Why I used to trust Patrick Harnett

[WifeOfStarfish]

Joel... you're being an argumentative asshole. Patrick is willing to provide ample personal information to anyone depositing with him which provides plenty of recourse should anything happen. Why not troll some where else?

+1

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[JoelKatz]

Maybe his profits aren't that great. Nor are those of his lendees, if you take into account all the risks attached... Maybe that's precisely the point that they are realizing now...

So now the theory is that he is doing all of this work and taking all of this risk, and all he's getting for it is miniscule profits? This again boils down to him being an idiot.

[WifeOfStarfish]

Maybe his profits aren't that great. Nor are those of his lendees, if you take into account all the risks attached... Maybe that's precisely the point that they are realizing now...

So now the theory is that he is doing all of this work and taking all of this risk, and all he's getting for it is miniscule profits? This again boils down to him being an idiot.

I've just reported you for being abusive. Maybe one day the moderators here will actually clean up this forum and make it a place anyone can post without being abused. Shame on you.

[JoelKatz]

Joel... you're being an argumentative asshole. Patrick is willing to provide ample personal information to anyone depositing with him which provides plenty of recourse should anything happen. Why not troll some where else?

I'm not being argumentative. I'm only repeating the same argument because I have yet to get any rational response to it. My point has nothing to do with his personal information or recourse. People had Madoff's personal information and he appeared to have large assets that would provide recourse. All of that is just not relevant. People think that someone can't be a criminal just because they know them. Well, guess what, criminals don't live in cement cages they do not leave, at least not before they're caught. Scammers know how to convince people they are ordinary, trustworthy folks. And many criminals don't care to hide their identity -- especially since nobody has yet been prosecuted for a Bitcoin-related theft.

But more importantly, my point is that there is no known explanation for how he could be doing what he claims to be doing other than that it's a scam. And there is no imaginable other explanation for why he would need or want a constantly increasing supply of other people's money at exorbitant interest rates.

There is simply no way a rational businessman would take all this risk and pay such high rates unless he was making a significant profit. And the first thing a rational businessman would do when making a significant profit is pay off his absurdly-high interest debts. And if the risk is high and he nevertheless had the funds to cover losses, the most rational think to do with those funds would be to loan them and thereby get rid of his high-interest debt. No rational person would have $50,000 in a bank account and still borrow the equivalent of $50,000 in BTC at exorbitant rates.

The only known explanation is that it's a scam.

Do you have some kind of response to this argument? Or are you trolling?

[finkleshnorts]

It was never "constantly increasing," for one.

[JoelKatz]

Maybe his profits aren't that great. Nor are those of his lendees, if you take into account all the risks attached... Maybe that's precisely the point that they are realizing now...

So now the theory is that he is doing all of this work and taking all of this risk, and all he's getting for it is miniscule profits? This again boils down to him being an idiot.

I've just reported you for being abusive. Maybe one day the moderators here will actually clean up this forum and make it a place anyone can post without being abused. Shame on you.

How is that abusive exactly? I'm not saying he is an idiot. I'm saying that argument boils down to arguing that he's an idiot. Obviously, it's an argument I don't accept.

What is abusive, however, is calling other people abusive to shut them up or make them feel or look bad. And telling people you're reporting them to the mods to silence a view you disagree with is bullying. I don't think anyone finds your feigned fragility convincing.

[Kluge]

This isn't a boxing match, and the opponent isn't exerting himself. Y'all can't tire him out by letting him continue to punch at you, heh.

[eroxors]

Joel... you're being an argumentative asshole. Patrick is willing to provide ample personal information to anyone depositing with him which provides plenty of recourse should anything happen. Why not troll some where else?

I'm not being argumentative. I'm only repeating the same argument because I have yet to get any rational response to it. My point has nothing to do with his personal information or recourse. People had Madoff's personal information and he appeared to have large assets that would provide recourse. All of that is just not relevant. People think that someone can't be a criminal just because they know them. Well, guess what, criminals don't live in cement cages they do not leave, at least not before they're caught. Scammers know how to convince people they are ordinary, trustworthy folks. And many criminals don't care to hide their identity -- especially since nobody has yet been prosecuted for a Bitcoin-related theft.

But more importantly, my point is that there is no known explanation for how he could be doing what he claims to be doing other than that it's a scam. And there is no imaginable other explanation for why he would need or want a constantly increasing supply of other people's money at exorbitant interest rates.

There is simply no way a rational businessman would take all this risk and pay such high rates unless he was making a significant profit. And the first thing a rational businessman would do when making a significant profit is pay off his absurdly-high interest debts. And if the risk is high and he nevertheless had the funds to cover losses, the most rational think to do with those funds would be to loan them and thereby get rid of his high-interest debt. No rational person would have $50,000 in a bank account and still borrow the equivalent of $50,000 in BTC at exorbitant rates.

The only known explanation is that it's a scam.

Do you have some kind of response to this argument? Or are you trolling?

What the hell is your problem? Do you think you are intellectually superior to everyone else? Is your life so miserable that you devote pages of ranting to a service you aren't even invested in?

[JoelKatz]

What the hell is your problem? Do you think you are intellectually superior to everyone else? Is your life so miserable that you devote pages of ranting to a service you aren't even invested in?

If you're not going to respond to me, please don't pretend to.

I explained what my problem is. Here it is again in case you missed it even though you quoted it:

There is simply no way a rational businessman would take all this risk and pay such high rates unless he was making a significant profit. And the first thing a rational businessman would do when making a significant profit is pay off his absurdly-high interest debts. And if the risk is high and he nevertheless had the funds to cover losses, the most rational think to do with those funds would be to loan them and thereby get rid of his high-interest debt. No rational person would have $50,000 in a bank account and still borrow the equivalent of $50,000 in BTC at exorbitant rates.

If you have a rational response to that argument, I'd love to hear it.

[CoinCidental]

Joel... you're being an argumentative asshole. Patrick is willing to provide ample personal information to anyone depositing with him which provides plenty of recourse should anything happen. Why not troll some where else?

personal information is about as useful as yellow snow when an investment defaults
Pirate has had all his details published multiple times and even  sat in the same room with people a few weeks before his "investment defaulted" scammed   everybodys money

its like pirate part 2 , why does anyone  need to borrow money at crazy rates if you are capable of making insane profits ??

joel is being attacked for asking very standard questions about the security of an investment by a few supporters of said investment

does any of this sound familiar yet ?

[finkleshnorts]

I don't think anyone finds your feigned fragility convincing.

[WifeOfStarfish]

Maybe his profits aren't that great. Nor are those of his lendees, if you take into account all the risks attached... Maybe that's precisely the point that they are realizing now...

So now the theory is that he is doing all of this work and taking all of this risk, and all he's getting for it is miniscule profits? This again boils down to him being an idiot.

I've just reported you for being abusive. Maybe one day the moderators here will actually clean up this forum and make it a place anyone can post without being abused. Shame on you.

How is that abusive exactly? I'm not saying he is an idiot. I'm saying that argument boils down to arguing that he's an idiot. Obviously, it's an argument I don't accept.

What is abusive, however, is calling other people abusive to shut them up or make them feel or look bad. And telling people you're reporting them to the mods to silence a view you disagree with is bullying. I don't think anyone finds your feigned fragility convincing.

If you met me face to face you would not accuse me of ''feigned fragility''. Do you understand that the more you are toxic on this forum, the less the people you want to hear from will post? You have lost Starfish for starters: he has had enough.

[WifeOfStarfish]

Joel... you're being an argumentative asshole. Patrick is willing to provide ample personal information to anyone depositing with him which provides plenty of recourse should anything happen. Why not troll some where else?

I'm not being argumentative. I'm only repeating the same argument because I have yet to get any rational response to it. My point has nothing to do with his personal information or recourse. People had Madoff's personal information and he appeared to have large assets that would provide recourse. All of that is just not relevant. People think that someone can't be a criminal just because they know them. Well, guess what, criminals don't live in cement cages they do not leave, at least not before they're caught. Scammers know how to convince people they are ordinary, trustworthy folks. And many criminals don't care to hide their identity -- especially since nobody has yet been prosecuted for a Bitcoin-related theft.

But more importantly, my point is that there is no known explanation for how he could be doing what he claims to be doing other than that it's a scam. And there is no imaginable other explanation for why he would need or want a constantly increasing supply of other people's money at exorbitant interest rates.

There is simply no way a rational businessman would take all this risk and pay such high rates unless he was making a significant profit. And the first thing a rational businessman would do when making a significant profit is pay off his absurdly-high interest debts. And if the risk is high and he nevertheless had the funds to cover losses, the most rational think to do with those funds would be to loan them and thereby get rid of his high-interest debt. No rational person would have $50,000 in a bank account and still borrow the equivalent of $50,000 in BTC at exorbitant rates.

The only known explanation is that it's a scam.

Do you have some kind of response to this argument? Or are you trolling?

What the hell is your problem? Do you think you are intellectually superior to everyone else? Is your life so miserable that you devote pages of ranting to a service you aren't even invested in?

+1

[WifeOfStarfish]

Maybe his profits aren't that great. Nor are those of his lendees, if you take into account all the risks attached... Maybe that's precisely the point that they are realizing now...

So now the theory is that he is doing all of this work and taking all of this risk, and all he's getting for it is miniscule profits? This again boils down to him being an idiot.

I've just reported you for being abusive. Maybe one day the moderators here will actually clean up this forum and make it a place anyone can post without being abused. Shame on you.

How is that abusive exactly? I'm not saying he is an idiot. I'm saying that argument boils down to arguing that he's an idiot. Obviously, it's an argument I don't accept.

What is abusive, however, is calling other people abusive to shut them up or make them feel or look bad. And telling people you're reporting them to the mods to silence a view you disagree with is bullying. I don't think anyone finds your feigned fragility convincing.

You are the most detestable individual I have ever come across on the internet

[gene]

If you met me face to face you would not accuse me of ''feigned fragility''. Do you understand that the more you are toxic on this forum, the less the people you want to hear from will post? You have lost Starfish for starters: he has had enough.

The more you evade the simple questions with distractions, the more obvious your shilling becomes.

The questions remain, and there is only one plausible explanation. You certainly aren't offering an alternative.

[WifeOfStarfish]

This isn't a boxing match, and the opponent isn't exerting himself. Y'all can't tire him out by letting him continue to punch at you, heh.

You're right. It's hard to stay detached/neutral though when someone is shitting on your husband. I will try however.

P.S: must be the ''Cleveland Steamer'' act....

[Kluge]

This isn't a boxing match, and the opponent isn't exerting himself. Y'all can't tire him out by letting him continue to punch at you, heh.

You're right. It's hard to stay detached/neutral though when someone is shitting on your husband. I will try however.

Interesting mental image.

[gene]

However, I truly hate to see Patrick's name being drug through the mud.

When you run a high-profile "credit-rating" and "investment" operation without explaining what is going on and failing to answer simple questions, you must expect your reputation to suffer.

FWIW, I don't think for a second think he is scamming anybody. I know everybody said the same thing about Pirate, but I believe that 1% a week (R.I.P. Starfish ), as outrageous an IRL rate as it may be, is very manageable given what I've gathered about the lending economy here. For now, at least. Of course it isn't (wasn't) risk-free, but Patrick seems intent on treating his depositors right, even when it costs him.

Why anyone (besides a miner) would borrow bitcoins is beyond me, though. Scary bull market is scary.

"Ourageous" yet "very manageable."  What is it about bitcoin that makes people suspend all disbelief and take on magical, pixie dust thinking?

Look, the reality is simple but ugly: the "lending economy" here is a cesspool of scams.

[finkleshnorts]

However, I truly hate to see Patrick's name being drug through the mud.

When you run a high-profile "credit-rating" and "investment" operation without explaining what is going on and failing to answer simple questions, you must expect your reputation to suffer.

I know, it's the inevitable gauntlet. You are correct.

"Ourageous" yet "very manageable."   What is it about bitcoin that makes people suspend all disbelief and take on magical, pixie dust thinking?

I wouldn't know. I'm not the one borrowing an appreciating asset at very high rates and subsequently repaying every last penny. Strangely enough, this is happening every day on these forums.

Look, the reality is simple but ugly: the "lending economy" here is a cesspool of scams.

Hmm... Recently I lent 40 BTC to a moderator here, who repayed ~12% interest after about a month. It was easy peasy.

What do you have to say about that? If I had more bitcoins, I could make more loans. It's pretty simple.

[JoelKatz]

You are the most detestable individual I have ever come across on the internet

Name calling is not a substitute for a reasoned response. One more time in case you missed it:

There is simply no way a rational businessman would take all this risk and pay such high rates unless he was making a significant profit. And the first thing a rational businessman would do when making a significant profit is pay off his absurdly-high interest debts. And if the risk is high and he nevertheless had the funds to cover losses, the most rational thing to do with those funds would be to loan them and thereby get rid of his high-interest debt. No rational person would have $50,000 in a bank account and still borrow the equivalent of $50,000 in BTC at exorbitant rates.

Is there something erroneous in that reasoning? You've done everything from getting offended to calling me names to making ad hominem arguments -- you've even tried to hurt my feeling and bully me into shutting up. But the one thing you've not done is shown that my argument is actually incorrect.