that it's decentralized, their vote actually matters, and their money will be protected.  The truth of the matter is none of this is actually true.  It is controlled by 101 individuals (maybe? who really knows).  The wealthiest stakeholders dominate voting to such a degree it creates a blockchain plutocracy.  Their money is taxed via inflation to support the largest stakeholders.  Some people will claim the delegates won't be the wealthiest stakeholders.  I say, "Don't be naive."  They have the means to escape the blockchain taxation by occupying delegate positions which control more stake than they own.  The Bitshares' devs actually encourage individuals to occupy multiple delegate positions.  I have no doubt that this will occur and what is being proposed as a blockchain "meritocracy" is really a blockchain plutocracy which will result in the disenfranchisement of the smaller stakeholders to the benefit of the ruling elite.

"Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties." - Areopagitica
FandangledGizmo
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January 13, 2015, 09:13:17 AM
 #85

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/13/Decentralization-of-Nxt-vs-BitShares/

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60% of all blocks are produced by just 15 people

I wish NXT luck with their model and I hope it scales well in the future but NXT doesn't seem currently very decentralized imo.
Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 09:16:15 AM
 #86

Can you post any examples of these working overs?

My pleasure:  bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=83

This is a free ticket on bitsharestalk. You led me to believe a wider audience on reddit and bitcointalk had scrutinised Dans claims. Particularly of his blog posts.

Yes, I'm digging up the links to those too.
The bitsharestalk.org threads were just already all on one page and easy to grab.
(And are open to the public too - just a click away.)


http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rru9h/how_to_measure_the_decentralization_of_bitcoin/
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2rz0ol/bitasset_yield_now_shown_at_bitsharesblocks/
http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2rpear/nothing_at_stake_nothing_to_fear/



None of these are more than 7 days old, one of them a day old. I am getting the feeling there has been no external discussion of BTS. Which makes sense, it explains how your claim to decentralisation has gone unchallenged for so long. 
Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 09:17:06 AM
 #87

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/13/Decentralization-of-Nxt-vs-BitShares/

Quote
60% of all blocks are produced by just 15 people

I wish NXT luck with their model and I hope it scales well in the future but NXT doesn't seem currently very decentralized imo.

Thank you, I think you have been listening. With all crypto still in bootstrapping, it is the future picture that counts.
DecentralizeEconomics
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January 13, 2015, 09:25:08 AM
 #88

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/13/Decentralization-of-Nxt-vs-BitShares/

Quote
60% of all blocks are produced by just 15 people

I wish NXT luck with their model and I hope it scales well in the future but NXT doesn't seem currently very decentralized imo.

OMG! FREE MARKET CAPITALISM!!!

SOMEBODY REDISTRIBUTE SOMETHING!!!!!!!!

What matters is not how MUCH stake any individual possesses, but how those with the most are or aren't able to disenfranchise everyone else.  All systems will evolve into 20% of the group owning 80%.  If you attempt to redistribute forging rights, regardless of the reason, you are effectively redistributing wealth and will create a system where those in power will maintain their power through manipulation and not because they earned it.

"Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties." - Areopagitica
achimsmile
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January 13, 2015, 09:31:31 AM
 #89

I think this topic is funny.

Here's an example why:

Let's say community 1 and 2 both have 1000 active stakeholders.

Community 1 has no delegates
Community 2 has 101 delegates

In community 1, everyone can process a block. 60% of all blocks are processed by the same 15 stakeholders. But The total amount of block processors is 200 (example).
In community 2, only the 101 delegates can process blocks. Each block is verified by 101 delegates. But the total amount of block processors is only 101.

Now comes the fun part:

Imagine that community 1 and 2 both reach 1M active stakeholders.

In community 1, number of block processors grows naturally with community size / distribution.
In community 2, number of block processors stays 101.


What people don't get:
In community 2, Multiple stakeholders are delegating their power to one Delegate.
The bigger the community get's, the more centralized it will become.
This is the very opposite of decentralization. I don't get how people don't see this.

Daedelus (OP)
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January 13, 2015, 09:46:51 AM
 #90

I think this topic is funny.

Here's an example why:

Let's say community 1 and 2 both have 1000 active stakeholders.

Community 1 has no delegates
Community 2 has 101 delegates

In community 1, everyone can process a block. 60% of all blocks are processed by the same 15 stakeholders. But The total amount of block processors is 200 (example).
In community 2, only the 101 delegates can process blocks. Each block is verified by 101 delegates. But the total amount of block processors is only 101.

Now comes the fun part:

Imagine that community 1 and 2 both reach 1M active stakeholders.

In community 1, number of block processors grows naturally with community size / distribution.
In community 2, number of block processors stays 101.


What people don't get:
In community 2, Multiple stakeholders are delegating their power to one Delegate.
The bigger the community get's, the more centralized it will become.
This is the very opposite of decentralization. I don't get how people don't see this.



I have repeated this 4-5 times. I think, as I said above, it is because Bitshares have developed in isolation from crypt  so the idea of "sufficient decentralisation" has gone unchallenged. But they won't contemplate any form of discussion with the wider community to check if the majority agree.


The purpose of this thread is now redundant, if you wish to continue discussion please use one of the existing threads posted above by Stan or start your own.

Thread is locked, I can unlock it to discuss the results of any community consultation on the subject of decentralisation. Feel free to PM.
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